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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-17-2013 02:11 PM
gbendezu
Quote:
Originally Posted by flflash View Post
I don't care if you use synthetic or mineral change it on a regular basis ( No Don't Go 10,000 miles between changes ) And CHECK your oil at least every other oil change! No body ever checks their oil level anymore, honestly whens the last time you saw anyone at a gas station checking their oil?
hey! I still check my oil, I come from the world of celicas gt (their zz1-fe engines were notorious for burning oil) so I come with the paranoia of blowing the engine from starvation since it happened with a multiple celicas hahaha
07-17-2013 02:06 PM
gbendezu
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdy35 View Post
I just picked up some mobile 1 full synthetic oil. My jeep has conventional oil in it from the PO but only has 27000 miles in it. Do you think that it is a good Idea to change over to synthetic or stay with conventional. Also, can I go longer between oil changes with synthetic
the general rule is to stick with whatever it has, due to problems stated above, however, with an engine this new, I don't think it would hurt it. also dino oil should be changed every 3k miles while synthetic will usually last 4.5k. just make sure that if youre gonna start using synthetic to stick with it.
07-17-2013 01:53 PM
Chuck59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
To me, there is a lot of mass hysteria going on with the whole ZDDP thing. Not to mention that 1) we aren't (I certainly am not) seeing mass engine failures from today's reduced levels of ZDDP and 2) running too much ZDDP can cause catalytic converters to fail prematurely.
Jerry,

Visit some engine builder forums. There are many many lifter motor failures going on right now. Not just Jeep's. At my local shop, he has 4 in-house at this moment. All with cam / Lifter wear.

You can have too much ZDDP. Never more than 2000 ppm as I understand it.

Your VR1 oil is top notch. I am using Brad Penn "Green". Both about 1650 ppm ZDDP new, and is used / reduced to about 800 ppm ZDDP at 3000 miles of use.
07-17-2013 01:44 PM
Verf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
To me, there is a lot of mass hysteria going on with the whole ZDDP thing. Not to mention that 1) we aren't (I certainly am not) seeing mass engine failures from today's reduced levels of ZDDP and 2) running too much ZDDP can cause catalytic converters to fail prematurely.
The big thing to remember is ZDDP levels aren't that important to all of todays engines. But they are very important to flat tappet engines like my '71 Corvette 350 and '06 Rubi I6 4.0 for wear.

While most of the world went to a roller cam which induces less friction and less wear, we have what we have and it still works great just has different needs.
07-17-2013 10:42 AM
Jerry Bransford To me, there is a lot of mass hysteria going on with the whole ZDDP thing. Not to mention that 1) we aren't (I certainly am not) seeing mass engine failures from today's reduced levels of ZDDP and 2) running too much ZDDP can cause catalytic converters to fail prematurely.
07-17-2013 08:34 AM
LJDan Or just do what I do and buy a 6 pack of zddp from Eastwood and add it when you change your oil...
07-17-2013 08:34 AM
Chuck59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Yes that was an interesting and VERY surprising find.

While using a laser temperature gun will show a differential case is cooler when filled with synthetic lubricant, further study found something VERY surprising about temperatures... which is why many custom axle builders like Currie now require (!) that only conventional/dino gear lubes be used. For example... their axle warranty will be voided if an axle fails & they discover it was filled with any type of synthetic gear lube. Yes, really.

What did they discover? That the synthetic was not sinking the heat out of the gears as well which is why the differential case was running cooler... they discovered the synthetic gear lube was nearly acting like a thermal blanket. Which is why the axle housing is cooler when a synthetic gear lube is used... but the gears inside are actually running hotter. Yes, true.

How/Why was this discovered? In the extreme level events axles like from Currie & Dynatrac are used in, they were seeing an unexpectedly high ring & pinion failure rate during competitions when the axles were filled with synthetic gear lubes. It puzzled them so test jigs were built. That the gears were running hotter when lubed by synthetic gear lubes was a shock to everyone, no one expected it at all. So it was found that synthetic gear lubes just aren't as effective at extracting heat out of the gears as a conventional gear lube is... which, again, shocked everyone involved in the lab tests.

If you don't believe me, here are the instructions from one axle builder who was one who was seeing the problem and now requires conventional gear lubes be used in their axles to keep the warranty in effect.

http://www.currieenterprises.com/ins...ions_adder.pdf near the bottom on page three...

