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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-19-2013 11:19 PM
GoldenSahara00 "Made in America" doesn't even mean that. Look it up. It's just a % of parts.

I can vouch for Engo on both quality and customer service. For the price it's the best option. If money isn't an issue get the Warn.
12-18-2013 10:10 AM
SEAICE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verf View Post
Unfortunately, I feel for the "ENGO USA" thing, thinking it was made in the USA, its not, its made in China like the others. However, I did get a good deal, though a forum vendor on a 10k with a 100' syth line and both wireless and remote controls.



Rather than PM, I'll ask up front. Are your winches built 100% in the United States of America with all parts made from materials received from distributors/vendors that are ONLY from the United States of America? I ask so specifically because in this day and age it is very hard to make ANYTHING with multiple electronic parts 100% American.
I notice there has not been an answer yet... Dealing with attorneys almost daily, I am not fooled by terms like (parts) "sourced from U.S. Manufacturers" or "assembled in the U.S.", which does not mean made in USA. Not to say that the product is not good, or that (at least part of) the sale profits don't remain in the U.S., but I'd like to know the truth about such things if it can be known.

4-wheeling since the 70s, the winch brands I know and trust have been Warn, Ramsey, Super Winch and Mile Marker. All of these brands back then were solely U.S. made. Not today. All have high-end products that are probably mostly made in the U.S., and lower-end products that are Chinese-sourced. Whether they’re assembled in Oregon, Oklahoma or Mexico, if the parts are Chinese-made, some money is going to China and the quality is suspect. I have no doubt that a Warn M8000 is a better winch than a VR8000 and has more U.S. content. That said, I think there are good Chinese winches out there and companies like Warn, Engo or Quadratrac can specify quality controls on their products from a Chinese winch manufacturer and deliver a better winch than what appears to be the exact same winch made for another company that does not care about QC. I think that's what you buy with a premium brand... Consistency, quality control and customer service.
12-18-2013 07:44 AM
cabenso Sorry to revive this, but I thought this would help NJO sleep at night. I just bought an Engo winch and put it on a hitch mount to winch out backwards or lend to a friend if need be. I'm very happy with the Warn. but we'll see how they compare.
08-19-2013 10:01 PM
Rubi513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jeeplvr View Post
When it comes down to it I think a decent winch,Engo,Ramsey etc will be just fine. Im a bit scarred since my warn which is supposed to be sealed,ended up getting water in the supposed "sealed" gear box.Props to Andy for sending me 2 gaskets but now I have a rusted gear assy.Just my .02
Look at this. Might make you feel better. At least yours still works
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/engo...al-263881.html
08-19-2013 09:46 PM
1jeeplvr When it comes down to it I think a decent winch,Engo,Ramsey etc will be just fine. Im a bit scarred since my warn which is supposed to be sealed,ended up getting water in the supposed "sealed" gear box.Props to Andy for sending me 2 gaskets but now I have a rusted gear assy.Just my .02
08-19-2013 08:39 PM
Verf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Closer reading of that article will indicate the Warn winch in question was a 9.5xp which is rated to pull 9,500 lbs. It only failed once its load reached 16,500 lbs., over 170% of what it is rated for. Not that many of our winches will ever reach even their rated winching capacities, let alone over 1.7x their rated capacities.

Do you really consider a winch only rated to 9,500 lbs. making it all the way to 16,500 lbs. (1.7X higher than its rating) before it failed something to ding it on? I sure don't.
Jerry, now your going to test an old mans memory here. Unfair. I typically don't buy magazines as these days are more filled with subscription cards and advertisement pages than content. But this particular day found me walking the grocery store with the bride. Exciting stuff. While walking by the mag aisle, saw a 4x4 mag with big letters... Winch Workout or something silly like that. As I was in the market for one, I picked it up off the shelf, leafed to the good stuff. I recall the Engo did fail, but only after being submerged and asking it to work underwater. I don't know about many of you, but I don't know how often that I'll ask a piece of electronic equipment to perform submerged without the benefit of a watertight plastic case, which none of these had. I also recall the Warn won the comparo in that magazine, but it failed pulling it's Jeep up the designated hill cause it's a battery killer. Yes, yes, I know, keep yer engine running. I get that. But that means unless you have a high output alternator, you are stressing and sending to and early grave an alternator. Again, nickel and dime stuff, especially if it's only getting used a dozen times a year, but all things to consider in my opinion.

Warn won that battle, so why did I go with Engo? Well, for one, I thought Engo was also American made. Two, it was half the price and more battery friendly. Three, side by side, pound for pound in the tests, Engo held their own with a similar warranty.

