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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-18-2013 02:30 PM
Vt rider No war. Let them kill each other and destroy their own country. And whichever side wins, I say "NO" to helping them rebuild.
09-08-2013 09:58 AM
scipio337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorcharge View Post
I didn't say I agreed with his writings, I just said they're a huge influence on the fundamentalist ideals these people hold.
...
I didn't think you did, just wanted to point out that it isn't always intervention that angered Qutb and/or fundamentalist. It could be something as simple as banning hijabs in driver's license photos, or letting a book or movie be published that "insults the prophet".

Agree with you on Putin/Obama.
09-07-2013 06:45 PM
Motorcharge
Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
I've read Qutb's "Milestones". Qutb was pissy about people in the US dancing in public, among other things, and because our way of government led Muslims and the world away from Sharia law (jahiliyyah, a lot like how the mere existence of capitalist society led the Marxists to "false consciousness).

Coincidentally, Iran isn't "Arab" and our "overthrow" of their government was convincing the Shah to dismiss his P.M. (who had just nationalized about $1B in British assets), which happens pretty often in Constitutional Monarchies.

I don't think the Arab or Muslim world needs a reason to hate the US. We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. Bomb Assad, p!ss off the Shia. Don't bomb Assad, p!ss off the Sunni Wahabists.
I didn't say I agreed with his writings, I just said they're a huge influence on the fundamentalist ideals these people hold.

With Syria it's not the Muslims I'm worried about pissing off, it's Russia and China. China is a paper tiger and they won't actually do anything to piss us off because their manufacturing is the only real thing holding their economy together and if we pull out China falls hard. Russia though, Putin I don't think will really hesitate to kick off WWIII and frankly I think that's exactly what Obama wants. He's spent the last 6 years getting rid of military leaders that oppose him, setting up all sorts of laws giving him emergency control of virtually every private sector, arming and militarizing half the Federal government along with civilian police forces and having the DoJ arm and train them for insurrection, ect. I think this is exactly the situation he wants to use it as an excuse to keep from stepping down in 2 years. I think he's far more of a sociopath drunk on power than people realize.
09-07-2013 11:54 AM
CodyLee1337 Difficult question.
09-07-2013 11:15 AM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post

...

I don't think the Arab or Muslim world needs a reason to hate the US. We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. Bomb Assad, p!ss off the Shia. Don't bomb Assad, p!ss off the Sunni Wahabists.
^that.

Reason #1 you stay out of civil wars... Someone will hate you.
09-07-2013 10:58 AM
scipio337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorcharge View Post
Our bad relations with the Arab world go back to the 50s under Eisenhower and his administrations involvement with the overthrow of their Democratically elected government and instilation of the Sha and religious fundamentalists.

Prior to that we were very much respected by the Arab world because we'd left them alone unlike the French and British. We had a lot of help and support from Muslims in Africa in WWII.

Of course you can also put a lot of blame on Reagan for basicaly creating Al Qaeda to fight the Russians.

If you want a really good understanding of where Islamic fundamentalism comes from read some of Sayyid Qutb's writings. He basically started it all long before Al Qaeda or the Taliban came along. Combine that with a lot of powerful rhetoric and bad feelings left over from British and French colonialism and modern American imperialism and its not hard to understand why a handful of whackjobs can sway disenfranchised young men into commiting some pretty horrible acts. Even the CIA has been telling us for years that blowback is by far the biggest reason young people in the Mid East turn to terrorism.
I've read Qutb's "Milestones". Qutb was pissy about people in the US dancing in public, among other things, and because our way of government led Muslims and the world away from Sharia law (jahiliyyah, a lot like how the mere existence of capitalist society led the Marxists to "false consciousness).

Coincidentally, Iran isn't "Arab" and our "overthrow" of their government was convincing the Shah to dismiss his P.M. (who had just nationalized about $1B in British assets), which happens pretty often in Constitutional Monarchies.

I don't think the Arab or Muslim world needs a reason to hate the US. We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. Bomb Assad, p!ss off the Shia. Don't bomb Assad, p!ss off the Sunni Wahabists.
09-07-2013 09:47 AM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorcharge View Post

Our bad relations with the Arab world go back to the 50s under Eisenhower and his administrations involvement with the overthrow of their Democratically elected government and instilation of the Sha and religious fundamentalists.

Prior to that we were very much respected by the Arab world because we'd left them alone unlike the French and British. We had a lot of help and support from Muslims in Africa in WWII.

Of course you can also put a lot of blame on Reagan for basicaly creating Al Qaeda to fight the Russians.

