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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-22-2013 02:50 PM
00silverTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post


Is that your other vehicle
It's garaged now, the suspension was too much for my back; and, alas, the horses are no longer...
06-22-2013 12:39 PM
Kilroy
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00silverTJ View Post
Bronze, Etruscan; locked, on 33's, 2 HP. Unfortunately they had not figured out the 4x4 thing yet.
Is that your other vehicle
06-22-2013 11:22 AM
LiquidDragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
I think the best solution for you would be to simply stick with owning your beloved Ford products and stay away from these vastly inferior Chrysler products. Problem solved.

As I have said before I am comparing the rust on my 2000 jeep wranglers frame to the frame on my 1999 Ford F150's frame because they two were built about the same time and both had the same mileage. I am also comparing it to the F150 because I personally seen these trucks being built at the factory and I know first hand what was done to the trucks as they made it along the assembly process. It doesn't mean that I don't like jeeps and this wrangler is my 5th wrangler to date because they are my second favorite vehicle after early VW bugs. Sorry if the truth hurts but the fact is that Chrysler let their product go to crap and didn't even take the time to treat the exposed components under their vehicles that were "trail rated" and probably figured people like you would just shrug their shoulders and say I guess I didn't wax my frame enough so its all my fault for driving my vehicle on the roads that it was designed to be driven on. good job being a lemming
06-22-2013 09:40 AM
00silverTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
I think chariot frames were wooden. Just like some early cars and some mid-century British cars.
Bronze, Etruscan; locked, on 33's, 2 HP. Unfortunately they had not figured out the 4x4 thing yet.
06-22-2013 09:29 AM
Kilroy BUT, Hickory is best, and Oak is popular! At least for automotive.
06-22-2013 09:29 AM
Patrick H
Quote:
would like to also point out that the pictures that I posted of my F150 had no rust on the frame after 100,000 miles and I NEVER washed the bottom of the truck of...... NEVER and I and I have driven it all over the United States from Virginia to California and as far north as New Hampshire during the winter and even spent a good deal of time in Dayton, Ohio. The pictures that I took of the truck shows the frame and the bottom of the bed and those parts are not plastic they are treated metal parts and hardware that didn't rust after 100,000 miles unlike the pictures of my jeep that I posted that has rusted completely through weld joints and sections of the frame because of poor quality.
I think the best solution for you would be to simply stick with owning your beloved Ford products and stay away from these vastly inferior Chrysler products. Problem solved.
06-22-2013 09:17 AM
00silverTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
I think chariot frames were wooden. Just like some early cars and some mid-century British cars.
There has to be a Lebanese factory built on the site of a former Phoenician chariot factory that made cedar chariot frames.

Cedar is known to last a very long time in salt water.

They have an e-mail coming.
06-22-2013 09:06 AM
Kilroy I think chariot frames were wooden. Just like some early cars and some mid-century British cars.
06-22-2013 08:44 AM
00silverTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post

That Jeep frame you have pictured was made in a facility that was around before WWI. .
That's worthy of ridicule.

That's like saying a Maserati is based on ancient technology because the plant it was assembled in was built on the former site of a chariot factory dating to the Roman Republican period.

Perhaps the Maserati has a bronze frame? Bronze is fairly resistant to corrosion. I think I'll send them an email to see if they can do something for us Rust-Belt jeepers.
06-22-2013 07:36 AM
LiquidDragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post
Don't cry because you bought a used Jeep and the PO did not care for it properly....and you were not educated enough to know what to look for....fact is that you do not live in Arizona and therefore you just need to take precautions to offset your environmental downsides.
I would like to also point out that the pictures that I posted of my F150 had no rust on the frame after 100,000 miles and I NEVER washed the bottom of the truck of...... NEVER and I and I have driven it all over the United States from Virginia to California and as far north as New Hampshire during the winter and even spent a good deal of time in Dayton, Ohio. The pictures that I took of the truck shows the frame and the bottom of the bed and those parts are not plastic they are treated metal parts and hardware that didn't rust after 100,000 miles unlike the pictures of my jeep that I posted that has rusted completely through weld joints and sections of the frame because of poor quality. A car built in 2000 shouldn't have the same issues as a car built in the 1930's. I would also like to point out that even if the Assembly plant's for the jeep was built before WWI doesn't mean that the technology being used to assemble the jeeps didn't change. All most every part used in vehicle assembly is built off sight and shipped to the assembly plants to be built including the frames. Some companies get the frames from the builders already treated and some companies treat the frames and other metal body parts at the assembly plants. When I purchased the jeep the outsides of the frame and every spot that you could see when leaning down to look under the jeep when I purchased it was nice and clean and shinny so I assumed it was the same up and under on the inside of the frame as well PLUS when vehicles are inspected properly in Virginia the frames are checked but mine obviously wasn't inspected properly because it has a Virginia inspection sticker on it with the dealerships name that says it passed and I am in the process of dealing with that issue now to have the dealership buy the jeep back. After I purchased the jeep I did take it to have the undercarriage washed off because I was going to be doing a lift and other things and that is when I found all of the damage. after taking it through the car wash and having it pressure washed most of the shinny paint on the outside of the frame came off and revealed the rust.

