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Topic Review (Newest First)
Yesterday 09:49 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhit View Post
Just curious but what do you think about a leveling kit? It's my understanding that it lifts the front by 2 inches and the rear by 1 inch enabling the use of larger tires. Probably not a good option if you are off roading but if your on level dirt and street use than it seems like a cheaper option than a lift kit. One thing i don't understand is why the front is 2 inches and the rear is 1 inch if its a leveling kit
Because from the factory, the jeep is raked forward. The 2" brings the front up +1" to level it out.
W/ trimmed or flat flares you can run up to a 35" tire with a leveling kit.
Yesterday 09:44 PM
dwhit Just curious but what do you think about a leveling kit? It's my understanding that it lifts the front by 2 inches and the rear by 1 inch enabling the use of larger tires. Probably not a good option if you are off roading but if your on level dirt and street use than it seems like a cheaper option than a lift kit. One thing i don't understand is why the front is 2 inches and the rear is 1 inch if its a leveling kit
10-18-2014 09:57 PM
MrSteve
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
2" total height is not nearly enough to worry about geometry. How do the swaybars sit in relation to the ground ? Do You know JKS makes a adjustable stockish in length quick discos ?
Just wanted to be sure i wasn't leaving anything out.

No I didn't know about the JKS links. I will look into that.


Thanks for the tip.
10-18-2014 03:27 AM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSteve View Post
I finally got the courage to upgrade the Jeep with a lift. I'm going with the Rancho 2" sport with the RS5000 Shocks. I didn't want to get the 9000 with as much snow and salt that we get around here. I was worried they would seize up over time. I am replacing the ball joints with the Synergy set on both sides upper and lower. I also will replace the u joints on the axles because at 67K one is already squeaking with Spicer brands. I want quick disconnect sway bar links for the front but don't know if can find them for this height lift. Will the 3-4" links work? If not are the stock links ok to run? And is it necessary to upgrade the front or rear track bars with brackets to retain suspension geometry? What else should I "touch" while I am upgrading?
2" total height is not nearly enough to worry about geometry. How do the swaybars sit in relation to the ground ? Do You know JKS makes a adjustable stockish in length quick discos ?
10-17-2014 10:59 PM
MrSteve I finally got the courage to upgrade the Jeep with a lift. I'm going with the Rancho 2" sport with the RS5000 Shocks. I didn't want to get the 9000 with as much snow and salt that we get around here. I was worried they would seize up over time. I am replacing the ball joints with the Synergy set on both sides upper and lower. I also will replace the u joints on the axles because at 67K one is already squeaking with Spicer brands.

I want quick disconnect sway bar links for the front but don't know if can find them for this height lift. Will the 3-4" links work? If not are the stock links ok to run?

And is it necessary to upgrade the front or rear track bars with brackets to retain suspension geometry?

