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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-24-2013 09:25 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
X2. They don't look directional to me either so I sent Nitto an email earlier this morning asking if they are directional or not.
Nitto replied, Terra Grapplers aren't directional.

"Dear Jerry Bransford,

Thank you for contacting Nitto Tire.

Regarding your inquiry, all the Nitto Grapplers are non-directional.

For further support, please contact our consumer relations department at your convenience. The number is 888-529-8200 and they are available Mon-Fri, 8:00am to 5:00pm PT.

Thank you,

Nitto Technical Department

Nitto Tire U.S.A
Fueled by Enthusiasts"
06-24-2013 06:15 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
One of the best things about living in America is that we're all free to believe what we want, no matter how those beliefs are formed. If you want to believe that is how a LSD works, you are welcome to that belief. I am done with you on the subject of LSDs, I have now wasted more of my time than was warranted.

Annnnnd QED. But I agree with the bolded portion. Time to make some money today.


Limited slip differential (LSD) - Quaife
Limited-slip differential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.torsen.com/files/Traction...ol_Article.pdf
Limited Slip Differential - Wikicars
Lockers, Limited Slips and other Differentials Explained
06-24-2013 05:23 PM
BC.WK.TJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnlimitedRubicon View Post

Welcome

Yes. I wouldn't do it if there is a significant difference in the tread depth between the four and the spare. Also, depending on how old the spare is it can begin to chunk if pressed in to regular service. Leave it as an emergency spare. If/When you get new tires, buy five and incorporate the five tire rotation from the start.
Good call on the age of tires... I never thought of that. I just bought the jeep a few weeks ago and it wasn't driven much over the past 5 or 6 years, the tires are still about 80-85% with a brand new spare.

Thanks for your help.
06-24-2013 05:07 PM
Jerry Bransford One of the best things about living in America is that we're all free to believe what we want, no matter how those beliefs are formed. If you want to believe that is how a LSD works, you are welcome to that belief. I am done with you on the subject of LSDs, I have now wasted more of my time than was warranted.
06-24-2013 05:00 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
You're misunderstanding it because you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You're just cutting & pasting a small part from that article which you haven't fully grasped yet. When you truly grasp the subject, then you'll understand what I have been trying to explain.

Read my article too, don't be so stubborn as to not read something that for most people, explains something in such a way that it becomes understandable without need for math.
I read it, but it's beside the point.

Take, for example, an open differential, 50:50 split. One tire is spinning with 20 of resistance, an eLSD applies the brake to that side. Say, the resistance it applies is 50. The 50:50 split allows the maximum torque output of the other side to increase to 70 or until it spins. If it doesn't spin, more brake is added until it does. Wheel 1 still sees 20, while wheel 2 progressively sees more until (e.g., at 70) it spins too and you make a nice 11 on the pavement instead of a 1 tire fire, like you would with a purely open differential.

The operation of that brake is moved into the differential housing itself with a mechanical LSD. Either way, the actual output torque delivered by the shaft to the wheels is not 50:50, which is the whole point of the LSD in the first place. Stating that 50% of the input torque to the system is used for each side says nothing to the actual output torque at the wheels from each side of the system due to intentional losses from adding resistance. Hence, the difference in torque. The torque ratio noted above is a result of the maximum amount of friction that can be added to any one side in order to differ torque at the wheels.

Your stance is equivalent to gathering the ingredients for 12 1oz cookies, eating a portion of the dough, then baking 12 3/4oz cookies and claiming you still made 1oz cookies because you used all the ingredients.
06-24-2013 04:55 PM
UnlimitedRubicon
Quote:
Originally Posted by BC.WK.TJ View Post
Hello everyone! Newbie here...

Welcome


Quote:
Originally Posted by BC.WK.TJ View Post
Is it ever to late to throw in your new spare tire into the rotation?

Yes. I wouldn't do it if there is a significant difference in the tread depth between the four and the spare. Also, depending on how old the spare is it can begin to chunk if pressed in to regular service. Leave it as an emergency spare. If/When you get new tires, buy five and incorporate the five tire rotation from the start.
06-24-2013 04:11 PM
BC.WK.TJ Hello everyone! Newbie here... Is it ever to late to throw in your new spare tire into the rotation?
06-24-2013 04:05 PM
jherrington This guy is good^. Told me to get a jack stand under my axle, I went to go grab one, boom, there goes the axle on the ground. Hahahaha.
06-24-2013 03:58 PM
flflash Tires are one of the most expensive items we replace on our vehicles I think it's very poor form of you to come on here and attempt to tell people to neglect normal maintenance on such an expensive item due to Your "Theory" for that reason:

Fellow Posters and Readers of this thread.