this is what the jeep looked like the day I purchased it.


and this is what the frame looked like after taking it through the car wash to have the under body pressure washed off.
06-22-2013 07:19 AM
vtjohn The Virginia Safety Inspection ( at $16 for an annual sticker) is a poor reference for a vehicle purchase. I happen to work at a dealership (not Jeep) with a tough inspector, but brakes/belts/tires/windshield chips are about the extent of the inspection for a basis of rejection. In fact, only one wheel even needs to be pulled to check brakes. $16 ain't gonna get you a full vehicle inspection. In fact my 2001 Wrangler just passed inspection with the check engine light on and no mention of it from the service guys of another shop(I already knew it is a bad O2 sensor).
06-22-2013 04:58 AM
KaiserJeep After the TJ frames were painted and baked, they in fact WERE dunked in a liquid wax/oil rustproofing. This wax coating is sometimes called "frame juice", when hot sun or hot exhaust causes it to run out of one of the frame holes. It is light blue, and it is the ONLY protection for the inside of the frame. You can conserve it by:

1) Never submerging the frame in a river or mudhole.
2) Never pressure washing the frame, use cold water low pressure only.
3) Never use a solvent or Simple Green or anything else on the frame.

I grant you, it's not like real paint or rustproofing. But it is applied before rust starts. After nine years, you can still see traces of it under my California Jeep, with no rust. But then again, there are barely any traces of rust on my 1967 Jeepster frame.
06-22-2013 02:46 AM
trojaneuph
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post

Actually I am quite familiar with frames rusting on Jeeps. I assume nothing and think you have warrant in your complaint......but it is falling on deaf ears and I can tell ya why....

That Jeep frame you have pictured was made in a facility that was around before WWI. Ford trucks rusted for years all over the place until the late 90's redesign, and most of the body panels were plastic then anyway....but yes many other manufacturers of ladder frame type vehicles were coating frames using advanced engineering.....meanwhile Jeep was trying to stay afloat with both a modern facility and a solid owner.

The fact remains that the frame rot corrosion could have been prevented with someone who cared about washing salt off their vehicle during the winter. Period.

The back half of my 1978 CJ-5 (blizzard year) frame rotted out 100% around 94, It was in kinda bad shape when I got it in 89. Rebuilt it and sold it last year. My TJ has been on the road everyday since spring 04 and gets washed by someone who does not want to see a frame rot after 10 years.

I can post pics of plenty of places that can and will rust on any Jeep...and there will still be nothing you can do about it. My DS front fender and a seam on the tub are easily worse off than my TJ frame. Some winters are harsh and some are not...it goes on and on...

Don't cry because you bought a used Jeep and the PO did not care for it properly....and you were not educated enough to know what to look for....fact is that you do not live in Arizona and therefore you just need to take precautions to offset your environmental downsides.
POW!! Sorry I like to stir pots.
06-21-2013 10:01 PM
toolmantim
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidDragon View Post
I love it when people like you assume and try to talk trash about something that you obviously don't know or understand. my complaint is that Chrysler didn't treat the frames and underbody of the jeeps that they were selling even though they knew very well that they are used in all kinds of driving conditions. Obviously Ford understands and Ford actually treats the body, frame and all the components under their trucks.
Actually I am quite familiar with frames rusting on Jeeps. I assume nothing and think you have warrant in your complaint......but it is falling on deaf ears and I can tell ya why....