I'm sure there are prolly dozens of winch wars thru the years across the magazines, each changing the testing field for slightly different results to change winners to keep in favor of one or another of big paying advertisers....
08-19-2013 08:33 PM
JRoweMDN After dealing with wire on winches years ago I can say it is much nicer to use the synthetic line. I have not had cause to really use mine yet but I have pulled up some small stumps and done some other stuff with it that would not have been much fun with wire. I also feel much better knowing that the synthetic line will not come flying back as a missile.
08-19-2013 07:49 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verf View Post
... and in a magazine comparo the Warn winch failed to finish.
Closer reading of that article will indicate the Warn winch in question was a 9.5xp which is rated to pull 9,500 lbs. It only failed once its load reached 16,500 lbs., over 170% of what it is rated for. Not that many of our winches will ever reach even their rated winching capacities, let alone over 1.7x their rated capacities.

Do you really consider a winch only rated to 9,500 lbs. making it all the way to 16,500 lbs. (1.7X higher than its rating) before it failed something to ding it on? I sure don't.
08-19-2013 07:45 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by s14sh3r View Post
Jerry, any problems with synthetic line and heat?
No, at least not in the usual winching uses. What generates heat in the kinds of winches we typically use is the brake which is only used when winching in the 'Out' direction, like if you were lowering a Jeep down a cliff.
08-19-2013 05:57 PM
1jeeplvr
Quote:
Originally Posted by s14sh3r View Post
Jerry, any problems with synthetic line and heat? I know surface temps here can get 150 degrees + during the summer, I imagine they would be even higher in some of the areas you wheel. Will that weaken the line appreciably?
The most heat from your winch will be when using the brake on the winch.
08-19-2013 10:56 AM
Verf
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jeeplvr View Post
Engo is made in the U.S.A I dont think Ill buy another warn after my Warn one craps out.
Unfortunately, I feel for the "ENGO USA" thing, thinking it was made in the USA, its not, its made in China like the others. However, I did get a good deal, though a forum vendor on a 10k with a 100' syth line and both wireless and remote controls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warn Industries View Post
By the way guys, if you've ever got specific questions about our products, don't hesitate to PM me.

- Andy
Rather than PM, I'll ask up front. Are your winches built 100% in the United States of America with all parts made from materials received from distributors/vendors that are ONLY from the United States of America? I ask so specifically because in this day and age it is very hard to make ANYTHING with multiple electronic parts 100% American.

I'm a 20 year veteran and appreciate buying American and do when I can. However, at the time I was making my purchase, the VR series equivalent was twice price and in a magazine comparo the Warn winch failed to finish. And I get it, oddball things happen to the best made products. But the $400 difference gave room for another mod. Some may say I'll have to replace this winch before I'd have to replace the equivalent Warn. Maybe, they have the same warranty. Maybe not. Like someone said earlier, only time will tell.
08-19-2013 09:50 AM
NJO
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaRolln View Post

There's probably several reasons, not the least of which is that American labor is much more costly than Chinese labor.
Its all the advertising and marketing too. Warn has a monstrous budget for advertising. Their winches probably cost no more to produce than the rest of the companies. They dont use any better parts or materials than anyone else.
08-19-2013 09:47 AM
geiman I'm not Jerry, but yes heat can be an issue though probably not one you need to worry about. Typically the only time you will see issues with heat is powering out under load for extended periods of time, which is when the drum brake is in use thus creating the heat. For 99% of the people on this forum, that will probably never be an issue.

You'll have to refer to the manufacturer of your specific rope to see what temperatures it can withstand.
08-19-2013 09:39 AM
s14sh3r Jerry, any problems with synthetic line and heat? I know surface temps here can get 150 degrees + during the summer, I imagine they would be even higher in some of the areas you wheel. Will that weaken the line appreciably?
08-19-2013 09:17 AM
TJDave
Quote:
Originally Posted by cabenso View Post
Thanks again for all of the help. I ended up actually buying a Warn M8000 last night.
Congratulations! My opinion is that you made a very wise choice.

Another train wreck of a winch thread with a happy ending. From original post to the final result: A new winch for the OP's Jeep.