What else should I "touch" while I am upgrading?
10-17-2014 09:27 PM
gbryan84
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
Def consider upper CA's. Synergy/Currie can be run alone to adjust pinion angle.
If not understood. On a 2 door lifted 3.5-4" plus. The shorter rear driveshaft is operating at a steep angle. Using upper arms will allow you to rotate the differential up -more inline with the shaft. This is the only problem with the AEV 3.5 kit.
Adding rear lowers along with uppers will allow you to push the axle back so that a 37 + clears the seams. It's important to have clearance there or you can damage the tire off road.
Thanks, I appreciate the explanation and will ask the shop about this issue when I see them on Sunday.
10-17-2014 09:11 PM
kjeeper10 You can see here how close my 35" here is to the seam.
10-17-2014 09:09 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbryan84 View Post
2 door. Thanks, I realize taller is not always better, but I do like the look of other 3.5 inch" on 37's v. 2.5" so I'd likely go 3.5 even if I went with another system.
Def consider upper CA's. Synergy/Currie can be run alone to adjust pinion angle.
If not understood. On a 2 door lifted 3.5-4" plus. The shorter rear driveshaft is operating at a steep angle. Using upper arms will allow you to rotate the differential up -more inline with the shaft. This is the only problem with the AEV 3.5 kit.
Adding rear lowers along with uppers will allow you to push the axle back so that a 37 + clears the seams. It's important to have clearance there or you can damage the tire off road.
10-17-2014 08:55 PM
gbryan84
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
2 door or 4 door ?
A 37" will fit under 2.5 w/ flat flares. Taller is not always better. Especially if the clearance is not needed. With that being said.. The AEV 3.5 is a decent setup. If you own a 2 door, I would highly advise a set of rear upper control arms.
Gussets are a good idea if you are going w/ 37's. Safe insurance
2 door. Thanks, I realize taller is not always better, but I do like the look of other 3.5 inch" on 37's v. 2.5" so I'd likely go 3.5 even if I went with another system. I'll also be adding some weight in bumpers/tire carrier/winch so I don't expect to get the full 3.5" out of it.
10-17-2014 08:33 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbryan84 View Post
I'm about to pull the trigger on an AEV 3.5" SC lift with the Bilstein shocks and 315/70R17's for my JK, but wanted to run it by everyone here to see what their opinion is for my purposes. The JK will be brand new (pick up next weekend) and will be a 'toy' as I only drive on Saturday/Sunday and also have my wife's car. I plan to do some wheeling around NJ/PA, but will also be spending time on the highway getting there. Other than that, it will be used around once in a while but I doubt I'd put more than 3-4k miles a year on it. I'd like to keep the integrity of 'stock' highway driving, but also want it to be capable of handling the trails/rocks/mud. With the lift, I'd like to be able to put 37's on it in a few years, but don't want to re-gear or swap axles this early in the game so I'm sticking with the 315/70R17's for now. The shop I'm going to do a lot of the AEV lifts and have guided me to where I'm at now. For what it's worth, the AEV at $1,725 + install is about as much as I want/can spend on a lift.
2 door or 4 door ?
A 37" will fit under 2.5 w/ flat flares. Taller is not always better. Especially if the clearance is not needed. With that being said.. The AEV 3.5 is a decent setup. If you own a 2 door, I would highly advise a set of rear upper control arms.
Gussets are a good idea if you are going w/ 37's. Safe insurance
10-17-2014 07:53 PM
gbryan84 I'm about to pull the trigger on an AEV 3.5" SC lift with the Bilstein shocks and 315/70R17's for my JK, but wanted to run it by everyone here to see what their opinion is for my purposes. The JK will be brand new (pick up next weekend) and will be a 'toy' as I only drive on Saturday/Sunday and also have my wife's car. I plan to do some wheeling around NJ/PA, but will also be spending time on the highway getting there. Other than that, it will be used around once in a while but I doubt I'd put more than 3-4k miles a year on it. I'd like to keep the integrity of 'stock' highway driving, but also want it to be capable of handling the trails/rocks/mud. With the lift, I'd like to be able to put 37's on it in a few years, but don't want to re-gear or swap axles this early in the game so I'm sticking with the 315/70R17's for now.

The shop I'm going to do a lot of the AEV lifts and have guided me to where I'm at now. For what it's worth, the AEV at $1,725 + install is about as much as I want/can spend on a lift.
10-17-2014 03:20 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by WranglerChik View Post
I can't thank you enough. Yes, I think it is twitchy. A friend of mine told me about a reputable 4x4 place that has done Jeep lifts so I'm gonna go check them out.
Start with a alignment to see where you are at.
10-17-2014 02:53 PM
WranglerChik I can't thank you enough. Yes, I think it is twitchy. A friend of mine told me about a reputable 4x4 place that has done Jeep lifts so I'm gonna go check them out.
10-17-2014 03:57 AM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by WranglerChik View Post
Hey Ken (Ken right? That's what I thought I saw) I'm going to get upper and lower front control arms...do you think getting a steering correction kit would be overdoing it? Can you recommend any? Trying to get rid of that nose dive and bump steer and improve my handling on the highway. The front is for now till I can replace the rear control arms as well. I pretty much mortgaged a home, not a Jeep. Haha
You have 2.5" coils ? I would go with front lower control arms or drop brackets first. This should clear up most of your issues. Low caster not only causes the flighty steering, but also twitchy steering (what you may think is bump steer). Loose/worn steering components will also cause bump steer like symptoms. Ensure everything is tight, ball joints and tie rod ends are all in good shape.
Good luck.. Nothing is more frustrating then a poor handling jeep.
10-17-2014 12:19 AM
WranglerChik
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post

MC feels you don't need it, but for the most part. The 3" bumpstop needed limits up travel. Uotravel is built into their 6-PAC shocks and high line fenders.
It really comes down to personal opinion and how the jeep handles post lift install.

Steering correction does a few things
- flips the drag link and raises the track bar correcting Steering geometry (reduces bump steer)
- raises front roll center
- the front drag link flipped takes some of the force off the pitman arm/steering box.
- raises the swaybar links
3" lift and 3" bump stop (or frame notch) required.
Hey Ken (Ken right? That's what I thought I saw)

I'm going to get upper and lower front control arms...do you think getting a steering correction kit would be overdoing it? Can you recommend any? Trying to get rid of that nose dive and bump steer and improve my handling on the highway.