Per their instructions "You will want to use only a good name brand 85-140 weight gear oil such as 9-Plus oil, Torco, Kendall, or Valvoline. Never use any type of synthetic oil, synthetic blend oil, store brand oil, or Sta-Lube brand oil." Their words, not mine.
Thank you so much Jerry for this information. Appreciate factual, well researched data such as this that you have posted.
07-17-2013 08:12 AM
Chuck59 Generally ZDDP is limited by government in ALL passenger "road" oils irrespective of brand. Performance or Off Road or special application oils are not included in these regulations.

I'd still hang for the VR1 or Brad Penn "Green" 10-30, in my humble opinion.
07-16-2013 09:50 PM
Verf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck59 View Post

I would have them order the VR1 or Brad Penn myself. I never thought about oil much until a catastrophic failure occurred at 150,000 miles in my ride. I did lots of research and came to the conclusion that ZDDP is important in lifter engines such as my 4.0L.
It's why I'm curious about the ZDDP numbers in the NAPA Synthetic. VR1 and NAPA are both made by Ashland, and Valvoline is known for good zinc content....
07-16-2013 08:45 PM
Chuck59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verf View Post
So went to NAPA to get some VR1 10w30 conventional and they don't stock the 10w30. But they had a house brand called, well, NAPA Synthetic 10w30. Its made by Valvoline, which is made by Ashland.

My question is, has anyone used it and does anyone know the ZDDP levels (zinc/phosphate)

Its on sale right now for $3.49, which is a hell of a price for ANY oil these days. Bought a case of it and a couple NAPA Gold filters (made by WIX).

Nothing will hurt short term with changes at 3k, but just wondering the levels.

Thanks,

Butch
I would have them order the VR1 or Brad Penn myself. I never thought about oil much until a catastrophic failure occurred at 150,000 miles in my ride. I did lots of research and came to the conclusion that ZDDP is important in lifter engines such as my 4.0L.
07-14-2013 09:07 PM
Verf
NAPA Synthetic anyone?

So went to NAPA to get some VR1 10w30 conventional and they don't stock the 10w30. But they had a house brand called, well, NAPA Synthetic 10w30. Its made by Valvoline, which is made by Ashland.

My question is, has anyone used it and does anyone know the ZDDP levels (zinc/phosphate)

Its on sale right now for $3.49, which is a hell of a price for ANY oil these days. Bought a case of it and a couple NAPA Gold filters (made by WIX).

Nothing will hurt short term with changes at 3k, but just wondering the levels.

Thanks,

Butch
07-12-2013 01:09 PM
ninjaturtle0 I use Vr1 conventional
07-12-2013 12:49 PM
Chuck59 I am blessed that Brad Penn is a available local to me and at only $4.17 a quart. I also like the way it adheres to parts after shut down. It just sticks well. That means it is there at start up. Start up is where the majority of engine wear occurs as parts wait for lubricant to arrive.
07-12-2013 12:38 PM
Verf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck59 View Post

He turned me on to Brad Penn 10-30 "Green" oil.

It has higher levels of ZDDP which our 4.0's need.

New oils have reduced levels of ZDDP to protect catalytic converters.

Change every 3000 miles as the ZDDP gets "used up" and levels decrease over time.
Brad Penn is really good stuff, but can be hard to find. NAPA carries Valvoline VR1 (conventional & synthetic) it has elevated levels of ZDDP (zinc prolly being the most important) that is needed in my '71 Stingrays flat tappet 350. I do a lot of research for the lifeblood of my cars.
07-12-2013 12:31 PM
Chuck59 I had substancial cam / lifter wear until failure including bent pushrods. So now I have new cam, lifters, and rods. I had used Mobile 1 oil religiously. I spoke to performance shop "old timer" who showed me four 4.0's that he was redoing with similar wear.

He turned me on to Brad Penn 10-30 "Green" oil.

It has higher levels of ZDDP which our 4.0's need.

New oils have reduced levels of ZDDP to protect catalytic converters.