Please do not adhere to n00g7's "Theory" of non needed tire rotation. Please maintain your tires with proper inflation, rotation and alignment they'll give you better performance and last much longer.

"The preceding was a Public Service Announcement brought to you by the one and only Florida Flash!!! Automotive Technician and Photographer Extraordinaire!"
06-24-2013 03:50 PM
Jerry Bransford You're misunderstanding it because you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You're just cutting & pasting a small part from that article which you haven't fully grasped yet. When you truly grasp the subject, then you'll understand what I have been trying to explain.

Read my article too, don't be so stubborn as to not read something that for most people, explains something in such a way that it becomes understandable without need for math.
06-24-2013 03:45 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
That article doesn't disagree with what I said earlier, you are just hoping it does.. A torsion style LSD, like the Detroit Truetrac is, still splits the available torque 50:50. It and every other type of LSD simply increases the amount of torque delivered... but it still splits that increased amount of torque 50:50 evenly between the sides.

This is a subject I have taught, you're grasping at straws here. Read the article I wrote which explains how it works.

"Letting the torque DIFFERENCE between drive axles (T1-T2) be represented by 'Td', it follows that:
T1 = (Trg + Td)/2, and
T2 = (Trg - Td)/2

From this, the maximum RATIO of torque which can be supported between drive axles (i.e., bias ratio) is expressed by the following proportion:

torque bias = T1/T2 : 1"

It's saying exactly the opposite of what you're saying: output torque T1 can differ from T2. Thus it is not "inherently" 50:50.
06-24-2013 03:31 PM
flflash
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
Having a lead foot and soft compound tires as shitty as the F1 eagles = frequent replacement. PSS are good for 30k+ same conditions. Still don't replace or rotate the front ones at that mileage, so what's your point, that you burn up rears with a 400+ HP sports car? Captain obvious to the rescue...
I can take pictures for you next time I have one in, you can understand pictures correct? Yes the F1's are soft tires thus they show the failure to rotate and wear evenly at a greater rate than a harder tire. Most Corvettes with F1 tires will have the RR worn out and the inner edges of both front tires worn. This is due to the fact that Even with a LSD the RR tire does more work than the LR due to torque loading from the engine.

Next time you drive a vehicle other than a peddle car or tricycle stand on the gas pedal watch the left front raise and the RR lower, you just unequally loaded the tires with or without a LSD. There are many other examples but I just don't want to overload you at this time.
06-24-2013 03:29 PM
Jerry Bransford That article doesn't disagree with what I said earlier, you are just hoping it does.. A torsion style LSD, like the Detroit Truetrac is, still splits the available torque 50:50. It and every other type of LSD simply increases the amount of torque delivered... but it still splits that increased amount of torque 50:50 evenly between the sides. The net result of an LSD is more torque being delivered to the tire with the most traction... but that same increased amount of torque is also being delivered to the tire with the least amount of traction. Both sides are getting an equal share of the additional level of torque the LSD can help generate. More torque, yes, but it is still being split 50:50 to the left/right tires.

This is a subject I have taught, you're grasping at straws here. Read the article I wrote which explains how it works.
06-24-2013 03:23 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
I dunno where you're coming up with this stuff but I sure don't agree. For example, torque delivery from an LSD equipped axle is split 50:50 between the left and right sides. What is surprising to those who don't understand how differentials work (the majority of people) is that torque delivery from an 'open' axle is also split precisely 50:50 between the left and right sides. Yes, an open axle always splits the torque 50:50 too. Do a little research on this before you start arguing that I'm wrong on this.

Edit: Or read the short article I wrote years ago on torque which also covers how LSDs work... 4x4 & Torque answers - JeepForum.com
What?
http://www.torsen.com/files/Traction...ol_Article.pdf


In the case of an eLSD you are correct because it's actually an open diff, but not for a mechanical one, not at all.
06-24-2013 02:59 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by flflash View Post
One of the many freedoms we share here in the United States of America is the right to our own opinion, I base my opinion of Decades in the Automotive Industry.