The front is for now till I can replace the rear control arms as well.

I pretty much mortgaged a home, not a Jeep. Haha
10-15-2014 08:40 AM
Steve2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post

The only negative is bumpstop/loss in uptravel.
3.5 is a good amount of lift, I almost guarantee a handling improvement ... Even over stock with the better equipment you have. The increase in front roll center will stabilize the jeep quick maneuvering/cornering.
Frame notching is a way to limit bump stop if needed. A member mentioned having it done for a couple hundred bucks.

Rock Krawler recently posted how to check for bump steer while parked. Jump on the front bumper as you look at the steering wheel for movement.
Unbelievable ... Never though of doing this
Thanks, I will have to do the bumper test. I am not real sure if I want to cut on my frame. I will put that off for a while until I figure out exactly how necessary that is for a DD and still occasional off road.
10-15-2014 06:57 AM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkewl View Post
I don't wheel or off road much at all. This thing is way too expensive to just bang around some rocks. I have also heard horror stories about lifted jeeps having terrible rides... So... Maybe for the short term a leveling kit of some sort until I am in a better financial situation for a nice lift. Maybe 2 inch spacers, bumpstops and some rancho shocks... Or is going cheap spacers/no coils going to destroy the ride more than anything? SHould I just save up the 1400 for a lift? (plus tires...plus wheels... ) Arrrgh...
Check out the combo 2" Rancho kit w/ 9000's
10-15-2014 06:10 AM
Unkewl
Wussing Out

I don't wheel or off road much at all. This thing is way too expensive to just bang around some rocks. I have also heard horror stories about lifted jeeps having terrible rides...

So... Maybe for the short term a leveling kit of some sort until I am in a better financial situation for a nice lift. Maybe 2 inch spacers, bumpstops and some rancho shocks... Or is going cheap spacers/no coils going to destroy the ride more than anything? SHould I just save up the 1400 for a lift? (plus tires...plus wheels... )

Arrrgh...
10-15-2014 04:39 AM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2012 View Post
Ken, on the fence about the DL flip. I have absolutely no complaints in the way my JK handles. I have had 5 lifted JKU's as demos from work that I drove all for at least 5-8k miles and mine is hands down the best I have driven. They were all basic skyjacker, pro comp type lifts though so I do know how a poor handling lifted JK drives. Could it improve handling enough to justify it? I understand less chance of banging on a rock, but can an unflipped stronger Synergy DL still improve strength enough? Just wondering if the 3 inch BS is worth having once I cut/change out fenders for marginal handling improvement or strength? Thanks for the knowledge as always.
The only negative is bumpstop/loss in uptravel.
3.5 is a good amount of lift, I almost guarantee a handling improvement ... Even over stock with the better equipment you have. The increase in front roll center will stabilize the jeep quick maneuvering/cornering.
Frame notching is a way to limit bump stop if needed. A member mentioned having it done for a couple hundred bucks.

Rock Krawler recently posted how to check for bump steer while parked. Jump on the front bumper as you look at the steering wheel for movement.
Unbelievable ... Never though of doing this
10-14-2014 10:31 PM
Steve2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post

MC feels you don't need it, but for the most part. The 3" bumpstop needed limits up travel. Uotravel is built into their 6-PAC shocks and high line fenders.
It really comes down to personal opinion and how the jeep handles post lift install.

Steering correction does a few things
- flips the drag link and raises the track bar correcting Steering geometry (reduces bump steer)
- raises front roll center
- the front drag link flipped takes some of the force off the pitman arm/steering box.
- raises the swaybar links
3" lift and 3" bump stop (or frame notch) required.
Ken, on the fence about the DL flip. I have absolutely no complaints in the way my JK handles. I have had 5 lifted JKU's as demos from work that I drove all for at least 5-8k miles and mine is hands down the best I have driven. They were all basic skyjacker, pro comp type lifts though so I do know how a poor handling lifted JK drives. Could it improve handling enough to justify it? I understand less chance of banging on a rock, but can an unflipped stronger Synergy DL still improve strength enough? Just wondering if the 3 inch BS is worth having once I cut/change out fenders for marginal handling improvement or strength? Thanks for the knowledge as always.
10-14-2014 10:02 PM
Steve2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post

The game charger with OME shocks is pretty sweet. There's been a few people on the forums running the 9000's-MC with good results. That is going to be your choice.

I have no experience w/ the brand. MT's can be a little grippy on the road., but better off road. It all depends on how you're going to use the jeep.

