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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-13-2013 09:02 PM
jkmohican
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post

But this goes back to our original discussion. A stupid spotter can put you into that nasty situation you didn't expect to be in. My point is, a stock rig (cage wise) will protect you sufficiently most of the time. None of us can predict a stupid spotter, or else we wouldn't get into these situations. If a spotter is telling you to come forward and you slam a log that you couldn't see, there is no preventing that. You can only prevent the future (ie, never listening to them again.)
This is 100% true (read my post regarding the stock cage).
08-13-2013 08:32 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkmohican View Post
X2 nothing does more damage to your jeep than a bad spotter. I half-cracked my side steps this weekend due to a bozo spotter who couldn't distinguish a twig from a log.
But this goes back to our original discussion. A stupid spotter can put you into that nasty situation you didn't expect to be in. My point is, a stock rig (cage wise) will protect you sufficiently most of the time. None of us can predict a stupid spotter, or else we wouldn't get into these situations. If a spotter is telling you to come forward and you slam a log that you couldn't see, there is no preventing that. You can only prevent the future (ie, never listening to them again.)
08-13-2013 08:25 PM
jkmohican
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverkillYJ View Post

Stupid spotting. Nothing is worse. Hit my diff off a couple rocks thanks to that.
X2 nothing does more damage to your jeep than a bad spotter. I half-cracked my side steps this weekend due to a bozo spotter who couldn't distinguish a twig from a log.
08-13-2013 08:22 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverkillYJ View Post

Stupid spotting. Nothing is worse. Hit my diff off a couple rocks thanks to that.
Definitely. My point was the stock bars are strong enough for most jeepers and the benefits of a cage are greatly outweighed by the cons in most situations for most jeepers.
08-13-2013 08:01 PM
OverkillYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
This is the type of rollover 99% of jeepers will encounter (ignore the stupid driving and the stupid spotting.)

JK Rubicon Rollover - YouTube

This is a plop over

2011 Jeep Wrangler Safari Roll over! - YouTube

More than an average jeeper would roll, and still...look at the structure....still 100%
jeep roll over - YouTube

JEEP Roll Over on Dinero - 4x4 Offroad dangers - YouTube
Stupid spotting. Nothing is worse. Hit my diff off a couple rocks thanks to that.
08-13-2013 07:53 PM
NFRs2000NYC This is the type of rollover 99% of jeepers will encounter (ignore the stupid driving and the stupid spotting.)

JK Rubicon Rollover - YouTube

This is a plop over

2011 Jeep Wrangler Safari Roll over! - YouTube

More than an average jeeper would roll, and still...look at the structure....still 100%
jeep roll over - YouTube

JEEP Roll Over on Dinero - 4x4 Offroad dangers - YouTube
08-13-2013 07:17 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGreen06TJ View Post
Can I throw another wrinkle in the discussion? I'm just starting into the Jeep sickness. What is the general consensus on the bolt in cages (OR-Fab or Rockhard) versus welding up a full cage? My Jeep is my DD and the bolt in cages look a little more finished to me (fit in better with the look of the stock Jeep) but I hate to waste the money if they won't do anything for me and I'll end up with a welded cage someday anyway. Thanks for your input.
A bolt in cage can be as strong (or 95%) as a weld in, provided is was well made and well engineered.
08-13-2013 07:10 PM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEEPDON View Post
So what is inconsistent about my advice??? Where did I say that we should have a full cage in street vehicles?? All I said was that I see people wheeling and relying on their sport cage to do the job of a full cage! Bad stuff does happen when we least expect it!! And when we are wheeling, we are generally pushing the envelope. Have a fun day JEEPING!!!!!
Very few people have dedicated offroad rigs. Even fewer attempt obstacles with a high chance or constant roll over...very different than a plop over....ie, climbing over a boulder, tilting too much with a slow roll onto the roof. I am talking about guys that go to Moab that run trails that can result in end over end rolls. Very few people do that kind of wheeling. The OEM bar system is NOT a cage. It is basically a roof support structure without the roof. It is designed to absorb impacts in horizontal crashes and protect the occupants in a normal on road roll scenario. It is designed to save your life. The OEM support beams are plenty sufficient for the average offroader. Rolling off the cliff at Black Bear pass with a roll caged Jeep isn't going to do a god damn thing for you. The OEM supports will easily handle a moderate offroad rollover, and I haven't met too many guys that climb end over end obstacles in their daily driver grocery buying Jeeps. Are there some? Sure, but they are a very small minority. If you hit something like an Escalade on the road with a caged Jeep (lets say a TJ or earlier) you increased your chances of getting killed 10 fold. On a JK, maybe 3 fold.