Change every 3000 miles as the ZDDP gets "used up" and levels decrease over time.
06-30-2013 03:01 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
Might have come across a little more concise - typing from my phone - but I think I actually said exactly what you said. I meant the same anyway.
I finally caught that you were saying the same thing I did after my initial post, I edited mine to indicate I agree with you.
06-30-2013 01:40 PM
Rolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
What service interval does your official export-version Jeep Owner's Manual say? Dealers are not necessarily the last authority, many of them are clueless & don't always make good recommendations. I've had more than one Jeep dealer swear by absolutely wrong information.
Just pulled the manual again just to make sure. Service intervals every 12 000km/7500 miles. I actually have another manual which is not from an export model and this one says every 3000 miles.
06-30-2013 01:36 PM
Rolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
You actually have that backwards. While using a laser temperature gun will show a differential case is cooler when filled with synthetic lubricant, further study found something VERY surprising about temperatures... which is why many custom axle builders like Currie now require (!) that only conventional/dino gear lubes be used. For example... their axle warranty will be voided if an axle fails & they discover it was filled with any type of synthetic gear lube. Yes, really.

What did they discover? That the synthetic was not sinking the heat out of the gears as well which is why the differential case was running cooler... they discovered the synthetic gear lube was nearly acting like a thermal blanket. Which is why the axle housing is cooler when a synthetic gear lube is used... but the gears inside are actually running hotter. Yes, true.

How/Why was this discovered? In the extreme level events axles like from Currie & Dynatrac are used in, they were seeing an unexpectedly high ring & pinion failure rate during competitions when the axles were filled with synthetic gear lubes. It puzzled them so test jigs were built. That the gears were running hotter when lubed by synthetic gear lubes was a shock to everyone, no one expected it at all. So it was found that synthetic gear lubes just aren't as effective at extracting heat out of the gears as a conventional gear lube is... which, again, shocked everyone involved in the lab tests.

If you don't believe me, here are the instructions from one axle builder who was one who was seeing the problem and now requires conventional gear lubes be used in their axles to keep the warranty in effect.

http://www.currieenterprises.com/ins...ions_adder.pdf near the bottom on page three...

Per their instructions "You will want to use only a good name brand 85-140 weight gear oil such as 9-Plus oil, Torco, Kendall, or Valvoline. Never use any type of synthetic oil, synthetic blend oil, store brand oil, or Sta-Lube brand oil." Their words, not mine.
Might have come across a little more concise - typing from my phone - but I think I actually said exactly what you said. I meant the same anyway.
06-30-2013 01:26 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
It has been shown that in differentials synthetic oil runs cooler that dino oil. The interesting finding was that the actual gears run hotter than with dino oil indicating that the dino oil, in the case of differentials anyway, "extract" more heat from the gears than synthetic.
Yes that was an interesting and VERY surprising find.

While using a laser temperature gun will show a differential case is cooler when filled with synthetic lubricant, further study found something VERY surprising about temperatures... which is why many custom axle builders like Currie now require (!) that only conventional/dino gear lubes be used. For example... their axle warranty will be voided if an axle fails & they discover it was filled with any type of synthetic gear lube. Yes, really.

What did they discover? That the synthetic was not sinking the heat out of the gears as well which is why the differential case was running cooler... they discovered the synthetic gear lube was nearly acting like a thermal blanket. Which is why the axle housing is cooler when a synthetic gear lube is used... but the gears inside are actually running hotter. Yes, true.

How/Why was this discovered? In the extreme level events axles like from Currie & Dynatrac are used in, they were seeing an unexpectedly high ring & pinion failure rate during competitions when the axles were filled with synthetic gear lubes. It puzzled them so test jigs were built. That the gears were running hotter when lubed by synthetic gear lubes was a shock to everyone, no one expected it at all. So it was found that synthetic gear lubes just aren't as effective at extracting heat out of the gears as a conventional gear lube is... which, again, shocked everyone involved in the lab tests.

If you don't believe me, here are the instructions from one axle builder who was one who was seeing the problem and now requires conventional gear lubes be used in their axles to keep the warranty in effect.

http://www.currieenterprises.com/ins...ions_adder.pdf near the bottom on page three...

Per their instructions "You will want to use only a good name brand 85-140 weight gear oil such as 9-Plus oil, Torco, Kendall, or Valvoline. Never use any type of synthetic oil, synthetic blend oil, store brand oil, or Sta-Lube brand oil." Their words, not mine.
06-30-2013 01:13 PM
Rolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldJeepCJ5 View Post
I predate synthetics. I have always gotten good service out of good name brand oil. I remember when Mobil1 came out and all the problems they had with it.
Then they got that fixed, and people started switching to synthetics slowly.

