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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-31-2010 07:11 PM
s3nt3nc3d This is a little off topic, but kind of related to the topic at hand...and it's an honest question, not an argument.

While changing my oil today (went with standard, conventional Valvoline 10w-30...first time in years I haven't used Mobil 1...with a Mopar filter--$25 total at Walmart), I had my Jeep on the lift at work and was walking around inspecting the underside a bit more thoroughly since I actually had room to move my head and really look at stuff. I live in the "salt belt"...where each winter, they dump tons and tons of salt on the roads. And anybody who works on vehicles or lives in the midwest knows that salt causes tons of rusting issues. My Jeep has quite a bit of rust on the underside...considerably more than my 98 Dakota had, even after I sold it.

Why do auto manufacturers not apply undercoating to the underside of the vehicles before they roll them off the line? Is this a marketing ploy so we will be forced to replace our vehicles more frequently or what? It seems like if they really were going to do what's best for the life of the vehicle, they would apply undercoating to each vehicle that comes off the line...

Btw...completely unrelated, but I don't feel like starting a new thread for something so simple. While changing my oil today, I was once again reminded why I ALWAYS change my own oil. The last time my oil was changed was 3020 (yeah...I ran over by a whole 20 miles...lol) miles ago. Which was the weekend before I purchased my Jeep. The dealership I work for did it. By the time I got the filter to start spinning, I had twisted the upper half of the filter nearly an inch putting a very nice dent in the filter.

Removing the oil pan drain plug was not quite as damaging...but I think they torqued the damn thing about as tight as my lug nuts. The current owner is a good friend of mine so I'm going to have him "remind" their techs that there is absolutely no need to apply 150 ft lbs of torque to an oil filter and if they'd look at the little pictures right on the oil filter, it shows to turn the filter one full turn after it's snug...not 5. ...and impact wrenches on drain plugs =/= the proper way to tighten the plug. At least my next oil change will be easier...lol
03-31-2010 03:00 PM
rrich I know I may sound like I work or have some connection with a dealership. I deal with the one in Yucca Valley, I've gotten to know most everyone there - including the owner. I've bought 4 vehicles from them too.
But there really isn't any connection. I don't now, or have ever worked for Chrysler or Jeep - or any other carmaker or dealer for that matter. My 45 years or so of experience has been in the automotive industry, but not OEM. I've owned 3 repair businesses, a Formula 1 Chassis builder, and lots of other unrelated businesses (17 total.) And, all the while I worked as an outside salesman for automotive equipment manufacturers - scopes, exhaust analyzers, dynos, etc.

I'm 95% retired now, the health is failing - Don't get old! I did and I hate it!


All I try to do here give advice on what works and what doesn't. I apologize if I get too insistent. I see it everyday here - people trying to use inferior parts. Some things don't matter much, but some things do.
Places like AutoChina irk me no end. They sell stuff that's sub quality. It's obvious here that lots of people fall for it - and accept junk. Look at how many buy a starter or alternator, take it back once or twice or more until they finally get one that works. Then a year later they have to do it again. But it has a warranty!

There have been many many posts on here showing that sensors from them don't work initially, or don't last. For starters and the like I go directly to a rebuilder - most do a better job and are cheaper than the junk houses -- and you don't get silver paint on your hands - they actually clean them! Imagine that!

Critical things like sensors I've found the dealership is most likely to have better ones, and they also have the updated versions, if any.

No Jerry, I don't use dealership oil in my engines. I use nothing but Valvoline - and change it frequently. My loyalty may in part be left over when they were my main sponsor when I ran Sprint Cars. Valvoline and Champion were absolutely incredible!

As far as the trans oil goes, it's been my experience - and obviously other's experience too, that when a MANUAL TRANSMISSION has a shifting problem, hangs shifts, bumps, grinds, hard to shift etc. and if it's not the clutch (and that's easy to determine,) then often a simple fluid change solves the problem.
Using the correct oil that Chrysler calls out seems to be a big problem for some people. I can't believe it's the slightly higher cost, after all it's only slightly more than a quart, and we are talking just a few pennies per quart.