Now, much like the A pillar steel grab handles, people don't think down the road. If you got into a car accident and slammed your head against those handles guess what? Insurance won't pay your medical bills because you added a dangerous device. A cage has it's purpose, but it's purpose (pros) also has a heap of cons. You think engineering a roll cage is more expensive than a crumple system? It's probably not even 1/1000th of the cost. If roll cages were better for road vehicles, all manufacturers would use them. Like I said, 9 times out of 10, the cause of death from an accident is G force, and a roll cage ADDS G forces.

I'll stick by what I said earlier...stick a rollcage on anything but a hardcore dedicated offroad rig, and you have 100 times more chance of being killed by it than saved by it. Seatbelts don't work with roll cages, naked heads don't work with roll cages, and your neck without a hans device doesn't work with roll cages. You guys want to stick a rollcage into a road driven rig, be my guest, but don't come on here telling people (this isn't aimed at you btw) that it's a good idea. I don't mean to come across argumentative, but this is dangerous information being spread around. It is not my intention to offend anyone, just to inject some reality.
08-13-2013 06:57 PM
JGreen06TJ Can I throw another wrinkle in the discussion? I'm just starting into the Jeep sickness. What is the general consensus on the bolt in cages (OR-Fab or Rockhard) versus welding up a full cage? My Jeep is my DD and the bolt in cages look a little more finished to me (fit in better with the look of the stock Jeep) but I hate to waste the money if they won't do anything for me and I'll end up with a welded cage someday anyway. Thanks for your input.
08-13-2013 06:53 PM
ltsrapcon Ive been involved in two Jeep rollovers(as a passanger), neither had additional support. Everyone walked away from both of them. That being said as soon as I can afford it I will be adding to the sport cages in both of my Jeeps.
08-13-2013 06:36 PM
1jeeplvr Group hug
08-13-2013 04:27 PM
JEEPDON
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
vVery inconsistent advice my friend. As someone who used to race cars a lot, I know a thing or two about roll cages.

First of all, a rollcage is designed to be used with supplemental safety systems, including a helmet, a harness, a race seat, and a hans device. Second, you NEVER EVER EVER EVER put a roll cage into a street driven vehicle. A roll cage (a real one) eliminates crumple zones, turning your vehicle into a rigid box. Car accidents are usually fatal because the body was introduced to G forces it could not survive. Crumple zones are made to reduce the G load, cages add to it. Devices such as the hans device add to the amount of g's a person can withstand. A regular minor accident can turn fatal simply by a head smashing itself on a roll cage.

Cliff notes, never ever put a real roll cage into a street driven vehicle. A roll cage in a street vehicle has a much higher chance of killing you than saving you.
So what is inconsistent about my advice??? Where did I say that we should have a full cage in street vehicles?? All I said was that I see people wheeling and relying on their sport cage to do the job of a full cage! Bad stuff does happen when we least expect it!! And when we are wheeling, we are generally pushing the envelope. Have a fun day JEEPING!!!!!
08-13-2013 02:27 PM
Off Pavement
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkmohican View Post
I'm just going to put this out there. A full cage is great for people who know they will go off road, even light off roading, don't know why people are AGAINST it, but for people with the stock cages (specific to JKs), they do their job well. I feel pretty damn confident in my stock cage for most of the wheeling I do. No I don't do anything close to what the OP does, but I do get into situations where flipping becomes a very real threat. Not often, but it happens. The reason I feel confident with the stock cage is because of a lot of the stories I heard of rollovers in JKs. A family driving up a Colorado mountain during a snowstorm flipped 18 (somewhere around there) times down the mountain in their stock cage, and managed to all survive, even their infant child. That's just one story, but I've heard a lot of them. And seen the pictures. Bottom line, a cage is a good idea and can only help you off road, but for the people who don't want to add a cage, the stock one (tested and proven on the JK) will save your life in a roll over situation.
A little tidbit to go with this...

