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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-16-2014 12:43 PM
suicideking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
You guys should start a thread on cold air intakes............just sayin
Seriously. This has become a giant thread jack.
02-16-2014 10:33 AM
Big Vic You guys should start a thread on cold air intakes............just sayin
02-15-2014 09:28 PM
TerryC6
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganadam View Post
If you think adding five feet of tubing to an intake system is going to increase power, i have nothing else to say here. lmao.
Adding length to the intake prior to the throttle body/mass air sensor does not does change power or torque one bit. What will change power is removing restrictions and pulling in cooler air. Most any CAI on the market today will remove restrictions but the only thing I have seen for the Jeep that grabs outside air is the snorkel setups.
02-15-2014 09:21 PM
TerryC6
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluevr6 View Post
Totally anecdotal, but I have run K&N filters for the last 20+ years. Drop ins in some applications, and cone type in others.

I have a turbo Audi S4 (5cyl) sitting in the driveway with 255k miles on it, chipped to run extra boost since 30k miles, and a K&N drop in for last 150k miles. Uses some oil as blowby at the turbo (oil journal bearing, not ball bearing). Dry, wet, and leakdown compression show that engine is still within factory specs, less that 5% below factory max compression and leakdown. If a K&N were such a bad things, I believe it woulda shown up in this motor by now.

I use a cone filter on the AFM in one of my Bertone x-1/9's. Its a low mileage motor, at less than 30k, but as an autocross / timetrial / weekend cruiser, this motor also shows no wear from using a K&N (since 4k miles).

If used properly, at the manufacturers intervals, there is no downside to running a K&N.....

JMUHHO <Just my uppity high horsed opinion>
Yep and I have had to replace a turbo. It all depends on environment. I have no ax to grind here. I have run K&N type air filter since the 70's.

The goal is to increase airflow and there are many ways to do that.
02-15-2014 08:06 PM
Strokerswild
Quote:
Originally Posted by COStrider View Post
I've had similar results over long term use myself. Thanks for sharing your first hand data based opinion
Ditto.
02-15-2014 07:41 PM
COStrider
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluevr6 View Post
Totally anecdotal, but I have run K&N filters for the last 20+ years. Drop ins in some applications, and cone type in others. I have a turbo Audi S4 (5cyl) sitting in the driveway with 255k miles on it, chipped to run extra boost since 30k miles, and a K&N drop in for last 150k miles. Uses some oil as blowby at the turbo (oil journal bearing, not ball bearing). Dry, wet, and leakdown compression show that engine is still within factory specs, less that 5% below factory max compression and leakdown. If a K&N were such a bad things, I believe it woulda shown up in this motor by now. I use a cone filter on the AFM in one of my Bertone x-1/9's. Its a low mileage motor, at less than 30k, but as an autocross / timetrial / weekend cruiser, this motor also shows no wear from using a K&N (since 4k miles). If used properly, at the manufacturers intervals, there is no downside to running a K&N..... JMUHHO <Just my uppity high horsed opinion>
I've had similar results over long term use myself. Thanks for sharing your first hand data based opinion
02-15-2014 04:00 PM
bluevr6
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganadam View Post
If you think adding five feet of tubing to an intake system is going to increase power, i have nothing else to say here. lmao.
PLease look at heimholtz theory related to tubing size and length and its relation to torque vs hp.

Also, look at the BMW2002Turbo intake design. Very long tubing from turbo to intake manifold, which lead to severe lag, but once pressurized, made a significant amount of both torque and horsepower....
02-15-2014 03:57 PM
bluevr6
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryC6 View Post
Nope, in a boosted application I want the best filter I can get. Again the way I have done it in the past is find the filter and housing if required to get the most filter media possible, i.e. the most area. An example of the type of filter I am talking about is on my Vette and it came stock. The filter is massive.

The thing to remember is the more a filter is capable of filtering the faster it will clog up. Put a HEPA filter on your car and it will not take long and all before the car does not run do to lack of air.
Totally anecdotal, but I have run K&N filters for the last 20+ years. Drop ins in some applications, and cone type in others.

I have a turbo Audi S4 (5cyl) sitting in the driveway with 255k miles on it, chipped to run extra boost since 30k miles, and a K&N drop in for last 150k miles. Uses some oil as blowby at the turbo (oil journal bearing, not ball bearing). Dry, wet, and leakdown compression show that engine is still within factory specs, less that 5% below factory max compression and leakdown. If a K&N were such a bad things, I believe it woulda shown up in this motor by now.