Maybe it's the indoctrination by the knock-off's advertising?
Maybe it's their hatred of Jeep? Then why do they still own one? Maybe a Hummer would be better for them?

I've had customers come to me with the problem. Some have already put in the phony oils, they tell me it helped awhile, but now it's shifting hard again. Before suggesting they take it to someone that will rebuild it (I used to, but no longer,) I suggest a drain and flush. I refill it with the oil I get at the dealership - the recommended stuff FOR THAT TRANNY.

So far, in several years of this, it's always done the trick. But, it's not to be confused with actual mechanical damage inside - broken synchro rings etc. If it shifts hard for a long time, chances are you will break it - then it has to come apart. But an experienced guy can feel it when it has broken parts.
It's less than $100 for a drain, flush and fill, oil included vs close to $1000 for a rebuild. But some folks would rather have the rebuild. Go figure!


To clarify things here - some seem to get very confused - the transmissions I'm talking about are MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS. They are easy to identify - they have a clutch pedal!

Automatic Transmissions are a completely different subject, they operate differently, get serviced differently, and use an entirely different fluid. Someone please explain the differences to neil - he seems to think they are the same thing.


Like I said, I apologize for getting insistent. In the future I'll make a suggestion, and back it up with the "why" then let the backyard guys refute it or show their incompetancy. I DON'T CARE!

If I wanted to argue there are lots of places where politics can be discussed, or cussed.
03-31-2010 01:13 PM
Neil F.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Corrected, you accidentally typo'd manual instead of automatic.

Thanks for the notation and correction.
03-31-2010 12:28 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil F. View Post
Are those steps for the automatic or the manual?

For the automatic, there is no drain plug, the filter needs to be changed and 97-02 30rh/32rh the bands need to be adjusted.
Corrected, you accidentally typo'd manual instead of automatic.

The bands don't normally need adjusting on the 30RH or 32RH, that's actually a rare need for those two particular automatic transmissions.
03-31-2010 11:59 AM
TheTJRod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil F. View Post
Are those steps for the automatic or the manual?

For the manual, there is no drain plug, the filter needs to be changed and 97-02 30rh/32rh the bands need to be adjusted.
It's for an auto. I never changed a auto jeep but change my other cars like this. Sorry though, it is a whole oil pan that gets removed, just got mixed up at the begining. Also there should be a filter inside the oil pan. Is that the same for jeep autos?
03-31-2010 11:53 AM
adkjoe Agreed schmo, 95% of the people on this forum have much more knowledge on the subject than I, a couple posts back I told rrich he sounds like he knows a lot on the subject and has lots of experience. Not trying to crucify anyone I definitely appreciate his input but post after post it just sounds like hes a salesman for Chrysler. Don't mean to bash or get anyone upset by any means. Sorry if it came off like that.
03-31-2010 11:50 AM
adkjoe Theirs no filter to change in the NSG370 6sp is there?
03-31-2010 11:49 AM
Schmo
Quote:
Originally Posted by adkjoe View Post
Jerry, I'm getting the feeling he works for a dealership . rrich it sounds like this goes much deeper than "the right oil" it sounds like you have something against everything that isn't Chrysler. I'm not disagreeing that the Chrysler lube is a good choice but there are plenty of other choices that will work just as well. Like Jerry said, theirs 500 different brands of motor oil that provide great protection for your engine and they don't come from the dealership. Sure theirs cheaper less quality brands than others but damn man, get off the podium my transmission isn't going to blow up because I didn't use dealer fluid. Do you make a commission for every bottle of MTF they sell? you must...