Nice choice in everything you have here listed
I am running the Rancho's on the 3.5 duroflex on my 2 dr. Very good ride, handles very well. I can imagine on a longer wheel base JKU it would ride even smoother. Good choice either way, quality suspension.
10-14-2014 08:40 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by WranglerChik View Post
Oh! And how would I know if my guy adjusts the caster? Is that a given?
Not a given ... The kit will have to include adjustable control arms or drop brackets. Caster is not adjustable on a stock JK. A reputable 4x4 shop SHOUlD be able to adjust control arms to the right lengths. If you decide on drop brackets, caster angle is built in to them. Bolt up and go ....
10-14-2014 08:28 PM
WranglerChik
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
This is just to help with your lift. Some basic questions I see asked a lot on the forum ie. alignment, do I need XX, etc. Ill gladly go over and help choose a kit for your Jk. I am in not a suspension expert but know my way around. If something here is not covered ... Please ask. If I can't answer the question. I will do my best to find the answer for you. Don't be afraid to post here. the question/answer can help somebody in the future. GOOD LUCK !!!!!!

Tourque your boltsTourque specs for the jk can be found HERE

Death wobble: it's very important to properly torque your suspension bolts with the jeeps weight fully on the axles/tires. Not doing so can have the bushings in a bind and lead to problems. Death wobble is extreme. The front axle wanting to rip from the jeep, only stopped by coming to a complete stop. if not fixed can continue to reek havoc on your front end. The front axle is constrained by your upper and lower CA's and track bar. Usually a loose or bad Ca/bushing is not enough to for DW, any other lose or worn component for that matter. Add a bad track bar/track bar bushing or worn mount hole-all bets are off. Please see PlanMan's thread here on DW. Also the sticky on the grade 8 bolt upgrade. DW is serious and can cause a train reaction of broken parts if not fixed. Remember to always fully check torque periodically. Mark your bolts using a paint marker for a visual.

Flighty/loose steering: If the jeep is lifted without caster correction, you might feel the steering to be flighty. The reason, adding lift height lowers caster. positive caster helps the steering wheels return to center. The stock Jk has around 4* caster and light compared to other vehicles. At 3" if height, you will likely want to adjust for more caster. Some of the cheaper lifts are for a reason. No caster correction is one of them.
Some fixes for caster angle
cam bolts (I do not recommend) Control arm drop brackets (AEV/Rancho/RC) Fixed length control arms Adjustable control arms Cut and rotating the C's or a aftermarket housing like Prorock or TF I just learned of folks using off set ball joints for caster. It's all new to me so I can't help you here Some info on caster here

Alignment:
Steering wheel not center You will need to adjust your steering wheel back to center using the drag link. If you have a Procal it can assist in doing so.
Toe Should be no change but ideally you want total 1/8 to 1/16 in. Bigger tires you might need to increase toe from what it was factory.
Camber If camber is out of spec you have bigger problems. Bent axle tube and/or C or possible balljoint issue.
Caster see above. Stock 4.2*

"Do I need control arms? "You have 8 control arms that are not adjustable. Adjustable CA's correct axle angles (pinion/caster)and wheel base. Adding height the axle rotates up and towards center.
Aftermarket control arms typically have better joints for less bind and clearance for bigger tires. Longer control arms will also help the axle not steer itself as the axle articulates. If you look at any pic with a jeep flexing w/ stock CA's. The drooped side will pull in towards the pitch seem. Long arms fix this totally but short arms will help a bit.
Ideally you want all 8, for pinion angles/caster and wheel base.

"Do you need all 8" No ... On a budget, Front lowers are commonly used for caster (adj'd longer then stock). The Uppers can be used as well (adj'd shorter then stock). Next I would add rear uppers for pinion angle (especially with a 2 door shorter rear DS)
Another option is fixed CA's. For a quick fix ... Go for it. I don't recommend if you have any desire to upgrade in the future. A lot of times, folks will install drop brackets for the front caster angle, and rear uppers for pinion angle. Next rear lowers to correct wheelbase.

steering wheel jerks left/right over bumps: This is known as bumpsteer. Bumpsteer is caused when the track bar and drag link angles are too steep, lengths, and geometry are off. As you go over a bump with one tire, the jeep jerks and sometimes steers itself. Bumpy roads can be scary with a good case of bumpsteer. this really is not a issue until up around 4", but the fix is a steering correction kit Raising the track bar & flipping the drag link is the ideal way to fix bumpsteer at higher lift heights -returning the geometry back to normal. Some kits do this similar using a drop pitman arm. I do not recommend using a DPA, it actually puts more stress the steering box. lowering the track bar reduces front roll center. one of the other benefits of a raised TB bracket is roll center correction.