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 216 specifies since 2009 that a roof crush standard of 3 times the vehicle weight be attained unless the GVWR is over 10000 lbs. In those larger pickups and SUVs, the standard is only 1 1/2 times the vehicle weight. Our Jeeps require a higher test rating than a big pickup for roof crash strength.
08-13-2013 01:28 PM
4Jeepn
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65southbound View Post
Mall wheelers.. Of course. We have opinion that differ. Must mean were all incompetent. Sheesh..

I have rolled end over in a tj and was very lucky that the terrain soaked up most of the impact and the roll bar was spared. I also have made multiple fast passes in drag cars with and without cages depending their street status.

Accidents DO happen. We all know that I hope. You should be prepared but come on you can't base your life around accidents. Does your wife's car have a cage and harnesses? I'm most certain that her chances of being killed on the highway everyday are higher than most jeepers'. Does she have run flats? Blowouts at speed can kill you. Do you carry your sidearm absolutely everywhere? Wicked people are everywhere.. See where this is going?

If you wheel extreme. If you wheel in areas of great elevation change or on rocks hill climbs etcetera, fit a cage into your budget.

If your are a weekend warrior and wheel hard but you know your limits, respect them, and are an adequate driver then I don't expect you to spend $2k on your $5k jeep to have a cage unless you have the money or want to step your level of comfort up for harder wheeling.

Everyone has opinions and they will all differ. Saying everyone needs a cage because accidents happen... Well, I hope you are prepared for every other potential accident scenario that life can bring. And rich. Because it won't be cheap.

That being said, I will add to mine as money allows because I want the comfort of knowing I have it as I learn to wheel harder and harder.
Glad to see you agree with me.
08-13-2013 12:58 PM
OmniscientHiers I'm highly interested to know the difference between the JKs and the TJs factory cage. I saw the Colorado story not long ago also, and it was quite intriguing.
08-13-2013 11:40 AM
65southbound Some are AGAINST it because it is not cheap or easy unless you have resources and once again it can hurt or kill you if you are not using it properly. Not to mention, once again, if you are so anal about this does your wife's car have a cage? The highway will always be a more dangerous place than your favorite trails..

I'm not sure about the Jk's but if they really are that strong factory that is awesome.
08-12-2013 11:32 PM
jkmohican I'm just going to put this out there. A full cage is great for people who know they will go off road, even light off roading, don't know why people are AGAINST it, but for people with the stock cages (specific to JKs), they do their job well. I feel pretty damn confident in my stock cage for most of the wheeling I do. No I don't do anything close to what the OP does, but I do get into situations where flipping becomes a very real threat. Not often, but it happens. The reason I feel confident with the stock cage is because of a lot of the stories I heard of rollovers in JKs. A family driving up a Colorado mountain during a snowstorm flipped 18 (somewhere around there) times down the mountain in their stock cage, and managed to all survive, even their infant child. That's just one story, but I've heard a lot of them. And seen the pictures. Bottom line, a cage is a good idea and can only help you off road, but for the people who don't want to add a cage, the stock one (tested and proven on the JK) will save your life in a roll over situation.
08-12-2013 11:15 PM
65southbound OKYJ, rock on man. I'm not at all against cages. I've learned to love them trapping 115mph in 660 feet. But we were talking about most people. The better part of this thread was saying everybody needed One.

I agree and truly believe you should know when you need a cage. You don't install a custom cage due to the chance of some freak accident. You install it when you are a mad man behind the wheel that has a very elevated chance of a rollover. Or when your just rich and money can blow lol.
08-12-2013 11:11 PM
65southbound I will agree with needing supplemental safety equipment. I might have given too much credit to the roll bar padding.