That Jeep frame you have pictured was made in a facility that was around before WWI. Ford trucks rusted for years all over the place until the late 90's redesign, and most of the body panels were plastic then anyway....but yes many other manufacturers of ladder frame type vehicles were coating frames using advanced engineering.....meanwhile Jeep was trying to stay afloat with both a modern facility and a solid owner.

The fact remains that the frame rot corrosion could have been prevented with someone who cared about washing salt off their vehicle during the winter. Period.

The back half of my 1978 CJ-5 (blizzard year) frame rotted out 100% around 94, It was in kinda bad shape when I got it in 89. Rebuilt it and sold it last year. My TJ has been on the road everyday since spring 04 and gets washed by someone who does not want to see a frame rot after 10 years.

I can post pics of plenty of places that can and will rust on any Jeep...and there will still be nothing you can do about it. My DS front fender and a seam on the tub are easily worse off than my TJ frame. Some winters are harsh and some are not...it goes on and on...

Don't cry because you bought a used Jeep and the PO did not care for it properly....and you were not educated enough to know what to look for....fact is that you do not live in Arizona and therefore you just need to take precautions to offset your environmental downsides.
06-21-2013 10:26 AM
LiquidDragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post
I kinda laugh when people compare Jeeps with Vette's, and Deloreans....

I live in the heart of the rustbelt where we get snow every year and I don't recall seeing a corvette on the road when snow is on the ground...and why would you...your just gonna do spin-outs the whole way there

There is nothing wrong with the TJ frames....other than they have no drain holes.

Actually I also compared it to a 1999 F150 that owned and sold but here is a few pictures to show that a truck that is driven ALL year round even in the snow on salted roads and after 102000 miles doesn't look anything like my jeeps frame. I love it when people like you assume and try to talk trash about something that you obviously don't know or understand. my complaint is that Chrysler didn't treat the frames and underbody of the jeeps that they were selling even though they knew very well that they are used in all kinds of driving conditions. Obviously Ford understands and Ford actually treats the body, frame and all the components under their trucks.

here is the frame and mileage at the time I took the pictures




here are pictures of the frame on my jeep that has 105000 miles on it


06-20-2013 08:13 PM
00silverTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
What you don't get is that even ......

What you also don't get is that stainless steel ... .

Blah blah blah...

What you don't get, as my opening sentence said, is that this inquiry was for "chits AND giggles". You missed the second part and focused on the first...

And you are clueless about the sufferings of salt-belt jeepers; among many other things.

Aside from "Zen an The Art of Motorcycle Maintenence"; I would also like to suggest Aesops "Fables".

And I have not heard back from Delorean; go figure.

Cheers, Mike
06-20-2013 05:10 PM
toolmantim I kinda laugh when people compare Jeeps with Vette's, and Deloreans....

I live in the heart of the rustbelt where we get snow every year and I don't recall seeing a corvette on the road when snow is on the ground...and why would you...your just gonna do spin-outs the whole way there

There is nothing wrong with the TJ frames....other than they have no drain holes.
06-20-2013 02:56 PM
Tomdata Don't buy any used car without inspecting for accident and environmental damage. If you are not capable of inspecting it properly then take it to a reputable third party repair shop and pay them to inspect it.

The $100ish you pay for the inspection on a used car is totally worth it. Any seller confident in the car they are selling should have no problem with this. Most used car dealers are used to people asking for this and they will let you take the car anywhere you want for the inspection without even leaving them a $$ deposit.