Roll center/trackbar brackets adding lift height lowers the jeeps roll center. this can cause poor corner handling/steering. Raising the track bars at their mounting points will return the roll center to stock or higher. also keep the axle better centered during articulation.
oversteer/understeer Raising the rear track bar alone (front remains stock)= A positive roll axis/understeer. a little understeer is a good thing.
Raising the front trackbar alone (rear remains stock)=a negative roll axis/over steer. oversteer can cause handling to be unpredictable. you definitely don't want this.
Most kits in the 2.5+ range will address the rear. Notes:
- A shorter wheel base 2 door, oversteer/understeer will be more pronounced.
- The front track bar can not be raised without flipping the drag link or running a drop pitman arm (see steering correction kit)
- track bar drop brackets only purpose is axle positioning or axle center. usually supplied in cheaper kits.

Axles off center laterally: Adding suspension height will shift the axles. Front to the driver side and rear to the passenger side. A adjustable track bar is used to recenter the axle.
I usually recommend the front first. this will add a little rigidity to the front end and firm up the steering. A 2.5' lift will shift the axles maybe 3/8", not enough to be a concern in itself imo.
A rear 'axle side' track bar bracket will center the axle up to around 3" of height. raising the rear track bar will also improve roll handling.

Axles not center in wheel well (wheelbase) to return wheelbase back to stock - or better. All 8 adjustable control arms are needed. Lowers push the axles for/aft, uppers set pinion and caster angles.

When do you need driveshaft's? Adding lift height steepens the angles the driveshaft's operate at. Adding longer shocks will allow the axles to droop further. Disconnecting the swaybar links-even more. If the driveshaft doesn't contact the exhaust/crossover pipe the cv will eventually fail.
Some of the Fixes-Exhaust spacers/y-pipes/limit straps or a smaller ID driveshaft. There is no magic number that says you will or will not have issues at xx height, too many variables. So just make a habit of crawling underneath and looking for split boots and spitting grease. When you do decide to swap out driveshafts, adjustable arms are now very important to set proper pinion angles. **note** In some cases, running a taller lift and aftermarket Drive shaft, some will have to give up caster for pinion angle to prevent vibes, or worst case-the TC damage. Best bet here is a aftermarket housing with 10* separation. Or like mentioned ... Cut and turn the C's

Swaybar end links: most smaller lifts sold, only include longer rears. The stock rears are used in the front. The swaybar itself should be parallel to the ground at ride height +/- a few degrees. If running a longer shock you run the risk of inverting the links and causing damage. Plus drivability will suffer not extending the links. Quick disconnects are obviously another option.

shock lengths: Shock length is your axles downward limiting factor. adding height reduces downtravel running stock length shocks. The stock Rubicon shocks are around 8"in travel iirc. Shock extensions are a inexpensive way to add travel. they work but limit uptravel if the jeep is set up to utilize all of it [travel]. Most shocks list lift ranges ex. 0-2,4-6 etc. but you'll want to choose what works best with your setup.

Bumpstop height: every jeep is set up different. Choose your tires and shock size. Then decide on bumpstop size. Extended bumpstops limit uptravel . this protects the shocks, keeps tires from rubbing the flares, etc.
If running a drag link flip, the drag link away from the frame at full stuff. Theres other possible interferences depending on different components, so its important to cycle the suspension [full bump and droop] to determine BS lengths.

Important note on lift height:
The general consensus is 2.5" is "safe" and you don't necessarily need CA's/TB's and all that good stuff. Yes this is true BUT. Aftermarket coils are designed not to sag under heavy weight. Some note that (listed heights are with a fully outfitted jeep). W/O bumpers, a winch, tire carrier, armor etc, it's not uncommon for a 2.5" lift to give you 1" or more in height.

My goal here was to keep this simple. If anybody has any questions, please ask and I will do my best to help. others, don't be afraid to chime in. this discussion is for all.

Ken
Oh! And how would I know if my guy adjusts the caster? Is that a given?
10-14-2014 08:27 PM
WranglerChik
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
This is just to help with your lift. Some basic questions I see asked a lot on the forum ie. alignment, do I need XX, etc. Ill gladly go over and help choose a kit for your Jk. I am in not a suspension expert but know my way around. If something here is not covered ... Please ask. If I can't answer the question. I will do my best to find the answer for you. Don't be afraid to post here. the question/answer can help somebody in the future. GOOD LUCK !!!!!!