Which brings up the point that everybody says a cage will save their neck. But if it crushes your head??
08-12-2013 11:10 PM
OverkillYJ I can fabricate whatever I need for my Jeep. It wasn't built enough to worry about a cage until recently. Now that I can make it up giant hills and over rocks that 90% of Jeeps cant I need a cage to cover my ass. Also, because of mods I am more top heavy and need to cover my ass with the problems that creates at higher speeds. The metal for a cage will cost me about $300, at most. Since I am fabricating from scratch I CAN add on to the factory cage. No most people dont need a cage, but I am not most people. I am that 10% that beat the piss out of their Jeep, make it stronger, then see what it takes to break it again. I enjoy every minute of it too. And when someone gives me a hard time, i just see if they can keep up.
08-12-2013 11:06 PM
OmniscientHiers
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
First of all, a rollcage is designed to be used with supplemental safety systems, including a helmet, a harness, a race seat, and a hans device.
This makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65southbound View Post
There is one in your jeep factory right by your head. They make rollbar padding for a reason. Which also comes factory.
This does to, although I do not see how the factory padding will prevent much damage to the body? Sounds like a never ending debate.

Edit: to add something to the discussion, my girlfriend's cousin (I think cousin?) slammed into a concrete barrier on the interstate. It was said the factory "sport" cage saved her life.
08-12-2013 10:43 PM
65southbound
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverkillYJ View Post
If I get into an accident on the highway chances are I will roll. If I roll going over 35 I probably wont make it with a stock cage if I am wearing my seatbelt keeping me in the death heap.

Wrecking from a blowout with 15" rims and 33" or 35" tires at any decent speed in a lifted Jeep is a completely different beast then a getting into a CAR accident. A decent cage will double at least my chances of actually walking away. That is priceless, but to weld it up is under $500. Of course decent seats and belts cost more, but the cage is the most important part. If that is a tough decision for anyone then I will ignore any other advice they have to offer since they obviously dont value safety enough for me.
So you obviously have a custom cage, correct?

Oh and $500 cage. Either you know somebody, do it yourself, or you're the common man who will pay significantly more for a custom cage. Or either you have a junk cage that won't support 5k lbs plus G load in the event of a roll.

Every off roader NEEDS a cage. Is that the consensus here? I'm really just curious as to why a few people are so quick to go on defense over this issue. Even more curious as to know if they are even running cages themselves..
08-12-2013 09:48 PM
OverkillYJ If I get into an accident on the highway chances are I will roll. If I roll going over 35 I probably wont make it with a stock cage if I am wearing my seatbelt keeping me in the death heap.

Wrecking from a blowout with 15" rims and 33" or 35" tires at any decent speed in a lifted Jeep is a completely different beast then a getting into a CAR accident. A decent cage will double at least my chances of actually walking away. That is priceless, but to weld it up is under $500. Of course decent seats and belts cost more, but the cage is the most important part. If that is a tough decision for anyone then I will ignore any other advice they have to offer since they obviously dont value safety enough for me.
08-12-2013 08:53 PM
65southbound Mall wheelers.. Of course. We have opinion that differ. Must mean were all incompetent. Sheesh..

I have rolled end over in a tj and was very lucky that the terrain soaked up most of the impact and the roll bar was spared. I also have made multiple fast passes in drag cars with and without cages depending their street status.

Accidents DO happen. We all know that I hope. You should be prepared but come on you can't base your life around accidents. Does your wife's car have a cage and harnesses? I'm most certain that her chances of being killed on the highway everyday are higher than most jeepers'. Does she have run flats? Blowouts at speed can kill you. Do you carry your sidearm absolutely everywhere? Wicked people are everywhere.. See where this is going?

If you wheel extreme. If you wheel in areas of great elevation change or on rocks hill climbs etcetera, fit a cage into your budget.

If your are a weekend warrior and wheel hard but you know your limits, respect them, and are an adequate driver then I don't expect you to spend $2k on your $5k jeep to have a cage unless you have the money or want to step your level of comfort up for harder wheeling.

Everyone has opinions and they will all differ. Saying everyone needs a cage because accidents happen... Well, I hope you are prepared for every other potential accident scenario that life can bring. And rich. Because it won't be cheap.

That being said, I will add to mine as money allows because I want the comfort of knowing I have it as I learn to wheel harder and harder.
08-12-2013 10:07 AM
4Jeepn I see we have lots of mall wheelers with us today.

1st. no one expects to roll, flip or get hurt off road.. it can come out of no place. Anyone who isn't concerned about what might happen in a roll or states just drive better,clearly has not wheeled enough to know what they are talking about. A good time can go to a bad time in a matter of seconds.. Hell we have all seen the Youtube vids.

