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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-30-2013 01:23 AM
ohioviper I will believe it when I see it.
10-30-2013 12:50 AM
Mike- The three I've had in Jettas were very smooth. But, it's a jeep - nothin else is smooth. A "v" will add cost, weight, and fuel consumption with marginal increase in torque or power. All my big diesels D(DS60, cummins, etc.) are straight blocks.
10-29-2013 04:15 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike- View Post
The I-4 in the liberty has oodles of power and torque and is a pretty quick. The issue is all the electronics and pollution crap, and def, and a new engine no one can fix for a while.
The problem with 4 banger diesels...they sound and run like tractor motors, they are not smooth. Granted, modern 4 bangers are a lot better, but they are nothing like their V6 and V8 brothers.
10-29-2013 03:32 PM
Mike64
Quote:
Originally Posted by krumby View Post
I think a diesel jeep in Europe is about 75k
No, its around 54,000 dollars (Tax included).
10-29-2013 01:13 AM
Mike-
Bull ?..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKBrad View Post
Absolutely agreed. A V8 is needed. Doubt it will be offered with upcoming CAFE regs. My '13 with a 3.6 is just adequate. Too bad the 4.0 got regulated out of existence. I prefer torque down low, something no JK has ever had.
The I-4 in the liberty has oodles of power and torque and is a pretty quick. The issue is all the electronics and pollution crap, and def, and a new engine no one can fix for a while.
10-28-2013 09:47 PM
gohard
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
Diesels have a bad reputation in the US for the average car buyer. Couple that with a serious added cost of a diesel vs a gas power vehicle, and regular car buyers will shy away. In Europe for instance, the diesel version of a car (ie a Golf TDI) is the CHEAPEST version of the car, while in the US, the diesel is the most expensive version (ie a Grand Cherokee....a hemi is a $2500 option while a diesel is a $5000 option.) Add in the urea, more expensive servicing, etc, and the average buyer is doomed to not get it. Putting a diesel in the GC was the single dumbest move that I have seen by an auto manufacturer. It was a motor no one (majority) wanted, in a vehicle that didn't need it.
Totally agree with you. The average car buyers are dumb here on this continent. They just don't know any better then buying cars-trucks with 70'sh mpg, and that is the way BIG OIL wants it. We are getting shafted here bad, and have been for a long time.
10-28-2013 07:42 PM
Hokieneer
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtecR View Post
I anticipated waiting out 2 years to see if the diesel would happen. All things considered I still got a '13 JK figuring the first 1-2 yr models will need kinks worked out before becoming awesomely desirable... meaning we will all be waiting 5 yrs realistically IF this happens.

Most important question that I'm not sure was addressed is: WILL IT COME IN MANUAL??
BMW did not put a manual in their 335d due to the overwhelming torque. No manual tranny would be an absolute deal breaker.
Yeah that might be an issue for the current tranny because I don't believe it is rated for torque of the 3.0l diesel but hopefully they will make a new one!
10-28-2013 07:05 PM
KtecR I anticipated waiting out 2 years to see if the diesel would happen. All things considered I still got a '13 JK figuring the first 1-2 yr models will need kinks worked out before becoming awesomely desirable... meaning we will all be waiting 5 yrs realistically IF this happens.

Most important question that I'm not sure was addressed is: WILL IT COME IN MANUAL??
BMW did not put a manual in their 335d due to the overwhelming torque. No manual tranny would be an absolute deal breaker.
10-28-2013 02:25 AM
krumby I think a diesel jeep in Europe is about 75k
10-14-2013 05:23 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike64 View Post
I'm from Germany. The most Jeeps over here (Wrangler, GC, Commander) are diesel because of the high gas prices. We pay up to 7 Dollar per gallon.
The price for Gas is a Little higher as for Diesel. This are the facts in germany and the most of western europe. I have a JKU with the 2.8 VM diesel.
It's a powerful Engine. The high torque pushes the Wrangler from 0-60 very fast and its no problem to make 110 mph on the highway.
I make about 440 Miles with one fill. I Love my diesel. I had a liberty diesel before and I loved it too. It. was a nice and powerful car without any mayor problems.
This is what I can tell you from my experiences with this fantastic engines here from diesel country germany.

regards

Mike
In Germany, whats the price of a diesel wrangler vs a gas one?
10-14-2013 04:24 PM
lando76 Chyrsler will never admit to a diesel for 2016 up until the last minute. They have two years worth of gasoline jeeps they need to sale, and that news would dampen those numbers big time.