This is getting a bit heated, but I appreciate the dialog as I appreciate the opportunity to hear from folks like Jerry and rrich who obviously have more experience and knowledge than I do. I don't know rrich personally but in reading his posts here and other threads, I tend to think he's simply trying to help out and give advice based on his experience . . . which by the sounds of it seems to be considerable. These are just opinions based on the experience he's had . . . don't crucify the guy for it.
03-31-2010 11:47 AM
Neil F. Are those steps for the automatic or the manual?

For the manual, there is no drain plug, the filter needs to be changed and 97-02 30rh/32rh the bands need to be adjusted.
03-31-2010 11:35 AM
TheTJRod
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokey View Post
I feel like I'm reading a boxing match....



I didn't see anyone answer on how to change the automatic transmission fluid so I will give it a shot.


Remove drain plug. Let drain. Replace drain plug. Remove tube from trans cooler to the trans, place tube in drain pan. Remove the tube going to the trans cooler. Shoot compressed air through tube going to trans cooler to get fluid out. Replace tube going from trans cooler to trans. Put tube coming from trans to trans cooler in drain pan(Connect a clear tube for easy viewing). Put a super long funnel in the trans dip stick hole. Put in half or more the required amount of ATF in the trans. (!!! NEXT PART BEST WITH TWO PEOPLE or more!!!) (The next two steps should be done at the same time!!) Have a person start the vehicle WHILE another person constantly pours in ATF. Have another person watch the fluid comming out or the person pouring can watch in between bottles. Once the fluid comming out looks like the fluid that is going in(ATF is normally red don't quote me though) quickly turn off the vehicle. Replace all the tubes. Run the vehicle for a few seconds to get the trans cooler filled. Check the fluid level and adjust as needed. YAY!!

Oh and I have the NV3550 5 speed manual. Only three types are recommended to be used. Dealer, penzoil syncromesh, and purple syncromesh. Since I put penzoil in the engine I decided on the penzoil, it is runny great. 2k later
03-31-2010 11:34 AM
adkjoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Rrich, I dunno why you think you must use a Chrysler branded gear lube in the transmission

Jerry, I'm getting the feeling he works for a dealership . rrich it sounds like this goes much deeper than "the right oil" it sounds like you have something against everything that isn't Chrysler. I'm not disagreeing that the Chrysler lube is a good choice but there are plenty of other choices that will work just as well. Like Jerry said, theirs 500 different brands of motor oil that provide great protection for your engine and they don't come from the dealership. Sure theirs cheaper less quality brands than others but damn man, get off the podium my transmission isn't going to blow up because I didn't use dealer fluid. Do you make a commission for every bottle of MTF they sell? you must...

and the closest jeep dealership is 52 miles south of me.
03-31-2010 11:05 AM
pokey One other point about using only Chrysler lubes. They discontinued the AX15 lube and will sell you plain old motor oil for your AX15 if you go to the dealer. Check it out. Redline all the way!
03-31-2010 11:01 AM
Jerry Bransford Rrich, do you use Chrysler motor oil in your engine? Of course not, and for the same reason that you can use other brands of motor oils in your Jeep engine and have it be well protected, you can use other brands of gear lubes and ATFs in our axles, transfer cases, and transmissions. I dunno why you think you must use a Chrysler branded gear lube in the transmission, you are the only person I've ever seen who feels that way in all the years I've been on the various Jeep forums.
03-31-2010 10:58 AM
Neil F. Yea it is in the links I in posted reply #23 right under yours
03-31-2010 10:56 AM
pokey I feel like I'm reading a boxing match....
03-31-2010 10:42 AM
rrich No, I didn't. Why would I go there? That's not the links you posted.

So it's a registered trademark, that means outfits like Amsoil, Tupperware, Royal Purple - the multilevel marketeers - have a product that actually meets that spec? When you read about their products they seem to have the sought-after products that so many other companies have claimed they had - new engines in a bottle! Just by their claims alone they lose credibility.

No matter, the point is what works, not what the multilevel marketeers like Purple, Amsoil, Tupperware, or whoever says. There obviously must be something different.