You to are allowed your own opinion no matter how flawed and groundless your theory may be!

Good example of "Staggered Tires" "Directional Tires" and "LSD equipped vehicle" is your Chevrolet Corvette the past ten years....tire life expectancy is 12 to 15 thousand miles. Kinda shits a hole right through your theory dosent it.
Having a lead foot and soft compound tires as shitty as the F1 eagles = frequent replacement. PSS are good for 30k+ same conditions. Still don't replace or rotate the front ones at that mileage, so what's your point, that you burn up rears with a 400+ HP sports car? Captain obvious to the rescue...
06-24-2013 02:52 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
The amount of rubber you shed is the same regardless. And YES, an LSD means your rear tires are going to wear more evenly from L to R because the of the nature of torque delivery from the LSD. They're either both slipping or both gripping. You don't have that with an open diff.

In a staggered setup, tires are never rotated, and the world does not end. If you want to make them even between F&R every oil change, go for it, but one f/r swap at the right time gets both sets to the wear bars at the same time.
I dunno where you're coming up with this stuff but I sure don't agree with much of anything you're claiming.

For example, torque delivery from an LSD equipped axle is split 50:50 between the left and right sides. What is surprising to those who don't understand how differentials work (the majority of people) is that torque delivery from an 'open' axle is also split precisely 50:50 between the left and right sides. Yes, an open axle always splits the torque 50:50 too. Do a little research on this before you start arguing that I'm wrong on this.

Edit: Or read the short article I wrote years ago on torque which also covers how LSDs work... 4x4 & Torque answers - JeepForum.com
06-24-2013 02:46 PM
flflash
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
The amount of rubber you shed is the same regardless. And YES, an LSD means your rear tires are going to wear more evenly from L to R because the of the nature of torque delivery from the LSD. They're either both slipping or both gripping. You don't have that with an open diff.

In a staggered setup, tires are never rotated, and the world does not end. If you want to make them even between F&R every oil change, go for it, but one f/r swap at the right time gets both sets to the wear bars at the same time.
One of the many freedoms we share here in the United States of America is the right to our own opinion, I base my opinion of Decades in the Automotive Industry.

You to are allowed your own opinion no matter how flawed and groundless your theory may be!

Good example of "Staggered Tires" "Directional Tires" and "LSD equipped vehicle" is your Chevrolet Corvette the past ten years....tire life expectancy is 12 to 15 thousand miles. Kinda shits a hole right through your theory dosent it.
06-24-2013 02:33 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by flflash View Post
Took you an entire paragraph to explain you have no idea what your talking about!

I repeat the idea is to wear all tires evenly for best performance and tire life. LSD's have no bearing on that.

The amount of rubber you shed is the same regardless. And YES, an LSD means your rear tires are going to wear more evenly from L to R because the of the nature of torque delivery from the LSD. They're either both slipping or both gripping. You don't have that with an open diff.

In a staggered setup, tires are never rotated, and the world does not end. If you want to make them even between F&R every oil change, go for it, but one f/r swap at the right time gets both sets to the wear bars at the same time.
06-24-2013 01:52 PM
Jerry Bransford Not to mention that very few tires are directional and that front tires tend to wear slightly faster due to tire scrub from the amount of toe-in that is required.
06-24-2013 01:33 PM
flflash
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
No, you don't "need" to. Plenty of manufacturers now state it's unnecessary to rotate your tires. For example, how do you rotate with a staggered setup? You don't. Further, because many treads are directional, you don't even swap sides, so what's the point beyond increased wear on the drive tires, provided they wear evenly, which they should with an LSD or eLSD? If you leave everything as is you simply replace the rears about twice as often as the fronts or you could do one swap of F to R to replace at the same time.
Took you an entire paragraph to explain you have no idea what your talking about!