Probably didnt even need to post that.
10-14-2013 03:21 PM
Mike64 I'm from Germany. The most Jeeps over here (Wrangler, GC, Commander) are diesel because of the high gas prices. We pay up to 7 Dollar per gallon.
The price for Gas is a Little higher as for Diesel. This are the facts in germany and the most of western europe. I have a JKU with the 2.8 VM diesel.
It's a powerful Engine. The high torque pushes the Wrangler from 0-60 very fast and its no problem to make 110 mph on the highway.
I make about 440 Miles with one fill. I Love my diesel. I had a liberty diesel before and I loved it too. It. was a nice and powerful car without any mayor problems.
This is what I can tell you from my experiences with this fantastic engines here from diesel country germany.

regards

Mike
10-14-2013 02:39 PM
338Lapua
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
I think we drifted off topic a bit. IF you read the whole thread, you'd see Im the biggest proponent of diesel. I love em.

My point was this....when people want a vehicle with the best EPA mileage, they usually get the smallest motor, which is the V6 in the case of the GC. Most people, even those that don't know cars, that bigger motors=worse gas mileage, so they tend to go with smaller motors. The average customers that buy hemis don't care about gas mileage. So the REAL fair comparison would be a V6 vs a Diesel. Now, for the enthusiast like us, things get more complicated, because you are injecting power into the mix. For me personally, I care about the usable power of a diesel. I would pay the $5000 to have a 3.0 diesel in my wrangler, with the SAME gas mileage, let alone an improved number. I want the power, and the tuning ability. For diesels to catch on big in the US, the government needs to start treating it like it treats the BS battery powered toasters on wheels. All the major players (Honda, Toyota, VW, etc) have MASSIVE success with diesels in all markets except the US. The fact is, our government has an agenda, and thats where its headed. They will choke the widespread diesel sales.
Exactly.....

Emissions is the biggest issue right now with releasing Diesel powered passenger vehicles (3/4 ton and heavier get a break on the emissions). Getting a Diesel to pass emissions is expensive....so some of that "Diesel Preminum" price is the engine and some is the exhaust system. That is why it took so long to finally deliver a 1/2 ton truck with a Diesel. Ford and Dodge had diesel mule vehicles (fullsize trucks and SUV's) 8 years ago that would get well over 30 MPG but could not pass the up coming emissions standards. Europe has alot looser emissions laws.
10-14-2013 02:25 PM
Dakovich Had a 2000 VW Jetta TDI, bought it new and the premium was only $1100. Several long road trips exceeded the EPA mpg estimates (>55mpg). City average was 44mpg...AND, the more people modified these motors, the better the mpg was. It was a small, cheap, easily modified motor and I miss it every day.
10-14-2013 01:53 PM
Lusus_Naturae Dang dfwislander! Texas prices are nice, eh? We do pretty good here - I almost dread going back north every year based on the gas prices alone (love the food though).
10-14-2013 01:45 PM
Lusus_Naturae
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOK View Post
The Geo Prism was just a rebadged Toyota Corolla. Funny that they bought that because of a bad experience with Toyota.
My dad liked the foreign cars, but I showed him how much easier it was to do some maintenance on domestics (he isn't mechnical at all, so keep that in mind). The cost of maintaining the Geo's was cheaper for him - even with a foreign drivetrain base. I love my dad, but he truly is a mechanics dream - I doubt he has changed a headlight bulb, and aside from topping up the wiper fluid (not even sure if he does this now), I think he just puts gas in his cars.

Geo Metros are a rebadged version of the Suzuki Swift more or less. The Geo Prizm was a Toyota Sprinter/Corolla. They got the Metro first, I think they based the purchase of the Prizm on how much they liked the Metro.
10-14-2013 11:23 AM
krumby I am in Europe for 6 months and have gotten a diesel BMW to drive while I am here. My poor jeep is in my barn back in the states.
I love my diesel car here. Much more power than my jeep in all ways and awesome mileage too.
I know EPA is different here than the us but I see no black smoke and they have two types of diesel here at the pumps. I will certainly entertain the diesel jeep when it comes out for sure.
10-14-2013 12:40 AM
dfwislander
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post

I think we drifted off topic a bit. IF you read the whole thread, you'd see Im the biggest proponent of diesel. I love em.