Tourque your boltsTourque specs for the jk can be found HERE

Death wobble: it's very important to properly torque your suspension bolts with the jeeps weight fully on the axles/tires. Not doing so can have the bushings in a bind and lead to problems. Death wobble is extreme. The front axle wanting to rip from the jeep, only stopped by coming to a complete stop. if not fixed can continue to reek havoc on your front end. The front axle is constrained by your upper and lower CA's and track bar. Usually a loose or bad Ca/bushing is not enough to for DW, any other lose or worn component for that matter. Add a bad track bar/track bar bushing or worn mount hole-all bets are off. Please see PlanMan's thread here on DW. Also the sticky on the grade 8 bolt upgrade. DW is serious and can cause a train reaction of broken parts if not fixed. Remember to always fully check torque periodically. Mark your bolts using a paint marker for a visual.

Flighty/loose steering: If the jeep is lifted without caster correction, you might feel the steering to be flighty. The reason, adding lift height lowers caster. positive caster helps the steering wheels return to center. The stock Jk has around 4* caster and light compared to other vehicles. At 3" if height, you will likely want to adjust for more caster. Some of the cheaper lifts are for a reason. No caster correction is one of them.
Some fixes for caster angle
cam bolts (I do not recommend) Control arm drop brackets (AEV/Rancho/RC) Fixed length control arms Adjustable control arms Cut and rotating the C's or a aftermarket housing like Prorock or TF I just learned of folks using off set ball joints for caster. It's all new to me so I can't help you here Some info on caster here

Alignment:
Steering wheel not center You will need to adjust your steering wheel back to center using the drag link. If you have a Procal it can assist in doing so.
Toe Should be no change but ideally you want total 1/8 to 1/16 in. Bigger tires you might need to increase toe from what it was factory.
Camber If camber is out of spec you have bigger problems. Bent axle tube and/or C or possible balljoint issue.
Caster see above. Stock 4.2*

"Do I need control arms? "You have 8 control arms that are not adjustable. Adjustable CA's correct axle angles (pinion/caster)and wheel base. Adding height the axle rotates up and towards center.
Aftermarket control arms typically have better joints for less bind and clearance for bigger tires. Longer control arms will also help the axle not steer itself as the axle articulates. If you look at any pic with a jeep flexing w/ stock CA's. The drooped side will pull in towards the pitch seem. Long arms fix this totally but short arms will help a bit.
Ideally you want all 8, for pinion angles/caster and wheel base.

"Do you need all 8" No ... On a budget, Front lowers are commonly used for caster (adj'd longer then stock). The Uppers can be used as well (adj'd shorter then stock). Next I would add rear uppers for pinion angle (especially with a 2 door shorter rear DS)
Another option is fixed CA's. For a quick fix ... Go for it. I don't recommend if you have any desire to upgrade in the future. A lot of times, folks will install drop brackets for the front caster angle, and rear uppers for pinion angle. Next rear lowers to correct wheelbase.

steering wheel jerks left/right over bumps: This is known as bumpsteer. Bumpsteer is caused when the track bar and drag link angles are too steep, lengths, and geometry are off. As you go over a bump with one tire, the jeep jerks and sometimes steers itself. Bumpy roads can be scary with a good case of bumpsteer. this really is not a issue until up around 4", but the fix is a steering correction kit Raising the track bar & flipping the drag link is the ideal way to fix bumpsteer at higher lift heights -returning the geometry back to normal. Some kits do this similar using a drop pitman arm. I do not recommend using a DPA, it actually puts more stress the steering box. lowering the track bar reduces front roll center. one of the other benefits of a raised TB bracket is roll center correction.

Roll center/trackbar brackets adding lift height lowers the jeeps roll center. this can cause poor corner handling/steering. Raising the track bars at their mounting points will return the roll center to stock or higher. also keep the axle better centered during articulation.
oversteer/understeer Raising the rear track bar alone (front remains stock)= A positive roll axis/understeer. a little understeer is a good thing.
Raising the front trackbar alone (rear remains stock)=a negative roll axis/over steer. oversteer can cause handling to be unpredictable. you definitely don't want this.
Most kits in the 2.5+ range will address the rear. Notes:
- A shorter wheel base 2 door, oversteer/understeer will be more pronounced.
- The front track bar can not be raised without flipping the drag link or running a drop pitman arm (see steering correction kit)
- track bar drop brackets only purpose is axle positioning or axle center. usually supplied in cheaper kits.