I resisted until I had the superiority of synthetics shown to me and then verified it myself.
Long story about a guy who switched to Amsoil in the rear end of a truck that kept burning up bearings and boiling the oil.
Its too late to go into it now. I'll post if later if anyone is interested.

I can post the final thing that convinced me.

I have been running trucks with NP205 transfer cases for a while. Never managed to break one, only ever had one problem with one that got sand in past a seal and had to be rebuilt.

Since I often go through deep water, I don't have floor carpets in my truck. On a hot day, running hard down the highway, I can feel the heat from the 205 through the floorboards.

Slide under, after a hard run, and it cannot leave my hand on the case.
After the rear end incident, I bought some Amsoil 75W90 and changed out the Valvoline 75W90 that was in it.

Hottest day, hardest run, never got too hot to touch again. It got hot, but I would guess at least 100 degrees cooler.

I run Amsoil 0W30 in all my small air cooled engines such as lawn mowers. 20W50 in most everything else.
Switched from Havoline 20W50 to Amsoil in my 1947 8N Ford tractor.
On a hot day pulling two bottom plows, the oil pressure went from less than 10 to over 20 lbs.

If I were to buy a car I intended to trade off after a couple of years, I would use the cheapest name brand oil I could.
If it required synthetic from the factory, I would use the cheapest name brand synthetic.
For the ones I intend to keep forever, I use Amsoil. I'm sure other brands are just as good, but I have a local dealer and get good pricing for bulk.

I use their motor oil in everything, their gear lube in all diffs and gearboxes, and even their bearing grease.

Is it worth it? No way to tell.
Say you get 300K out of an engine with regular oil before it starts burning some.
Would you have gotten 500K with synthetic? Or only 200K?
Impossible to know.

I do know that in real world friction tests, such as gearbox temps., it drastically reduces friction, and by inference, wear.

From all the SAE tests I have seen, I think that a preluber would do more to reduce bearing and cam wear in an engine than anything else.
Synthetics are supposed to help with startup lube. If so, then they are probably worth the cost.
It has been shown that in differentials synthetic oil runs cooler that dino oil. The interesting finding was that the actual gears run hotter than with dino oil indicating that the dino oil, in the case of differentials anyway, "extract" more heat from the gears than synthetic.
06-30-2013 01:12 PM
Jerry Bransford What service interval does your official export-version Jeep Owner's Manual say? Dealers are not necessarily the last authority, many of them are clueless & don't always make good recommendations. I've had more than one Jeep dealer swear by absolutely wrong information.
06-30-2013 01:09 PM
Rolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Every 7500 miles doesn't take into account varying driving conditions from gentle to severe. Like easy highway driving, short start & stop driving, driving in very dusty/dirty conditions, etc. that Jeeps are commonly exposed to. I would be ok with a 7500 mile interval if I was driving in easy conditions like extended highway driving, but I'd be down closer to a 3000 mile interval if my Jeep was being exposed to dusty dirty conditions with lots of starting/stopping.
Jerry I agree and actually do service mine more regularly same as I have always done on my bikes as well as they are being used hard.

Thing is over here I think they actually take into account that Jeeps might be used offroad as all other manufacturers have 10 000 or 12 500 mile intervals. Our moderate weather might have something to do with it?
06-30-2013 11:37 AM
UFOtestpilot
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldJeepCJ5 View Post
I predate synthetics.
The first synthetic oil was created in 1877, and the first commercial production started in 1929 in Indiana. Doing good for your age!

FWIW: I use AMSoil in my bikes, and anything that sees track time or is oil/air cooled so I'm just ribbing you. I've been running Chevron supreme 10-30 I get at Costco in the jeep though, with regular changes of course.
06-30-2013 12:34 AM
OldJeepCJ5 I predate synthetics. I have always gotten good service out of good name brand oil. I remember when Mobil1 came out and all the problems they had with it.
Then they got that fixed, and people started switching to synthetics slowly.

I resisted until I had the superiority of synthetics shown to me and then verified it myself.
Long story about a guy who switched to Amsoil in the rear end of a truck that kept burning up bearings and boiling the oil.
Its too late to go into it now. I'll post if later if anyone is interested.

I can post the final thing that convinced me.

I have been running trucks with NP205 transfer cases for a while. Never managed to break one, only ever had one problem with one that got sand in past a seal and had to be rebuilt.

Since I often go through deep water, I don't have floor carpets in my truck. On a hot day, running hard down the highway, I can feel the heat from the 205 through the floorboards.