My point was this....when people want a vehicle with the best EPA mileage, they usually get the smallest motor, which is the V6 in the case of the GC. Most people, even those that don't know cars, that bigger motors=worse gas mileage, so they tend to go with smaller motors. The average customers that buy hemis don't care about gas mileage. So the REAL fair comparison would be a V6 vs a Diesel. Now, for the enthusiast like us, things get more complicated, because you are injecting power into the mix. For me personally, I care about the usable power of a diesel. I would pay the $5000 to have a 3.0 diesel in my wrangler, with the SAME gas mileage, let alone an improved number. I want the power, and the tuning ability. For diesels to catch on big in the US, the government needs to start treating it like it treats the BS battery powered toasters on wheels. All the major players (Honda, Toyota, VW, etc) have MASSIVE success with diesels in all markets except the US. The fact is, our government has an agenda, and thats where its headed. They will choke the widespread diesel sales.
Then your real comparison is a done deal, the diesel wins. I was comparing upgrades and the cost is nill. And my wife is no enthusiast. But she like everyone likes the power. She'd give up some if it made sense. But since the v6 offers 5mpg, not wroth it. In the 70's you could get diesels in many vehicles. I would argue that they already choked it out. But it's primed for a comeback with the clean diesel and thier own EPA requirements about to kick in.
10-13-2013 11:50 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfwislander View Post
Really? Cause you've been trying to convince that it doesn't make sense in anything but wranglers that are enthusiasts, lol. OK check this. Just checked jeep.com website. Build a GC. The upgrade option to hemi (what my wife currently drives) is 2695. The diesel 4500. So that's only 1805 diff. Using your $12/month per thousand on finance, that's straight up only $20/month without getting a good deal. Keeping in mind the pentstar would never be an option. She drove it, sucked too much to only gain 5mpg. 20/month man! Now. I track our gas. She averages 14.1mpg in her hemi. They are claiming up to 30 with the diesel. Let's say it only gets 28 real world. That's DOUBLE what she sees. Heck, even in a high price area where it's .50 cents more, you gotta be saving money. If you do that math (which gets too complicated for me) and tell me it doesn't I'll have to trust you. But damn. Only filling up every 6 weeks vs every 3 now sure would feel like it. And when you are looking at a mere 1800 in the grand scheme of a 40k vehicle it just seems negligible.
I think we drifted off topic a bit. IF you read the whole thread, you'd see Im the biggest proponent of diesel. I love em.

My point was this....when people want a vehicle with the best EPA mileage, they usually get the smallest motor, which is the V6 in the case of the GC. Most people, even those that don't know cars, that bigger motors=worse gas mileage, so they tend to go with smaller motors. The average customers that buy hemis don't care about gas mileage. So the REAL fair comparison would be a V6 vs a Diesel. Now, for the enthusiast like us, things get more complicated, because you are injecting power into the mix. For me personally, I care about the usable power of a diesel. I would pay the $5000 to have a 3.0 diesel in my wrangler, with the SAME gas mileage, let alone an improved number. I want the power, and the tuning ability. For diesels to catch on big in the US, the government needs to start treating it like it treats the BS battery powered toasters on wheels. All the major players (Honda, Toyota, VW, etc) have MASSIVE success with diesels in all markets except the US. The fact is, our government has an agenda, and thats where its headed. They will choke the widespread diesel sales.
10-13-2013 11:25 PM
dfwislander
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post