Axles off center laterally: Adding suspension height will shift the axles. Front to the driver side and rear to the passenger side. A adjustable track bar is used to recenter the axle.
I usually recommend the front first. this will add a little rigidity to the front end and firm up the steering. A 2.5' lift will shift the axles maybe 3/8", not enough to be a concern in itself imo.
A rear 'axle side' track bar bracket will center the axle up to around 3" of height. raising the rear track bar will also improve roll handling.

Axles not center in wheel well (wheelbase) to return wheelbase back to stock - or better. All 8 adjustable control arms are needed. Lowers push the axles for/aft, uppers set pinion and caster angles.

When do you need driveshaft's? Adding lift height steepens the angles the driveshaft's operate at. Adding longer shocks will allow the axles to droop further. Disconnecting the swaybar links-even more. If the driveshaft doesn't contact the exhaust/crossover pipe the cv will eventually fail.
Some of the Fixes-Exhaust spacers/y-pipes/limit straps or a smaller ID driveshaft. There is no magic number that says you will or will not have issues at xx height, too many variables. So just make a habit of crawling underneath and looking for split boots and spitting grease. When you do decide to swap out driveshafts, adjustable arms are now very important to set proper pinion angles. **note** In some cases, running a taller lift and aftermarket Drive shaft, some will have to give up caster for pinion angle to prevent vibes, or worst case-the TC damage. Best bet here is a aftermarket housing with 10* separation. Or like mentioned ... Cut and turn the C's

Swaybar end links: most smaller lifts sold, only include longer rears. The stock rears are used in the front. The swaybar itself should be parallel to the ground at ride height +/- a few degrees. If running a longer shock you run the risk of inverting the links and causing damage. Plus drivability will suffer not extending the links. Quick disconnects are obviously another option.

shock lengths: Shock length is your axles downward limiting factor. adding height reduces downtravel running stock length shocks. The stock Rubicon shocks are around 8"in travel iirc. Shock extensions are a inexpensive way to add travel. they work but limit uptravel if the jeep is set up to utilize all of it [travel]. Most shocks list lift ranges ex. 0-2,4-6 etc. but you'll want to choose what works best with your setup.

Bumpstop height: every jeep is set up different. Choose your tires and shock size. Then decide on bumpstop size. Extended bumpstops limit uptravel . this protects the shocks, keeps tires from rubbing the flares, etc.
If running a drag link flip, the drag link away from the frame at full stuff. Theres other possible interferences depending on different components, so its important to cycle the suspension [full bump and droop] to determine BS lengths.

Important note on lift height:
The general consensus is 2.5" is "safe" and you don't necessarily need CA's/TB's and all that good stuff. Yes this is true BUT. Aftermarket coils are designed not to sag under heavy weight. Some note that (listed heights are with a fully outfitted jeep). W/O bumpers, a winch, tire carrier, armor etc, it's not uncommon for a 2.5" lift to give you 1" or more in height.

My goal here was to keep this simple. If anybody has any questions, please ask and I will do my best to help. others, don't be afraid to chime in. this discussion is for all.

Ken
Damn it. I wish I would have seen this before I posted a thread on it. Sorry for that redundant thread and thank you for this write up. Very helpful.

Just to be clear though because I do need to buy more aftermarket parts to ensure safe drivability on the highway, and regular (but bumpy) roads.

I can hold off on the control arms and buy brackets for now? My Jeep is still fairly new. 5k miles.

My steering stabilizer is rubbing against my track bar (2.5" lift. RK Coil lift stock mod. Fox Performance Shocks.) What bracket can I buy or what do I tell my guy (bc he obviously doesn't know much) to do to stop this?

New front sway bar disconnects will be beneficial you mean? I will do anything to improve the handling and the incessant vibrations.

Can I replace the Pitnam Arm with a better one or should I replace the drag link all together?

Thanks so much! I'm sure I'll have tons more questions but for now, that's all my mind can handle. This stuff gives me a headache after a while. Too obsessed. Wish I could just do the work myself.
10-13-2014 04:10 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by x1buellist View Post
New guy, just ordered a 2015 JKU sport. Initially I will be taking it easy but will try trails that are increasingly difficult as I become better. Probably no rock crawling. I plan on installing a 2.5" lift with 35" tires. I will have bumpers/tire carrier/winch added eventually. I am considering a variation on the same lift and wanted opinions. The first is the Metalcloak Game-Changer ARB edition. JK Wrangler 3.5" Old Man Emu Duroflex Mid-Arm Suspension System The second is the Metalcloak Duroflex 2.5", add their Rear track bar and add Rancho 9000 shocks. JK Wrangler 3.5" Duroflex Mid-Arm Suspension System The rims and tires I am looking at are the Mickey Thompson Classis III wheels and Baja MTZ tires. I don't see a lot of people on the forum mention the MT stuff. Is it up to par? Mickey Thompson 5 17x9 Classic III Wheels in Black and Baja MTZ Radial Tires with FREE Mounting & Balancing for 07-14 JeepĀ® Wrangler & Wrangler Unlimited JK - Quadratec Just doing a sanity check. Seem OK?
The game charger with OME shocks is pretty sweet. There's been a few people on the forums running the 9000's-MC with good results. That is going to be your choice.