Slide under, after a hard run, and it cannot leave my hand on the case.
After the rear end incident, I bought some Amsoil 75W90 and changed out the Valvoline 75W90 that was in it.

Hottest day, hardest run, never got too hot to touch again. It got hot, but I would guess at least 100 degrees cooler.

I run Amsoil 0W30 in all my small air cooled engines such as lawn mowers. 20W50 in most everything else.
Switched from Havoline 20W50 to Amsoil in my 1947 8N Ford tractor.
On a hot day pulling two bottom plows, the oil pressure went from less than 10 to over 20 lbs.

If I were to buy a car I intended to trade off after a couple of years, I would use the cheapest name brand oil I could.
If it required synthetic from the factory, I would use the cheapest name brand synthetic.
For the ones I intend to keep forever, I use Amsoil. I'm sure other brands are just as good, but I have a local dealer and get good pricing for bulk.

I use their motor oil in everything, their gear lube in all diffs and gearboxes, and even their bearing grease.

Is it worth it? No way to tell.
Say you get 300K out of an engine with regular oil before it starts burning some.
Would you have gotten 500K with synthetic? Or only 200K?
Impossible to know.

I do know that in real world friction tests, such as gearbox temps., it drastically reduces friction, and by inference, wear.

From all the SAE tests I have seen, I think that a preluber would do more to reduce bearing and cam wear in an engine than anything else.
Synthetics are supposed to help with startup lube. If so, then they are probably worth the cost.
06-29-2013 10:49 PM
DBoat I would run syn, personally. I have for aroind 30 years or so. I even run it in my lawnmower and other yard equipment.
06-29-2013 09:51 PM
C-Ron
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBoat View Post
its kind of like, Coke or Pepsi? I run synthetic and have for over 35 years. Mostly Mobil 1,due to its overall availability. The real difference is at startup and at the very extreme of engine operations.
Regarding startup, there have been some studies that show drain back and leaving no oil film in the engine is greater with dyno oil, meaning little or no oil on the surfaces and having metal to metal friction until the oil is circulated. While synth oil does leave an oil film.
In regard to extreme conditions, suffice it to say, that it would be highly unlikely that your engine would ever be operated at that level.
I do it because of the first factor and it gives me better piece of mind. However, if you run dyno oil and change it and the filter at appropiate intervals, you are likely to be fine.
Dana

So if I only start my jeep up about once a week would I be better of using synthetic or is that not too long without a start?
06-29-2013 09:15 PM
wranglerbob1 AMSOIL for me in my Harleys and race engines--- but my jeep with 173K miles is running the same stuff that got it to the 173K miles
Also oil changes every 4 to 5K miles.
06-29-2013 07:41 PM
Jerry Bransford Every 7500 miles doesn't take into account varying driving conditions from gentle to severe. Like easy highway driving, short start & stop driving, driving in very dusty/dirty conditions, etc. that Jeeps are commonly exposed to. I would be ok with a 7500 mile interval if I was driving in easy conditions like extended highway driving, but I'd be down closer to a 3000 mile interval if my Jeep was being exposed to dusty dirty conditions with lots of starting/stopping.
06-29-2013 07:29 PM
Rolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
Newer engines are built to higher tolerances and the synthetic oil more tightly falls within the specific range the motor needs. The 4.0 is not such a motor, but I also don't care about spending a few bucks more on synthetic and lengthening out the oil change interval a bit. The proverbial 3k rolls around every few weeks, nah thanks. I change around 7k or when I feel like it. If I go through deep water or off-road in a lot of dust, fluids get changed sooner rather than later. FWIW I use the kendal synthetic.
Over here the dealer service intervals for all Chrysler vehicles are every 7500miles.
06-29-2013 12:55 AM
TJmama
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
Newer engines are built to higher tolerances and the synthetic oil more tightly falls within the specific range the motor needs. The 4.0 is not such a motor, but I also don't care about spending a few bucks more on synthetic and lengthening out the oil change interval a bit. The proverbial 3k rolls around every few weeks, nah thanks. I change around 7k or when I feel like it. If I go through deep water or off-road in a lot of dust, fluids get changed sooner rather than later. FWIW I use the kendal synthetic.
Thanks for the info! As a DD of a little over 50 miles round trip 4 day a week plus weekends, blink and 3000 miles have flown by! I do light off roading w no deep water, especially this year !
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