End of thread? Probably not.
08-19-2013 09:01 AM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaRolln View Post
Any thoughts on why WARN says in their operators manuals to replace synthetic rope every 12 months? They don't appear say that in the manuals for their wire rope winches.
As opined above, one word... lawyers.
08-19-2013 08:05 AM
geiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaRolln View Post
Any thoughts on why WARN says in their operators manuals to replace synthetic rope every 12 months? They don't appear say that in the manuals for their wire rope winches.
Andy (the Warn rep on the forum) could probably tell you, but if I had to guess I'd say it's the same reason they have to have warnings to tell people not to eat poison, touch hot things, etc. Lawyers...
08-19-2013 08:04 AM
BamaRolln Any thoughts on why WARN says in their operators manuals to replace synthetic rope every 12 months? They don't appear say that in the manuals for their wire rope winches.
08-19-2013 07:45 AM
geiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes View Post
IF I were to buy a winch today, it would likely be a Milemarker or Engo with cable line and a swivel thimble or eye braided on the end. There is not a chance I would believe a "test" in a magazine that features every month, full page adverts for the company of the models tested.

I don't have a winch now and when I wheel in the tough sections most of my companions have winches. Self recovery vs recovering someone else when I had my PTO winch jeep was about ten to one. Something to think about.
Until you've had some extensive personal experience with a synthetic line you won't truly know how it performs. From your post, it's clear you're worrying about the myths associated with synthetic line and not any actual experience.

In my opinion, it's worth going synthetic for the safety factor alone. But that's just me.

As for relying on everyone else's winch, I don't mind using my winch for others at all, but I can say the day definitely goes much more smoothly if everyone has a winch. Particularly if we're wheeling somewhere that a winch is necessary. Most of those kinds of trails would make it extremely difficult for another Jeep to re-position in order to winch another vehicle.
08-18-2013 11:52 AM
Jerry Bransford Synthetic lines aren't as delicate as you think they are, and the reason you don't see them all that often on tow trucks or industrial equipment is simply the higher cost of synthetic rope.

The maritime industry switched to synthetic lines many years ago, & I noticed the USCG is also running synthetic lines. I suspect the Navy is too but I haven't been on Navy ships like I have USCG ships.

And so long as you stick with a 3/8" synthetic line which typically has an 18-20k lb. capacity, you won't have to watch it. I would not go with a 5/16" simply because it doesn't have the margin the 3/8" does but in the 10+ years I've been using synthetics on the rocks, not once have I ever had to drag it over the rocks or anything sharp. So that you have to "watch them every second" simply isn't true.

Not to mention that for safety reasons, many sanctioned offroad events where a lot of winching is required (like King of the Hammers), they require competitors use synthetic lines. If synthetic wasn't widely accepted as being safer, that wouldn't be the case.

Not to mention in a straight pull, even a 5/16" synthetic rope is substantially stronger than a 5/16" wire rope that has a lower winching load limit than many of our Jeep size winches can exert.

Surprising to many is this:

-Breaking strength of the 5/16" galvanized 7x7 wire rope that comes on a Jeep size winch is 9,200 lbs., less than the winching capacity of many of our winches.

-Breaking strength of the 5/16" synthetic rope that comes on winches made for Jeeps is typically 12,300 lbs. or more. But it is synthetic rope so it is more vulnerable to abrasion damage so not many will recommend this size for offroad winching.

-Breaking strength of the 3/8" synthetic rope that comes on winches made for Jeeps is typically 17,600 lbs. or more. Even with some abrasion, this winch line still have enough of a safety margin that even if it has to be dragged over the rocks, it is not likely to abrade enough to be unsafe. Some 3/8" synthetic ropes have a breaking strength of over 20k lbs.

That said, the need to drag a winch line over a sharp edge is more than rare. I know I have never had the need to do so in since I first started using a winch offroad nearly 15 years ago.

Why did I switch to synthetic? Because within the first five years of winch ownership, my wire rope kinked up enough with hard use that it developed broken strands & needed to be replaced twice. Since switching to synthetic ten years ago, I've yet to need to replace a rope.

Very few would argue that wire rope is safer than synthetic rope, that is for sure. More expensive? Yep... but certainly safer from any reasonable point of view.
08-18-2013 11:00 AM
Dusty Rhodes My first jeep winch was a PTO winch. There has never been an electric winch that I have seen that could keep up with it. It was a beast. As long as the engine would run and had gas, it would pull, and pull and pull. But that is not an option on my TJ.
As other insightful forum members have pointed out, to a degree one's winch choice is a chevy/ford thing. I am not a Warn fan though they make good products. I don't like the way the sold off the overdrive division, nor how they "re-engineered" the locking hubs. If the tiny allen head bolts were not bad enough, they refused to stamp out bend tab washers for the old hubs that were made by the millions.