I use a cone filter on the AFM in one of my Bertone x-1/9's. Its a low mileage motor, at less than 30k, but as an autocross / timetrial / weekend cruiser, this motor also shows no wear from using a K&N (since 4k miles).

If used properly, at the manufacturers intervals, there is no downside to running a K&N.....

JMUHHO <Just my uppity high horsed opinion>
02-15-2014 03:25 PM
michiganadam If you think adding five feet of tubing to an intake system is going to increase power, i have nothing else to say here. lmao.
02-13-2014 10:56 AM
TerryC6
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganadam View Post
They really don't have a place.
Now that is not really true.

Modern computer control engines are very sensitive to IAT, inlet air temps. Engine timing is either advanced or retarded based on this temp. The warmer it get the more timing is pulled. Under hood temps can be 30 degrees or more warmer than the ambient outside temps. This robs the vehicle of power. I don't know the 3.6 as well as I know my Vette engine, but in the Vette it starts pulling timing at 78 degrees.

What most people call CAI are not anything of the sort. To be a true CAI you must pull air from outside the vehicle. What most people assciate as a CAI is nothing more than eliminating restrictions caused by the stock air cleaner box. There is power to be gained there but if you don't address the IAT you are just pissing in the wind.

For the Jeep the only true CAI's I have seen are the snorkle systems. And there is no reason not to run a very good filter in them and get the ture benefits of have having nothing but ambient air entering the engine.
02-13-2014 10:43 AM
TerryC6
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganadam View Post
I just spent $5,000 to get a turbo replaced on my mack truck

They have K&N filters that fit in the stock filter housing, how about those?
Nope, in a boosted application I want the best filter I can get. Again the way I have done it in the past is find the filter and housing if required to get the most filter media possible, i.e. the most area. An example of the type of filter I am talking about is on my Vette and it came stock. The filter is massive.

The thing to remember is the more a filter is capable of filtering the faster it will clog up. Put a HEPA filter on your car and it will not take long and all before the car does not run do to lack of air.

Now as far as normally asperated motor goes, it depends on the invironment you live in. Here in wet Seattle I have no problem with running a K&N. Very little dust, the most you are sucking up is pollen and that will not damamge your engine. But if I lived in MOAB I would not, but I would figure out how to run a filter like the one I have in the Vette.
02-13-2014 07:27 AM
michiganadam
Quote:
Originally Posted by marslim View Post
Cold air intakes have their place... Would I put one on my jk? No as I believe for my uses the factory system is a much better fit, that being said they have their uses and advantages under different circumstances
They really don't have a place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m998dna View Post
There's much controversy over the actual gains a CAI provides .. not to mention the risks involved. First, the test protocol used to determine if the CAI provides any gains. Was the test on the dyno performed with hood shut or open? Many variables can lead the customer into the belief they should buy a Brand X CAI.

Also, when I owned a GCSRT8 and hung out on the SRT8 boards, it was matter of time, not when, someone would post a "help, my engine hydrolocked" thread.

When that happens I don't feel a bit sorry for those that install intakes and exposed filters close to the ground - just to grab the coldest air with a gallon of water when they run through a puddle.

The result usually costs them about $12K for all that cold air... and for what? Some perceived improvement in HP? Most guys lose more on the tree every run with slow reaction times than they will ever gain with a CAI.

As far as the benefits on a 3.8L or 3.6L motor... you're paying $300 to hear a bunch of noise.

.
lol, nice. Never thought about hood open vs closed on dyno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryC6 View Post
Not really. While I have been a life time user of K&N type filters there is a time an a place for there use. One place I have never used them is in a boosted applications or high dusty areas.

In either case a stock filter will just not cut it. Stock filters while they filter better also clog faster. It is pretty amazing to see how fast your performance suffers. But with turbo's spinning at over 100K rpms or in a very dusty invornment you are only asking for trouble running a filter that will not keep out the smaller particles.