If you want a really good understanding of where Islamic fundamentalism comes from read some of Sayyid Qutb's writings. He basically started it all long before Al Qaeda or the Taliban came along. Combine that with a lot of powerful rhetoric and bad feelings left over from British and French colonialism and modern American imperialism and its not hard to understand why a handful of whackjobs can sway disenfranchised young men into commiting some pretty horrible acts. Even the CIA has been telling us for years that blowback is by far the biggest reason young people in the Mid East turn to terrorism.
Pretty much. Of course, the creation of an Isreali State is what got a lot of Arabs upset (particularly when we gave them a corner and they decided it wasn't big enough, so they invaded and occupied foreign & sovereign land, and we didn't even ask them to stop or acknowledge Palestines equal right to exist). It would be EXACTLY like China coming over and giving D.C., Maryland, New York, Jersey and the rest of New England to the Native Americans. Then not 20 years later, them (N.A.) invading and taking Virginia the Carolinas, and the majority of the South East - and then telling us we aren't really a country (lacking the ability to have protective treaties). Well, that is what we did to them... Hello, black kettle. My name is pot.

As you mentioned, then we had to meddle in Irans government, installing a fierce dictator that restricted free speech and basic civil rights, leaving places of worship as the only place to truely talk with your neigbbors (the rise of religious fanaticism). And then, of course, we funded, trained, and instagated the rise of the Mujahadeen, which has pretty well morphed into Al Qeada, but this was mainly due to our Army being the one that protected Saudi Arabia - home of Mecca - under Bush I instead of the Arab "Freedom Fighters" led by none other than one Osama Bin Laden. They were made to prevent occupation through guerilla tactics, like we have seen in Afghan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria. Yet Ambassador Stevens was killed in a bigger picture gun sale to those same Syrian rebels. We are STILL signing deals with one side and providing arms to the other.

If my homeland had been occupied, manipulated, colonized, and usurped for the past 200 years by one particular ethnicity, I'm pretty sure I would hate them, too. And I am pretty sure I would do anything I could to help my countrymen retain their inalienable freedoms. Second to England, Umerika has restricted the freedom of more individuals globally than any other country, ever.

Oh, and BTW, we also know Reagan contacted the Iranians to secure the release of Americans only after he had won the presidential election... how would you feel if the President of the United States was trying to get a family member of yours out of a hostage situation only to have another American official go and bribe those holding them to keep them longer to allow personal political gain? THAT is Ronald Reagan, and we aren't close to done paying for his greed and idiocracy yet, which most of this whole mess is.



We really need to learn to live and let live.
There is no way to Peace. Peace is the way. A.J. Muste
09-07-2013 08:24 AM
Motorcharge
Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post

I would say October 23, 1983 would be a good date. We won the undying affection of the entire Arab World for our efforts.

No...wait!

Meanwhile, Aleppo is in better shape than Detroit.
Our bad relations with the Arab world go back to the 50s under Eisenhower and his administrations involvement with the overthrow of their Democratically elected government and instilation of the Sha and religious fundamentalists.

Prior to that we were very much respected by the Arab world because we'd left them alone unlike the French and British. We had a lot of help and support from Muslims in Africa in WWII.

Of course you can also put a lot of blame on Reagan for basicaly creating Al Qaeda to fight the Russians.

If you want a really good understanding of where Islamic fundamentalism comes from read some of Sayyid Qutb's writings. He basically started it all long before Al Qaeda or the Taliban came along. Combine that with a lot of powerful rhetoric and bad feelings left over from British and French colonialism and modern American imperialism and its not hard to understand why a handful of whackjobs can sway disenfranchised young men into commiting some pretty horrible acts. Even the CIA has been telling us for years that blowback is by far the biggest reason young people in the Mid East turn to terrorism.
09-06-2013 10:06 PM
BlueRidgeYJ Good thing Lebanon is free now, huh?

Attachment 321129
(Oct 24 front page)
09-06-2013 08:38 AM
scipio337
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ View Post
History can be fun! If only we could find a way to learn from it.... Lol

I would say October 23, 1983 would be a good date. We won the undying affection of the entire Arab World for our efforts.

No...wait!