Don't go to your normal repair guy and definitely don't go to anyone recommended by the seller. Goto a reputable shop (good online reviews, AAA rating, etc.) neither of you has ever been to and pay them to check it out.. That way there is no reason for the shop to skew their results and no one can feel cheated or feel the need to dispute the facts. If there is any doubt after the third party inspection take it to another third party shop and get a second opinion.
06-20-2013 11:06 AM
LiquidDragon Or to keep it simple it would be nice if Chrysler and other manufacturers would treat all the exposed metal components under their vehicles to last more than 15 years and replace the ones that didnt last under normal everyday use. the issue that comes up is when vehicles get older they are usually traded in or sold and people like myself as a third owner of a vehicle with only 105,000 miles was sold a vehicle at fair market value only to find out that it canít even pass the Virginia safety inspection and the cheapest place that i have found to replace the frame quoted me $4,800 and that doesnít replace everything else under the jeep that has rusted out like the steering knuckles and the suspension components. I have now had my jeep for two months and only put 500 miles on it and now i cant drive it and I am stuck fighting to get the dealership to buy a vehicle back that cant pass the state safety inspection even though the dealership sold it with a safety inspection sticker that says it passed even though it can't.
06-20-2013 10:26 AM
SAABseanSCANIA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
What you don't get is that even the very best quality of steel will rust & be consumed in rust belt areas if it's left to rust without care. It's not a quality thing at all, and you can have cheap quality stainless steel too... just look at most of the junk that China passes off as "stainless steel" which eventually rusts.

What you also don't get is that stainless steel is simply not as strong as standard steel is. If stainless steel would make such a great frame, why didn't the Delorean car with stainless steel body come with a stainless steel frame? Nope, not even the Delorean's frame was made from stainless steel, it was made from epoxy coated conventional steel.
Jerry is right. Stainless merely means that the alloy carries a min of 10.5% chromium; meaning it's corrosion resistant properties are enhanced.... it's not invincible. Stainless will succumb to corrosion. The comment about the quality of the steel, particularly Chinese products, is absolutely true. Remember, 10.5% minimum chromium meets the requirements to market as "stainless"; that's it. Stainless doesn't classify the mechanical properties of the steel; stainless can be incredibly strong; in fact by definition, it's stronger (but not by application!). "Strength" of the material can be defined in many ways, not just it's overall tensile strength. Heat treatment of martensitic SS can be mildly tailored to application to develop the needed TS/YS/E; with that being said, a cheaper stainless alloy could be incredibly "strong" by definition but with decreased ductility needed to flex and absorb mechanical forces. Plus I'll add in, that it would be UNGODLY expensive to use the correct stainless materials and filler materials to fabricate the frame.

The comment about the navy painting their ships: ships are constructed out of typically ordinary strength steel (A36 or ABS Grade A), what Jerry calls standard steel, in most locations throughout the hull and sometimes higher strengths along the sheer strakes, CVKs, and bilge rolls. Long story short, the hull hogs and sags (much like a flexing Jeep frame); for this reason, the hull (and our jeep frames) must be constructed of a material that can handle the repetitive flexing without fracturing due to fatigue. It has nothing to do with protective coatings or the susceptibility of the material to corrosion.

If they were to fabricate an OEM style frame out of a stronger and corrosion resistant alloy I would definitely want the MTR for the steel. I've seen too many things go wrong with the use of stainless steels as a marketing ploy.
06-20-2013 07:25 AM
LiquidDragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
If I owned an early Corvette, I suspect that even in restorable condition in boxes missing half the bolts it is still worth more than any early TJ which may have something to do with what parts are available.

I don't know that S/S is a bad idea, I do know that the value of using it rapidly diminishes when you cut or weld on it. It is an awesome material in the right applications and I don't know if any of us on here know enough about it to make that call in this application.