What do you think the difference is that makes the OEM stuff work so much better and longer even though the knock-offs claim to be the same?

Funny, the cost between getting the correct stuff from a dealer and ordering it on the internet is only pennies difference. Why all the fuss?

Actually I don't care what you use, it's your Jeep. If you want to use your prune juice, it's OK by me. But based on what you've said, I think it's better put to use elsewhere.
03-31-2010 08:01 AM
Neil F. Obviously you did not read linkhttp://www.centerforqa.com/licensingprogram.html "ATF+4® is a registered trademark." of Chrysler
03-31-2010 07:40 AM
rrich Your comments are interesting neil.

Obviously you didn't read the links you posted. Yes, Dexron is a copyrightable name, ATF is not. 4 is not either.

This thread was about manual transmission Jeeps, not automatics, and certainly not about Chrysler/Jeep's competitor, GM.
03-31-2010 05:39 AM
Neil F.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
So neil you are saying that Chrysler owns the words ATF 4? Nobody can call theirs ATF 4 unless Chrysler says they can?
Which words are the ones copyrighted, ATF? or 4?

ATF has been an abbreviation since slush boxes were invented.

My grade school must have been guilty of copyright infringement - she talked about 2+2=4.

If anyone is so dumb to put ATF anything (3, 4 or 2000,) in a manual trans, they deserve the ensuing problems.

This thread started out as a legitimate question, but it's gone dumb now.
Obviously they do not nor can own the abbreviation "ATF". "ATF +4" is a specific formulation of Automatic Transmission Fluid and a designation owned by Chrysler. That is no different from "" or Dexron which is owned by GM http://www.gm.com/experience/technol...ase_30NO07.doc http://fileserver.urimarketing.com/L.../dexronIII.pdf

You need to go back to grade school.
03-31-2010 12:15 AM
pokey
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Interesting thing about meeting specs -

Most all women meet the specs of being a woman when they are young. Height, weight, features, attachments etc. meet the requirements. But not all of them you'd want for 50k miles or more.

Some in short order no longer meet the initial specifications, some get too slippery, some generate too much friction, and some just stop working altogether.


As far as complaints about Amsoil, go back and read some of the previous threads recently where folks said they used it in their trannys, it worked for awhile, then it started hang shifting.
But go ahead and use it!
...wouldn't slippery be goood...
03-30-2010 11:31 PM
rrich I guess I'll just keep on making money for "magically fixing" most shifting problems with manual transmissions.

In fact, I'll raise my prices double and give a guarantee that if what I do doesn't fix it, double your money back!

I don't want to actually rebuild trannys anymore, I've done that for too many years.

I'll just dump and flush the purple, Amsoil, slick 50, STP, Lucas, or whatever witches brew is in it, and refill with the proper stuff! Even the correct fluid eventually loses the additives due to evaporation.

When Jeep orders a few thousand quarts of tranny fluid from Pennzoil or whoever, Pennzoil is happy to put in the additives Jeep wants. Is it still Pennzoil like you'd get at the parts house? That doesn't make it unique?

????? When was the last time you saw a transmission fail a smog test?
03-30-2010 10:41 PM
rrich Interesting thing about meeting specs -

Most all women meet the specs of being a woman when they are young. Height, weight, features, attachments etc. meet the requirements. But not all of them you'd want for 50k miles or more.

Some in short order no longer meet the initial specifications, some get too slippery, some generate too much friction, and some just stop working altogether.


As far as complaints about Amsoil, go back and read some of the previous threads recently where folks said they used it in their trannys, it worked for awhile, then it started hang shifting.
But go ahead and use it!
03-30-2010 09:52 PM
s3nt3nc3d I'm not entirely disagreeing...but as mentioned before, just because Chrysler uses certain stuff from the factory doesn't necessarily mean it's the best. Yes, it does guarantee that it'll work, but not necessarily the best. Chrysler buys from the lowest bidder that can provide a product meeting their standards. There may be better products out there (ie Amsoil -- I have yet to hear any complaints about Amsoil other than the outrageous prices), but if they weren't the lowest bidder...then Chrysler didn't use them.