I have no experience w/ the brand. MT's can be a little grippy on the road., but better off road. It all depends on how you're going to use the jeep.

Nice choice in everything you have here listed
10-13-2014 03:32 PM
x1buellist
2015 JKU, 2.5" Metalcloak, 35" tires

New guy, just ordered a 2015 JKU sport. Initially I will be taking it easy but will try trails that are increasingly difficult as I become better. Probably no rock crawling. I plan on installing a 2.5" lift with 35" tires. I will have bumpers/tire carrier/winch added eventually.
I am considering a variation on the same lift and wanted opinions.

The first is the Metalcloak Game-Changer ARB edition.
JK Wrangler 3.5" Old Man Emu Duroflex Mid-Arm Suspension System
The second is the Metalcloak Duroflex 2.5", add their Rear track bar and add Rancho 9000 shocks.
JK Wrangler 3.5" Duroflex Mid-Arm Suspension System

The rims and tires I am looking at are the Mickey Thompson Classis III wheels and Baja MTZ tires. I don't see a lot of people on the forum mention the MT stuff. Is it up to par?
Mickey Thompson 5 17x9 Classic III Wheels in Black and Baja MTZ Radial Tires with FREE Mounting & Balancing for 07-14 JeepĀ® Wrangler & Wrangler Unlimited JK - Quadratec

Just doing a sanity check. Seem OK?
10-12-2014 04:10 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by 257WBYMAG View Post
kjeeper10, about to order this: 2.25 bb with 2" bumpstops f&r, 2.5" Ranchos longer than stock. wheels are 15x9 w/4.5" backspacing and 32/11.50/15. will this work or what do i need to adjust? the wheels are KMC XD series aluminum to hopefully save some weight over the steelies. from doing a search the 4.5" backspacing is max. thanks for any input, new to Jeeps. one other thing, what is the center bore or hub? would like to add hub rings if these rims are lug centric.
Welcome

The Jk I believe has a 71.5 hub dimension. Not all wheels allow for hub rings, just be aware of that. With my previous Vipers, I could not run the center caps w/ rings.
I'm not using them now but torque the wheel in steps in a X Pattern. What I mean 15 ft lbs, 45 ft lbs, 75 ft lbs and lastly 100 ft lbs.

A 11.5 wheel is narrow, is that what you want ?
One thing to check into, if ok to run 11.5 on a 9" wheel. I think you'd be better off with a 8" wheel.

29xl and 30xl are the Rancho's you want. 2" bump stop should work. When installing the lift, bolt up the shocks and cycle the axles. This will help determine bump stop height to get the most out of the suspension.
10-12-2014 03:59 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by scj64 View Post
Thank you. Is there a link to or a kit that explains/corrects this
The kit itself ?
http://www.synergymfg.com/Synergy-Je...l#.VDrq7Hi9LCQ

Mine, but the track bar bracket was replaced with Artec weld on.
10-12-2014 03:57 PM
257WBYMAG kjeeper10, about to order this: 2.25 bb with 2" bumpstops f&r, 2.5" Ranchos longer than stock. wheels are 15x9 w/4.5" backspacing and 32/11.50/15. will this work or what do i need to adjust? the wheels are KMC XD series aluminum to hopefully save some weight over the steelies. from doing a search the 4.5" backspacing is max. thanks for any input, new to Jeeps. one other thing, what is the center bore or hub? would like to add hub rings if these rims are lug centric. 2004 Wrangler 6cylinder Sahara auto.
10-12-2014 03:05 PM
scj64
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
MC feels you don't need it, but for the most part. The 3" bumpstop needed limits up travel. Uotravel is built into their 6-PAC shocks and high line fenders.
It really comes down to personal opinion and how the jeep handles post lift install.

Steering correction does a few things
- flips the drag link and raises the track bar correcting Steering geometry (reduces bump steer)
- raises front roll center
- the front drag link flipped takes some of the force off the pitman arm/steering box.
- raises the swaybar links
3" lift and 3" bump stop (or frame notch) required.
Thank you.

Is there a link to or a kit that explains/corrects this
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