Preaching to the choir. You don't have to convince me on diesel.
Really? Cause you've been trying to convince that it doesn't make sense in anything but wranglers that are enthusiasts, lol. OK check this. Just checked jeep.com website. Build a GC. The upgrade option to hemi (what my wife currently drives) is 2695. The diesel 4500. So that's only 1805 diff. Using your $12/month per thousand on finance, that's straight up only $20/month without getting a good deal. Keeping in mind the pentstar would never be an option. She drove it, sucked too much to only gain 5mpg. 20/month man! Now. I track our gas. She averages 14.1mpg in her hemi. They are claiming up to 30 with the diesel. Let's say it only gets 28 real world. That's DOUBLE what she sees. Heck, even in a high price area where it's .50 cents more, you gotta be saving money. If you do that math (which gets too complicated for me) and tell me it doesn't I'll have to trust you. But damn. Only filling up every 6 weeks vs every 3 now sure would feel like it. And when you are looking at a mere 1800 in the grand scheme of a 40k vehicle it just seems negligible.
10-13-2013 11:07 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfwislander View Post
I dunno about getting a sweet deal, it was just a cheap car. Only financed like 14k. And in fairness I don't think the diff was 5k on that VW. But my memory may be wrong. In the end I knew it wasn't really much of a cash savings, but month to month cash flow it was better. It does change the game too with the diff in gas mileage which was huge in that model VW. The gas model was rated at 25 the diesel 42. I saw 39 in real numbers on average. I just think you are short changing whether people would buy it if it was an option. The VW's at the time the dealers here couldn't keep them though they were a smaller part of the inventory. But as soon as one hit the lot it was gone. The early GC numbers if real are impressive enough to say its viable I think. Gas mileage without sacrificing power, what's not to like.
Preaching to the choir. You don't have to convince me on diesel.
10-13-2013 10:37 PM
dfwislander
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubi513 View Post

Wish I could find diesel that cheap!
There is a gas station not too far from me here selling regular for 2.79. They don't sell diesel there though.
10-13-2013 10:36 PM
dfwislander
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post

Your point wasn't lost, its just that the numbers didn't add up for me. If you got the deal you said you did, then yes, you felt a cash flow improvement. However, the current average finance rate is $12 per $1000 financed, so a $5000 bigger price tag will yield a $60 a month price hike. IF you got it for only $20, then you got a sweet deal. That $60 is basically the extra gas tank that a diesel allows you to skip a month. I agree with you on the appearance of saving money though.
I dunno about getting a sweet deal, it was just a cheap car. Only financed like 14k. And in fairness I don't think the diff was 5k on that VW. But my memory may be wrong. In the end I knew it wasn't really much of a cash savings, but month to month cash flow it was better. It does change the game too with the diff in gas mileage which was huge in that model VW. The gas model was rated at 25 the diesel 42. I saw 39 in real numbers on average. I just think you are short changing whether people would buy it if it was an option. The VW's at the time the dealers here couldn't keep them though they were a smaller part of the inventory. But as soon as one hit the lot it was gone. The early GC numbers if real are impressive enough to say its viable I think. Gas mileage without sacrificing power, what's not to like.
10-13-2013 10:07 PM
Rubi513
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfwislander View Post
I guess my point was completely lost. You are one of those types that does the big picture math to prove he's saving money long term. I conceded that, but I stand on my point that cash flow savings and feel is real for most people. Iy absolutely was for me.

Your gas prices on diesel are nuts. Saw the sign at my station out today. 2.99 regular unleaded, 3.18 diesel.
Wish I could find diesel that cheap!
10-13-2013 10:07 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfwislander View Post
I guess my point was completely lost. You are one of those types that does the big picture math to prove he's saving money long term. I conceded that, but I stand on my point that cash flow savings and feel is real for most people. Iy absolutely was for me.

Your gas prices on diesel are nuts. Saw the sign at my station out today. 2.99 regular unleaded, 3.18 diesel.
Your point wasn't lost, its just that the numbers didn't add up for me. If you got the deal you said you did, then yes, you felt a cash flow improvement. However, the current average finance rate is $12 per $1000 financed, so a $5000 bigger price tag will yield a $60 a month price hike. IF you got it for only $20, then you got a sweet deal. That $60 is basically the extra gas tank that a diesel allows you to skip a month. I agree with you on the appearance of saving money though.
10-13-2013 10:01 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfwislander View Post
When regular unleaded hit 3.54 here this summer, diesel was 3.54 also. Same price. Why is it so much higher up there?
Im not sure, NJ has some of the cheapest gas in the US.

Interesting chart
USA National Gas Price Heat Map - GasBuddy.com
10-13-2013 09:48 PM
dfwislander
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfwislander View Post

I guess my point was completely lost. You are one of those types that does the big picture math to prove he's saving money long term. I conceded that, but I stand on my point that cash flow savings and feel is real for most people. Iy absolutely was for me.