Emissions also plays a big role... if the product worked great, but wasn't within the emissions specs, then Chrysler chose those that did meet emissions specs over the better product. A good example of this would be the 97-2004 Dodge Dakotas with the 3.9L engine. They came stock with a 195*F thermostat, even though Chrysler engineers themselves admitted that the Dakota engine ran most efficiently at approximately 185*F. HOWEVER, they released the Dakotas from the factory with the 195*F because they couldn't meet emissions standards with the 180*F thermostats.

I wholeheartedly agree about buying OEM sensors though... I replaced my TPS sensor a while back thinking mine was a little quirky. The new sensor from Autozone ended up being the "quirky" one...causing my engine to randomly "idle" at 1500 RPMs. Replaced it with the OEM TPS sensor I had removed...all problems vanished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokey View Post
If bato is still with us, as mrcarcrazy confirmed, the proper way to change manual tranny fluid is to loosen fill plug, remove drain plug, let fluid drain, replace drain plug, remove fill plug, fill to top of fill plug hole, replace fill plug. NEXT!
Is this the same on the 2002's with the NV 3550 (I think that's right?) 5 speed transmission? I was trying to figure out where to check the fluid level/condition on my Jeep and was beginning to feel kinda stupid... so basically I can't check it/top it off aside from removing the drain plug or fill plug underneath? Nice to know I'm not as dumb as I thought...lol
03-30-2010 09:05 PM
pokey If bato is still with us, as mrcarcrazy confirmed, the proper way to change manual tranny fluid is to loosen fill plug, remove drain plug, let fluid drain, replace drain plug, remove fill plug, fill to top of fill plug hole, replace fill plug. NEXT!
03-30-2010 08:43 PM
rrich So neil you are saying that Chrysler owns the words ATF 4? Nobody can call theirs ATF 4 unless Chrysler says they can?
Which words are the ones copyrighted, ATF? or 4?

ATF has been an abbreviation since slush boxes were invented.

My grade school must have been guilty of copyright infringement - she talked about 2+2=4.

If anyone is so dumb to put ATF anything (3, 4 or 2000,) in a manual trans, they deserve the ensuing problems.

This thread started out as a legitimate question, but it's gone dumb now.
03-30-2010 02:26 PM
adkjoe no problem your right as well and thanks for the info!
03-30-2010 02:24 PM
Neil F. Yes you are correct. Jerry brought up ATF and there are always questions about who's +4 is correct. Sorry for the off topic info.
03-30-2010 02:12 PM
adkjoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil F. View Post
Bottom line, any oil that states ATF+4 must be licenced and approved to do so by Chrysler. The products are tested to Chrysler standards.

ATF+4® Licensing Program

All of the following are licenced

Licensed ATF+4® Brands
we are talking about manual fluid not ATF
03-30-2010 01:56 PM
Neil F. Bottom line, any oil that states ATF+4 must be licenced and approved to do so by Chrysler. The products are tested to Chrysler standards.

ATF+4® Licensing Program

All of the following are licenced

Licensed ATF+4® Brands
03-30-2010 01:04 PM
rrich Did Chrysler put that on the Amsoil bottle, or did Amsoil?
Saying it complies with Chrysler Certified specs doesn't mean Chrysler agrees.

From what I've seen and heard of Amsoil, I wouldn't put it past them to twist it around. -- He He - I'll get some flak from that!

Read the threads where it's been tried - according to the folks on here that have tried t, it works, but doesn't last. I won't use it.

But try it - let us know!

I have a hard time accepting something when it's only sold in back alleys. But then, I bought a watch from a parking lot guy - $6.00 - I loved it, it lasted at least 10 years and looked great. Best one I've ever had.
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