And lest we forget, S/S like aluminum and steel comes in many grades and alloys and they are not interchangeable. I know for an almost certainty that I would not like a frame out of the same S/S that Jeep uses on the exhaust systems which is likely a 400 series.
I was just commenting on here because someone else posted that big companies donít use it because it isnít as good as steel. I have restored vettes before and I know the cost of restoring one and I also know that even though TJ's arenít worth as much a an older corvette I do know that the top of the line suspension setup for a TJ cost about 2X as much as a top of the line custom suspension for an older corvette. I only joined this conversation because I recently purchased a 2000 jeep wrangler that ended up having a fraudulent inspection sticker so a dealership could put it on their lot and sell it and now I am stuck with a jeep that has a rusted out frame and is only 13 years old yet my 1976 corvette with more miles on it has no rust at all on the frame inside or out and itís the original frame to the car and yes the car was driven in bad weather and even in the snow with salt on the roads but that was almost 20 years ago and now it just sits in a garage. It seems more of a quality issue with the jeep frames than anything else and it seems that jeep used substandard steel in the production of their frames which caused so many of them to rust out prematurely as well as the lack of care that some people have taken to clean the salt off of the bottoms of their jeeps. What is really crazy is Chrysler discontinued the jeep TJ frame even though itís a known issue and now we have to either buy a used frame and hope its better than the POS that its replacing or we have to spend about $4,000 to get a new quality frame to replace one that is at most 16 years old. If Chrysler would have spent a few extra dollars and coated the frames and suspension components like they did the body tubs then we wouldnít have this issue. I only say that because there is very little rust on the body tub of my 2000 jeep compared to the frame and suspension. I remember going to the ford assembly plant where my mom worked in Norfolk when I was a kid and they had an area next to the main road with new unpainted but treated body and suspension parts that were just sitting on the ground NOT RUSTING and I asked my mom why they left it there and she told me it was so everyone can see the quality of parts used to build Ford trucks. I owned a 1999 F150 and sold it with 175000 miles on it and the frame and body didnít have any rust AT ALL on it and I drove the truck everywhere even on salted roads in Ohio, New Hampshire and mostly in Virginia.
06-19-2013 10:52 AM
KaiserJeep If any of you have ever congratulated yourself because you "upgraded" to stainless hardware, I have bad news for you. Stainless steel is a steel alloy using various metals and there are HUNDRED's of "stainless steel" alloys, although only about 20 are far commoner than others. They are denoted by numbers representing the various metals comprising the alloy.

===> every one of the 20 common stainless alloys is located below regular steel on the "anodic index" chart that indicates susceptability to galvanic corrosion. This happens:



The stainless hardware causes the regular steel (body or frame) to rust. So if you have any stainless hardware, you need to replace it with raw, unplated steel hardware.

If you were able to get a stainless frame, every piece of hardware would need to be replaced with a matching stainless alloy, to avoid galvanic corrosion. You would need stainless brackets, stainless suspension, body tub, etc. Basicly every part attached to the frame would either need to be a matching stainless alloy, or electrically insulated to avoid galvanic corrosion.

The stainless Jeep frame is just not gonna happen, guys. If it did happen, the life of the rest of the steel in the Jeep would be very short.
06-19-2013 09:47 AM
lynn Stainless typically doesn't forgive flexing, it work hardens; making it much more susceptible to cracking than mild steel. Using it in the frame of a vehicle that is likely to repeatedly flex the frame isn't a good idea.
06-19-2013 09:20 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidDragon View Post
If stainless steel isuch a bad idea then why is it being done?

Corvette Replacement Frames
If I owned an early Corvette, I suspect that even in restorable condition in boxes missing half the bolts it is still worth more than any early TJ which may have something to do with what parts are available.

I don't know that S/S is a bad idea, I do know that the value of using it rapidly diminishes when you cut or weld on it. It is an awesome material in the right applications and I don't know if any of us on here know enough about it to make that call in this application.

And lest we forget, S/S like aluminum and steel comes in many grades and alloys and they are not interchangeable. I know for an almost certainty that I would not like a frame out of the same S/S that Jeep uses on the exhaust systems which is likely a 400 series.
06-19-2013 09:01 AM
LiquidDragon If stainless steel isuch a bad idea then why is it being done?

Corvette Replacement Frames
06-19-2013 08:59 AM
Zurn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesboy View Post
Just wait till you get her up to 88 MPH....
06-19-2013 07:38 AM
LiquidDragon how much and where to order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomdata View Post
Tube chassis with integrated roll cage.. Powdercoated , balanced and blue printed.
06-19-2013 07:37 AM
LiquidDragon I emailed them and they make frames for TJ's as well but they start at $3,500 and that is without the galvanized dip. they say the frame is the same as original only stronger because they say they use thicker steel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserJeep View Post
We already have an answer for you rust belt guys. Throttle Down Kustoms makes the hot dip galvanized Jeep frame, coated with zinc inside and outside.



Only $2,437.99. Probably half the cost of stainless steel. Available for '76 to '86 CJ-7's (very close to TJ dimensions). Can be set up to accept any TJ suspension as an option. If we could get them to move the tub mounts to the TJ positions, it would be a bolt-on swap.
06-16-2013 09:51 AM
lordmike I love internet arguments!
06-15-2013 03:27 PM
Tomdata Tube chassis with integrated roll cage.. Powdercoated , balanced and blue printed.
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