A jeep buddy's son was in the US Army in the pointless Iraq war and he said on their hummers they had all the major brands of winches (that were made at the time) The winches were severely used and abused. Milemarker's were superior in longevity. Above all others. Many winches failed within weeks. Especially the big overpriced names.

Being old school (I freely admit it) I am not impressed with synthetic lines. You have to watch them every second they are in use as when they rub on something abrasive, they are toast. More importantly, they would be seriously unsafe. When I see professional recovery workers/companies using synthetic line, I will be a convert. Until then I think its simply marketing.

IF I were to buy a winch today, it would likely be a Milemarker or Engo with cable line and a swivel thimble or eye braided on the end. There is not a chance I would believe a "test" in a magazine that features every month, full page adverts for the company of the models tested.

I don't have a winch now and when I wheel in the tough sections most of my companions have winches. Self recovery vs recovering someone else when I had my PTO winch jeep was about ten to one. Something to think about.
08-18-2013 08:43 AM
BamaRolln
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redsand View Post
There IS a reason warn costs more

_________________________________________
"When your stupid, your whole body suffers"
There's probably several reasons, not the least of which is that American labor is much more costly than Chinese labor.
08-18-2013 08:09 AM
cabenso Thanks again for all of the help. I ended up actually buying a Warn M8000 last night.
08-15-2013 08:33 PM
1jeeplvr
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jeeplvr View Post
Well Ive got a Warn.Ive got a thread showing why my freespool lever wouldent budge.The gaskets allowed water into the gear assy.Ive been trying for over a week,soon going on 2 weeks to get Warn to send me 2 new gaskets,about a buck each.Not sure if Id buy another Warn at this point.I think Ill buy an Engo.
Got ahold of Andy & got my gaskets today.Kudos to Andy.
08-15-2013 07:14 PM
cabenso Wow... I moved and didn't have internet for a while. Ha and this thread grew 2.5 pages since. Thanks for all of the responses! I keep telling myself I'm going to sleep on the decision and wake up thinking something else. I should just make an impulse buy and live with it ha. Ive spent a lot at Quadratec and trust them. But based on this thread I guess I'll rule them out. Now I have ENGO on the plate too.
08-14-2013 08:57 AM
NJO
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jeeplvr View Post
Another good choice is Ramsey.They are def made in the USA. A guy from a local Jeep club was speaking highly of them a little while back.
Ramsey makes a very good winch. Assembled in the USA but not all parts are made here. Just like pretty much all the other companies.
08-13-2013 08:34 PM
1jeeplvr Another good choice is Ramsey.They are def made in the USA. A guy from a local Jeep club was speaking highly of them a little while back.
08-13-2013 08:11 PM
1jeeplvr I found this in a shootout article.Thought it was interesting

Stall Test
After the speed and efficiency test, we returned to our shop space to wrap up our objective testing. We borrowed a 20,000-pound analog load cell from our good friends at King Crane in Scotts Valley, California. The unit displays, in pounds, how much force is being applied to the device and featured shackle attachment points on each end. We fabricated a test platform that would allow us the ability to secure a winch in a multi-mount at one end, while the load cell was affixed to the other end. The system was massive and could only be moved using a forklift. We used a 10-foot section of ˝-inch steel cable to ensure that cable stretch or breakage would not be an issue. The arrangement would allow each winch to reach its maximum pulling power or stall point, while the gauge recorded the maximum pound rating. As you might expect, many of the winches did not survive this torture test.

Results
Winch Max Pull (lb) Result
Bulldog 10,000 Broke internal parts, would not work after test
Engo 12,000 All functions still worked after test
Superwinch 15,900 Would not spool out after test
T-Max 16,000 All functions still worked after test
Warn 16,000 Broke internal parts, would not work after test
(Summit Racing, Harbor Freight, Kodiak units inoperative.)
08-13-2013 08:06 PM
Moabrubi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Warn's VR8000 is indeed imported from China, their VR1000 and VR12000 winches are manufactured in Oregon. Their other Jeep size winches are also made in Oregon, it's their ATV sized & VR8000 winches that are made in China.
My 2.5CI says USA on it. Can't find made in China anywhere.

Regardless, it's a hell of a lot faster then a Harbor Freight winch and the brakes much better.
08-13-2013 08:03 PM
1jeeplvr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Warn's VR8000 is indeed imported from China, their VR1000 and VR12000 winches are manufactured in Oregon. Their other Jeep size winches are also made in Oregon, it's their ATV sized & VR8000 winches that are made in China.
And this is prob the reason Im not so happy with my winch.
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