I repeat the idea is to wear all tires evenly for best performance and tire life. LSD's have no bearing on that.
06-24-2013 01:26 PM
Maitre My fav: front straight back. back x-cross to front. I leave the spare alone.
06-24-2013 01:19 PM
Neil F.
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
No, you don't "need" to. Plenty of manufacturers now state it's unnecessary to rotate your tires. For example, how do you rotate with a staggered setup? You don't. Further, because many treads are directional, you don't even swap sides, so what's the point beyond increased wear on the drive tires, provided they wear evenly, which they should with an LSD or eLSD? If you leave everything as is you simply replace the rears about twice as often as the fronts or you could do one swap of F to R to replace at the same time.
Obviously if there mitigating factors, you can't rotate with some configurations or only move the f/r

Depending on weight distrubution l/r and or the roads you travel, the l/r can wear differently.

In the directional/same size f/r you are better off having them wear evenly. It's better not to have mixed tires. If you decide to change brand/treads or they stopped making the rears you now have to replace all 4 or go with a mixed set.
06-24-2013 01:06 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskier View Post
Says who? Just because this is a Jeep site doesn't mean we all own JUST Jeeps. Even at that it's still not a good idea IMO to have low tread on your steering axle and new tread on the drive axle.
You replace the tires when they get low regardless of where they are located. That's what the wear bars are for. If you're above the wear bar, it's a perfectly good tire for front or rear.

Also, I didn't say for all vehicles, or even all jeeps for that matter. If you have an open diff in the rear you should rotate often.
06-24-2013 01:01 PM
freeskier
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
We don't have AWD vehicles. And yes, twice as often because the fronts last twice as long.
Says who? Just because this is a Jeep site doesn't mean we all own JUST Jeeps. Even at that it's still not a good idea IMO to have low tread on your steering axle and new tread on the drive axle.
06-24-2013 12:59 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskier View Post
So you say you don't "need" to rotate your tires, but then say if you don't you need to replace the rear tires twice as often? Why would you do that? This may be a Jeep site but this is bad advice to be giving out if someone also owns an AWD vehicle. Just rotate and buy 4 new tires at once, it's not a good idea to have mismatched tread. Discount Tires does free rotation/balancing for life if you buy from them, I take advantage of that every oil change.

We don't have AWD vehicles though. And yes, twice as often because the fronts last twice as long.
06-24-2013 12:56 PM
freeskier
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
No, you don't "need" to. Plenty of manufacturers now state it's unnecessary to rotate your tires. For example, how do you rotate with a staggered setup? You don't. Further, because many treads are directional, you don't even swap sides, so what's the point beyond increased wear on the drive tires, provided they wear evenly, which they should with an LSD or eLSD? If you leave everything as is you simply replace the rears about twice as often as the fronts or you could do one swap of F to R to replace at the same time.
So you say you don't "need" to rotate your tires, but then say if you don't you need to replace the rear tires twice as often? Why would you do that? This may be a Jeep site but this is bad advice to be giving out if someone also owns an AWD vehicle. Just rotate and buy 4 new tires at once, it's not a good idea to have mismatched tread. Discount Tires does free rotation/balancing for life if you buy from them, I take advantage of that every oil change.
06-24-2013 12:50 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by flflash View Post
Wether you have LSD or not you still need to rotate tires on a regular basis. The idea is to evenly wear the tires On All Four corners.

No, you don't "need" to. Plenty of manufacturers now state it's unnecessary to rotate your tires. For example, how do you rotate with a staggered setup? You don't. Further, because many treads are directional, you don't even swap sides, so what's the point beyond increased wear on the drive tires, provided they wear evenly, which they should with an LSD or eLSD? If you leave everything as is you simply replace the rears about twice as often as the fronts or you could do one swap of F to R to replace at the same time.
06-24-2013 12:28 PM
VTBalla34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
X2. They don't look directional to me either so I sent Nitto an email earlier this morning asking if they are directional or not.
Ditto. I can't think of why they would be. Nitto is going to be wondering why they are getting innundated with emails asking about this all of a sudden lol
06-24-2013 11:52 AM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskier View Post
The Trail Grapplers don't look directional. I don't really know of any truck/offroad tire that is directional. If they are directional you'll find an arrow on the sidewall showing direction of rotation. If they are asymmetrical you'll find a "This side out" on the sidewall.
X2. They don't look directional to me either so I sent Nitto an email earlier this morning asking if they are directional or not.
06-24-2013 11:49 AM
freeskier The Trail Grapplers don't look directional. I don't really know of any truck/offroad tire that is directional. If they are directional you'll find an arrow on the sidewall showing direction of rotation. If they are asymmetrical you'll find a "This side out" on the sidewall.
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