The way around this is to install a much larger filter. If it has access to cold air even better.
I just spent $5,000 to get a turbo replaced on my mack truck

They have K&N filters that fit in the stock filter housing, how about those?
02-12-2014 06:01 AM
dgsholar
Quote:
Originally Posted by redvettx2 View Post
I miss flipping the air cleaner!
Growing up, I learned to drive on a 67 Impala SS convertible. It had a 396 w/4 barrel carb. To this 16 year old, flipping the lid made it sound awesome!
02-12-2014 05:13 AM
redvettx2 I miss flipping the air cleaner!
02-12-2014 01:01 AM
pig78
Quote:
Originally Posted by m998dna View Post

Yeah... in my street racing days we would flip the air cleaner lid upside down in order to hear the four barrel carb growl...

That was free...

.
Maybe I'm old, but I remember doing that just for the hell of it.
02-12-2014 01:00 AM
pig78
Quote:
Originally Posted by m998dna View Post

There's much controversy over the actual gains a CAI provides .. not to mention the risks involved. First, the test protocol used to determine if the CAI provides any gains. Was the test on the dyno performed with hood shut or open? Many variables can lead the customer into the belief they should buy a Brand X CAI.

Also, when I owned a GCSRT8 and hung out on the SRT8 boards, it was matter of time, not when, someone would post a "help, my engine hydrolocked" thread.

When that happens I don't feel a bit sorry for those that install intakes and exposed filters close to the ground - just to grab the coldest air with a gallon of water when they run through a puddle.

The result usually costs them about $12K for all that cold air... and for what? Some perceived improvement in HP? Most guys lose more on the tree every run with slow reaction times than they will ever gain with a CAI.

As far as the benefits on a 3.8L or 3.6L motor... you're paying $300 to hear a bunch of noise.

.
Now I feel the need to chime in on this. I had a 1993 Chevy K2500 when I was younger that I sold to my Dad. I put a CIA on "because it was cool". My Dad is now giving it back to me. I'm now looking for the stock intake for it, why, because a CIA has no useful gain for everyday use.
02-10-2014 11:23 PM
m998dna
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheRed View Post
...that noise is the ONLY reason I've installed aftermarket intakes on my previous vehicles. I dig the WOT growl.

Since my JKU will be seeing off road duty, the intake will likely remain stock.
Yeah... in my street racing days we would flip the air cleaner lid upside down in order to hear the four barrel carb growl...

That was free...

.
02-10-2014 11:17 PM
EricTheRed
Quote:
Originally Posted by m998dna View Post
As far as the benefits on a 3.8L or 3.6L motor... you're paying $300 to hear a bunch of noise. .
...that noise is the ONLY reason I've installed aftermarket intakes on my previous vehicles. I dig the WOT growl.

Since my JKU will be seeing off road duty, the intake will likely remain stock.
02-10-2014 11:02 PM
marslim Cold air intakes have their place... Would I put one on my jk? No as I believe for my uses the factory system is a much better fit, that being said they have their uses and advantages under different circumstances
02-10-2014 10:42 PM
m998dna
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganadam View Post
Not exactly. Look at the stock intake system, and tell me where you think the most restriction is.....and this goes for ANY vehicle. They usually have a bunch of bends, as it has to fit around a bunch of crap under the engine bay.

What if you had a intake that consisted of the same exact filter, on a much less restrictive set of tubing, bigger tubing with less bends, maybe totally straight, in a airbox with a bigger opening?

By the way, i hate the CAI abbreviation.

I've never run a "cold air intake" on any vehicle i've ever had. The gains are negligible, so why bother? Some poorly designed systems can be proven to be more restrictive than stock.

I'd rather have the stock system on my jeep. It's a great design, and is designed to keep water out of the engine.

I fly airplanes, and when you turn the carburetor heat on, it pulls unfiltered air into the engine. You always turn the carburetor heat on when you're preparing for landing, because you do not want to have any surprise losses of engine power when you're near the ground.......

Just an observation. Those engines are rebuilt every 1500 hours too.
There's much controversy over the actual gains a CAI provides .. not to mention the risks involved. First, the test protocol used to determine if the CAI provides any gains. Was the test on the dyno performed with hood shut or open? Many variables can lead the customer into the belief they should buy a Brand X CAI.

Also, when I owned a GCSRT8 and hung out on the SRT8 boards, it was matter of time, not when, someone would post a "help, my engine hydrolocked" thread.

When that happens I don't feel a bit sorry for those that install intakes and exposed filters close to the ground - just to grab the coldest air with a gallon of water when they run through a puddle.