Your gas prices on diesel are nuts. Saw the sign at my station out today. 2.99 regular unleaded, 3.18 diesel.
When regular unleaded hit 3.54 here this summer, diesel was 3.54 also. Same price. Why is it so much higher up there?
10-13-2013 09:46 PM
dfwislander
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
I'll run it for fun....assuming we take 20mpg for the GC Hemi....average lease of 12000 miles a year, at the current low of $3.04, we have an annual fuel bill if $1824 (assuming for the sake of this debate gas prices remain constant.

Now, lets take the same average 12000 miles a year with a diesel at 30mpg (optimistic, but fair is fair) at my current $3.73 per gallon of diesel. Using those numbers, we have an annual fuel bill of $1492, again, assuming prices remain constant.)

Taking $1824 and $1492, we have an annual difference of $332.

Now we take the initial $5000 diesel engine investment, and divide it by the $332 annual savings...which gives us...15.06, so lets call it 15 even. That means, if neither vehicle has any problems or unforseen failures, it will take 15 years to BREAK EVEN on the purchase. Lets say you have a heavy foot, and flog your hemi around, you will shave that difference to MAYBE 9-10 years. Also, a 15 year "ownership" at 12K a year yields 180,000 miles, FAR FAR more miles than the average owner keeps their vehicle.

Like I said, in the US, (most of the US I guess) diesels make the same financial sense as hybrids if your goal is to save money. Power, absolutely, thats a perfectly logical reason.

The hemi is also not really a fair comparison, because to the average joe that doesn't know anything about cars and wants an SUV with good MPG, they will go with the V6 vs diesel, not the hemi vs diesel, and the amount of years it will take to make up the difference will be even higher.
I guess my point was completely lost. You are one of those types that does the big picture math to prove he's saving money long term. I conceded that, but I stand on my point that cash flow savings and feel is real for most people. Iy absolutely was for me.

Your gas prices on diesel are nuts. Saw the sign at my station out today. 2.99 regular unleaded, 3.18 diesel.
10-13-2013 02:07 PM
Hokieneer I guess in my specific application a diesel makes more financial sense than others. here in WV diesel is about .40-.50 more than gas but the bigger issue here is the terrain which is hard on mpgs. I have a diesel passat and it is rated at 30 mpg city and 40 mpg highway and it is the only vehicle I have ever used that has outperformed its rating I have never averaged below 34 mpg even when I run it really hard and 2 weeks ago I went to Ohio and averaged 50.7 mpg. Other gas cars I have had around here almost never come near their ratings my jeep is averaging 15.8 mpg across 6300 miles. Personally I do not think 30 mpg highway is an outrageous number. And I personally think 180k miles is not an unreasonable amount of miles on a car but I guess I am not the average consumer. I guess to the average consumer the comparison is more likely to be 3.6 vs 3.0 but even with a cursory look at power and tow rating the 3.0l is a fair comparison to the hemi. Also are we ignoring the typically higher resale for diesels if we are trading in earlier? But we really don't know till they hit the lots. I am probably going to be getting one for the family just waiting on the dealer to call and let me know when they get here! Then we can talk real world numbers
10-13-2013 01:30 PM
NFRs2000NYC I'll run it for fun....assuming we take 20mpg for the GC Hemi....average lease of 12000 miles a year, at the current low of $3.04, we have an annual fuel bill if $1824 (assuming for the sake of this debate gas prices remain constant.

Now, lets take the same average 12000 miles a year with a diesel at 30mpg (optimistic, but fair is fair) at my current $3.73 per gallon of diesel. Using those numbers, we have an annual fuel bill of $1492, again, assuming prices remain constant.)

Taking $1824 and $1492, we have an annual difference of $332.

Now we take the initial $5000 diesel engine investment, and divide it by the $332 annual savings...which gives us...15.06, so lets call it 15 even. That means, if neither vehicle has any problems or unforseen failures, it will take 15 years to BREAK EVEN on the purchase. Lets say you have a heavy foot, and flog your hemi around, you will shave that difference to MAYBE 9-10 years. Also, a 15 year "ownership" at 12K a year yields 180,000 miles, FAR FAR more miles than the average owner keeps their vehicle.

Like I said, in the US, (most of the US I guess) diesels make the same financial sense as hybrids if your goal is to save money. Power, absolutely, thats a perfectly logical reason.

The hemi is also not really a fair comparison, because to the average joe that doesn't know anything about cars and wants an SUV with good MPG, they will go with the V6 vs diesel, not the hemi vs diesel, and the amount of years it will take to make up the difference will be even higher.
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