Meanwhile, Aleppo is in better shape than Detroit.
09-06-2013 07:57 AM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
Classic blunders:

Starting a land war in Asia

Getting involved in a Middle East "civil war".
History can be fun! If only we could find a way to learn from it.... Lol
09-06-2013 07:42 AM
scipio337 Classic blunders:

Starting a land war in Asia

Getting involved in a Middle East "civil war".
09-05-2013 10:12 PM
Angry Monkey Let's just enjoy life while we're all still here... So come on turbo diesel wrangler!!! Bring the polar edition to Cali !!!
09-05-2013 10:01 PM
TJZ Seriously, I hate to think about another war and I hate that we police the world, but I also hate the fact that everyone else won't chime in until they see what the USA will do.
We have to stand up for what's right but at a huge cost. One day we will pay big for it. All I can say is, I am deeply thankful for those in our Military and although I don't always agree with our tactics, God Bless and thank you for being there to keep our way of life an option ! Thank you all for your service.
09-05-2013 09:48 PM
Finazzo007 I leave for Army basic training in less than 2 weeks. I don't think we belong in Syria, but since I'm still a civilian I'm only allowed to know what the media makes up.
09-05-2013 09:38 PM
Carlsbad0331 Clandestine wars offer me job security... Im on the fence...
09-05-2013 07:57 PM
Motorcharge
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ View Post
Endless meddling in foreign affairs, clandestine wars, "deficits don't matter" attitude, free medical care for all (except taxpayers), firearm restrictions, declaring war on the American public, same stagnant wage and economy as 30 years ago, amnesty for illegal aliens... Are you SURE Reagan is gone??? Sounds like his list of credentials to me! Or is it Bamers? Boy, they sure are a lot alike - If only they were color coded to tell em apart...

I was going to rant in here but damn did you cover it.
09-05-2013 07:17 PM
1jeeplvr
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjz View Post
who cares ? I have a jeep !

Wolverines !
amen!!
09-05-2013 11:42 AM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by HillbillyJeeper View Post
When I was growing up we had Ronald Reagan, Bob Hope, and Johnny Cash. Now we have Obama and there is no Hope and No Cash.... LOL
Endless meddling in foreign affairs, clandestine wars, "deficits don't matter" attitude, free medical care for all (except taxpayers), firearm restrictions, declaring war on the American public, same stagnant wage and economy as 30 years ago, amnesty for illegal aliens... Are you SURE Reagan is gone??? Sounds like his list of credentials to me! Or is it Bamers? Boy, they sure are a lot alike - If only they were color coded to tell em apart...

09-05-2013 11:01 AM
HillbillyJeeper When I was growing up we had Ronald Reagan, Bob Hope, and Johnny Cash. Now we have Obama and there is no Hope and No Cash.... LOL
09-05-2013 12:59 AM
TJZ Who cares ? I have a JEEP !

WOLVERINES !
09-04-2013 10:59 PM
BT All politicians are like diapers. Full of $#!t and need changed often.
09-04-2013 10:13 PM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC10Chief View Post
Nevermind.
Wise choice.... but you're right on the money, brother.
09-04-2013 10:09 PM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jeeplvr View Post

Its about change ya know. B.S.
Oh, I certainly don't mean to start batin' in here, just point out they are all the same. Just appearing different enough to make us argue about it.



Attachment 313769
09-04-2013 10:07 PM
KC10Chief Nevermind.
09-04-2013 09:24 PM
1jeeplvr
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ View Post
Whoah??? Bush spread liberty while keeping me safe and free, Obama the muslim is only spreading... uh.... now wait a minute.... well.... uh.... it's just different daggum it. He's not whi.... uh.... American!

Its about change ya know. B.S.
09-04-2013 05:27 PM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireaxe View Post
Yes against BIGPharma for Drugging everybody mindless.

But no, we have no biz in Syria. We are not the Worlds Security guards and we need to stop acting like it.
And don't make this an Obama thing....Bush took us to pointless war as well.
Whoah??? Bush spread liberty while keeping me safe and free, Obama the muslim is only spreading... uh.... now wait a minute.... well.... uh.... it's just different daggum it. He's not whi.... uh.... American!

09-04-2013 04:46 PM
Fireaxe Yes against BIGPharma for Drugging everybody mindless.


But no, we have no biz in Syria. We are not the Worlds Security guards and we need to stop acting like it.
And don't make this an Obama thing....Bush took us to pointless war as well.
09-04-2013 03:36 PM
xfallenwings
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbillyjeeper View Post
no! Screw them! Doesn't matter which side we take we will be fighting them next year. The region is lost... Let them die at their own hands not ours!
+1
09-01-2013 08:22 AM
paynewp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris M View Post
No. As of now, this has nothing to do with our own national security. Stay out of Syria.
I agree, let them take out each other. No need for the US to be involved.
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