1. yes you can add some very well thought out mods to the factory cage. The problem with most wrangler cages i have seen over the years is that the front windshield folds back and into the driver/passenger area. The stock streamer bars do an okay job, but will fold as they take the load. Thus by adding a upper bar, dash bar and then mounting that to the floor with a new A pillar and running additional streamers from the B(center factory bar)pillar you can get a decent amount of improved protection. Now if your like me and have passengers in the back, then you can add some additional supports there too. Don't forget to tie it into the frame.

As for not wanting to put the time into to do a cage.. its your life or the life of someone else.. is that not worth it? Also if you drive a cherokee/ grand, MJ, or liberty style jeep. those don't have any factory bars.. and compress like butter when rolled. Would a cage not be a good idea in those. Getting ready to put one in my XJ project cuz I like my head in its current location.

Thus do some research, figure out what if anything you feel is important to added. My vote would be yes add to it, as it could save your life.
08-12-2013 09:50 AM
65southbound
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverkillYJ View Post
That all depends on what you do. Most people do not run the roll cage to the front bumper. The crumple zones are mainly in front of the windshield past where 90% of Jeep cages stop. As for a rear crumple zone, they are almost non existent in a lifted Jeep since someone would be hitting the frame in a rear impact. As for seats and harnesses, they are great, but you don't strap yourself in under a cage you don't know for a fact will hold up in a roll over unless you are trying to break your neck at minimum. Rule of thumb for Jeep cages is that they should be built only for rolls, not collisions like a race car has to endure.

There is more then one way to build a roll cage, and most Jeep cages are fine to drive on the road.
I agree, as someone who still does race cars. And all the fuss about never ever ever put a roll cage in a street duty machine...

There is one in your jeep factory right by your head. They make rollbar padding for a reason. Which also comes factory.

This thread is pretty pointless though. Even being someone who has owned caged vehicles before and having more resources than the average guy I am still not going to put in a $2k or 50-60 man hour roll cage in my street jeep and I can tell you right now that 98% of your average jeepers definitely won't either.

No your limits. Drive below them.

You are more likely to be killed at an intersection than off road if you know your limits and are a decent driver. Simple as that.
08-12-2013 09:39 AM
OverkillYJ That all depends on what you do. Most people do not run the roll cage to the front bumper. The crumple zones are mainly in front of the windshield past where 90% of Jeep cages stop. As for a rear crumple zone, they are almost non existent in a lifted Jeep since someone would be hitting the frame in a rear impact. As for seats and harnesses, they are great, but you don't strap yourself in under a cage you don't know for a fact will hold up in a roll over unless you are trying to break your neck at minimum. Rule of thumb for Jeep cages is that they should be built only for rolls, not collisions like a race car has to endure.

There is more then one way to build a roll cage, and most Jeep cages are fine to drive on the road.
08-12-2013 01:13 AM
NFRs2000NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEEPDON View Post
As the question asks!
I see a lot of people relying on their "sport" cage to do the job of a "roll" cage!!!
This guy was definitely not a novice.... probably one of the most experienced wheelers in our club!

He does have a full cage; the only damage was to the driver side front fender.
Yes, this is also an early Bronco, but that does not negate what can happen very quickly.
vVery inconsistent advice my friend. As someone who used to race cars a lot, I know a thing or two about roll cages.

First of all, a rollcage is designed to be used with supplemental safety systems, including a helmet, a harness, a race seat, and a hans device. Second, you NEVER EVER EVER EVER put a roll cage into a street driven vehicle. A roll cage (a real one) eliminates crumple zones, turning your vehicle into a rigid box. Car accidents are usually fatal because the body was introduced to G forces it could not survive. Crumple zones are made to reduce the G load, cages add to it. Devices such as the hans device add to the amount of g's a person can withstand. A regular minor accident can turn fatal simply by a head smashing itself on a roll cage.

Cliff notes, never ever put a real roll cage into a street driven vehicle. A roll cage in a street vehicle has a much higher chance of killing you than saving you.
08-11-2013 02:34 PM
1jeeplvr Ive been on the verge of having it happen. That feeling of thinking your going over is terrible.
08-04-2013 07:24 AM
JEEPDON
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyTeddy View Post
don't roll over..

but if you are wheeling at a level that a full cage would save your butt then put it in
If you are someplace where you need 4WD, it can happen at any time, And it can happen to you, me or anyone.
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