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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-28-2010 05:20 PM
Hilldweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samanator View Post
Want to shoot pics of the stock lighting on my garage door tonight for comparison prior to the conversion.
If you want to really see the difference, make some markers or use cones. Go out to a nice dark road or field and put your markers out in a planned spread. Shoot the picks with both the old lights and the new ones (all in the same place).
You'll be amazed; those new burners are more than twice the lumens (when you use a new harness and relays).

DS does know his stuff.
07-28-2010 10:57 AM
Samanator Just an additional note on this. I have the whole system coming from Daniel Stern including the wiring harness for $348 total. So this will put the Cibie H4 lenses with the Osram 65/70 bulbs. I know I can go up one more with the harness but we'll start here. Want to shoot pics of the stock lighting on my garage door tonight for comparison prior to the conversion. Hopefully the new stuff will get here before the weekend. I plan to pull out one of the fog lights bulbs since this is a 2010 and no one seems to know the bulb type for a 2010 fog light. That will be project number 2.

If you wish to contact Daniel Stern tech@danielsternlighting.com appears to be the best email address. The others have never gotten replies. If you don't hear anything in a few days send a reminder. The guy is a walking lighting encyclopedia. Personally I love dealing with these kind of people.
07-24-2010 10:40 AM
Samanator Finally have heard from Daniel Stern. He indicated he had a custom relay wiring harness to do the Cibie with the 65/70 Osram bulbs. I'm just waiting on the PayPal invoice to get this going. I actually turned on the fog lights the other day. I could see no difference on or off. Have to check them some time when I'm stopped to see if they actually work.

Interesting side note on those Phillips Xenon. The seller was all chatty and kept mailing me things back and forth to show their compliance to DOT. It was very convincing as I had indicated and had valid DOT number. Then I copied him on the note on the Phillips Automotive site that stated they do not make HID conversions kits for any vehicle. Crickets since then. As it turns out the DOT certs are for OEM parts not conversion kits. These buggers are very deceptive.
07-22-2010 05:52 PM
Hilldweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samanator View Post
I know Bill has mention buying the wiring harness from a Place in PA.
I did get a H13 relay harness from one source and found it would not plug into the Jeep H13 connector fully. After sending him 13 photos and a video clip showing why it did not fit (Since he naturally assumed I did not know anything... great for customer satisfaction) the guy suggested tie wraps and tape and said I was being too picky.
Sounds like the Northridge kit. It actually makes the voltage drop worse that Jeep designed in.

Best and easy thing to do:
Get the Cibie housings and Osram bulbs from Stern; it's a good value for the buck.
Then get the harness from Rallylights.com.


Second best and easiest thing to do:
Call Rallylights.com and get the Hella kit with Osram bulbs and harness; that's what I have and it's very good.
As DS points out, the peripheral light isn't as good as from the Cibies ----- but it's so much better than stock that I don't care...

The Rallylights harness first time, fast and easy. If you're good with a torx and don't have a winch in the way, the whole thing will take you one beer.
I took two beers with a hoop and winch in the way.
07-22-2010 12:27 PM
Mr. Sinister
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcarcrazy View Post
I'd be curious to own a set of those, I remember almost buying some a few years back, but something stopped me....dunno what it was now. My TJ is about to have H4 headlights, If they'd fit I'd buy a set and make a review.

I really don't have issues w/ OEM or aftermarket HID's on projector vehicles...I have utter hatred for them with reflectors.

i have heard nothing but good things about the HIR bulbs, but as you see, they only make them for the 2 sizes listed. they were originally used in john deere equipment and if you've ever driven anything john deere at night, you know they work.
07-22-2010 11:16 AM
mrcarcrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sinister View Post
you're right. i'm not sure if there are conversion collars or kits to put the 9005/9006 bulb in a h13 (9008) housing. might be worth the research.