The result usually costs them about $12K for all that cold air... and for what? Some perceived improvement in HP? Most guys lose more on the tree every run with slow reaction times than they will ever gain with a CAI.

As far as the benefits on a 3.8L or 3.6L motor... you're paying $300 to hear a bunch of noise.

.
02-10-2014 01:57 PM
TerryC6
Quote:
Originally Posted by colder View Post
To me, a high-flow filter means less filtering by definition. Combined with the fact that the gains are negligible if there are any at all, why chance it?
Not really. While I have been a life time user of K&N type filters there is a time an a place for there use. One place I have never used them is in a boosted applications or high dusty areas.

In either case a stock filter will just not cut it. Stock filters while they filter better also clog faster. It is pretty amazing to see how fast your performance suffers. But with turbo's spinning at over 100K rpms or in a very dusty invornment you are only asking for trouble running a filter that will not keep out the smaller particles.

The way around this is to install a much larger filter. If it has access to cold air even better.
02-10-2014 01:54 PM
14Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by suicideking View Post
Currently same Jeep and engine. It eats oil so he has to carry oil on him, has to do oil changes VERY often.
Thanks for the update. Hope he gets it all sorted out. Keep us posted.
02-10-2014 01:37 PM
suicideking
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Sport View Post
Just curious. If you wheeled with him a few weeks ago did he get a new engine? Or is it a different Jeep? Or did it turn out he didn't need an engine? Thanks.
Currently same Jeep and engine. It eats oil so he has to carry oil on him, has to do oil changes VERY often.
02-10-2014 12:49 PM
BigSkyJeep Not a dig on the OP, but I hate when someone starts a thread, especially one as dramatic as this one, then disappears for weeks/months. Personally, if I start a thread I check in/update on a regular basis, even if there is nothing interesting to report. Lets people following know that it hasn't been forgotten.
02-10-2014 12:39 PM
michiganadam
Quote:
Originally Posted by colder View Post
To me, a high-flow filter means less filtering by definition. Combined with the fact that the gains are negligible if there are any at all, why chance it?
Not exactly. Look at the stock intake system, and tell me where you think the most restriction is.....and this goes for ANY vehicle. They usually have a bunch of bends, as it has to fit around a bunch of crap under the engine bay.

What if you had a intake that consisted of the same exact filter, on a much less restrictive set of tubing, bigger tubing with less bends, maybe totally straight, in a airbox with a bigger opening?

By the way, i hate the CAI abbreviation.

I've never run a "cold air intake" on any vehicle i've ever had. The gains are negligible, so why bother? Some poorly designed systems can be proven to be more restrictive than stock.

I'd rather have the stock system on my jeep. It's a great design, and is designed to keep water out of the engine.

I fly airplanes, and when you turn the carburetor heat on, it pulls unfiltered air into the engine. You always turn the carburetor heat on when you're preparing for landing, because you do not want to have any surprise losses of engine power when you're near the ground.......

Just an observation. Those engines are rebuilt every 1500 hours too.
02-10-2014 11:01 AM
HK_Runner Have to wish the OP good luck! As an aside, I can't stand anything K&N and a CAI will never see any of my vehicles.
02-10-2014 10:50 AM
14Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by suicideking View Post
I wheeled with Russ a few weeks ago. This is still in progress and not BS. Thanks for stopping by and being a complete jackass though.
Just curious. If you wheeled with him a few weeks ago did he get a new engine? Or is it a different Jeep? Or did it turn out he didn't need an engine? Thanks.
02-10-2014 10:10 AM
JKatfish So whatever happened with the OPs Jeep? Was it resolved?
02-10-2014 07:23 AM
redvettx2 Catch can really. Sounds like I am living my MINI nightmares again. Without the catch can it gums up the heads and you need to walnot blast your engine on your dime every 30k miles. So that is not a design flaw? Chrysler learned something from the German's. They never make mistakes, just ask them.
02-10-2014 07:20 AM
redvettx2 My experience they will settle before you get to court they are as afraid of the courts as you are. Its a crap shoot at best. Park that jeep with signs in front of the dealer and you will get faster action. Trust me on this one. Go to another Jeep dealer with your signs and you will get faster action. Been there done that. when that dealer calls Jeep to inquire why you are in front of there store and you say because it has the same Jeep name and no service they will get you taken care of. It costs them money and money is what it is all about. Factory warranties are only as good as your servicing dealer. Period.
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