FWIW, i run a HID conversion in my current beater, a 96 lincoln mark viii, because the factory headlights are possibly the worse headlights EVER. my 55 chevy put out more light than the stockers did in my 96. anyway, i've never gotten hassled by the law and once i got them adjusted properly, i don;t get the "high beam flash" from oncoming drivers. i've done a few hid conversion on various cars i've owned, with good results. they do work better with projectors, but you should at least have a shielded housing if you're going to use HID's because otherwise, you will blind the hell out of oncoming traffic.
I'd be curious to own a set of those, I remember almost buying some a few years back, but something stopped me....dunno what it was now. My TJ is about to have H4 headlights, If they'd fit I'd buy a set and make a review.

I really don't have issues w/ OEM or aftermarket HID's on projector vehicles...I have utter hatred for them with reflectors.
07-22-2010 11:11 AM
Mr. Sinister
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcarcrazy View Post
Sadly with the change over to the JK, the reply he sent me is only 1/2 useful...

tech@danielsternlighting.com is the email I sent my question to. I got a response back. It seems hit and miss with him (I'm sure he's very busy, since he is referenced on virtually every automotive forum online)



But based on that site do not come in H4 (or H13 for the JK's)

you're right. i'm not sure if there are conversion collars or kits to put the 9005/9006 bulb in a h13 (9008) housing. might be worth the research.

FWIW, i run a HID conversion in my current beater, a 96 lincoln mark viii, because the factory headlights are possibly the worse headlights EVER. my 55 chevy put out more light than the stockers did in my 96. anyway, i've never gotten hassled by the law and once i got them adjusted properly, i don;t get the "high beam flash" from oncoming drivers. i've done a few hid conversion on various cars i've owned, with good results. they do work better with projectors, but you should at least have a shielded housing if you're going to use HID's because otherwise, you will blind the hell out of oncoming traffic.
07-22-2010 11:06 AM
Samanator Thanks I've also sent a message to this email address. I know Bill has mention buying the wiring harness from a Place in PA. I really would like to buy a solution all from one person, this way if there are issues I can avoid the finger pointing between the sources that never gets the issued solved. I did get a H13 relay harness from one source and found it would not plug into the Jeep H13 connector fully. After sending him 13 photos and a video clip showing why it did not fit (Since he naturally assumed I did not know anything... great for customer satisfaction) the guy suggested tie wraps and tape and said I was being too picky. I suggested a return and did since if this was good enough for his other customers then maybe I am a little picky by wanting it to connect. The stock lighting is better than one that blinks on and off over bumps and does not work in the rain. I'd prefer not cutting the stock Jeep harness just in case I need to go back. These H13 bulbs are a real PITA.
07-22-2010 10:31 AM
mrcarcrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samanator View Post
Thank you, this is most of what I need. Since these are H4 I would need some kind of conversion from H4 to H13 wiring. Do you know if he has this?
Sadly with the change over to the JK, the reply he sent me is only 1/2 useful...

tech@danielsternlighting.com is the email I sent my question to. I got a response back. It seems hit and miss with him (I'm sure he's very busy, since he is referenced on virtually every automotive forum online)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sinister View Post
have you tried these?

HIR Headlights 9011 9012 bulbs

they DO work and are DOT compliant. you may need a conversion kit to make them fit properly, however. but it's no more work and a HID conversion.

But based on that site do not come in H4 (or H13 for the JK's)
07-22-2010 10:17 AM
Mr. Sinister have you tried these?

HIR Headlights 9011 9012 bulbs

they DO work and are DOT compliant. you may need a conversion kit to make them fit properly, however. but it's no more work and a HID conversion.
07-22-2010 10:13 AM
Samanator Thank you, this is most of what I need. Since these are H4 I would need some kind of conversion from H4 to H13 wiring. Do you know if he has this?
07-22-2010 10:01 AM
mrcarcrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samanator View Post
Bill good to know this. Since you use to live in my neck of the woods you know how bad many lighting systems are in the major down pours here in South Florida. This is why I like my vehicles that I have with the factory HID. I think it is kind of negligent on Jeeps part that this is not an option. That being said I looked and talked to the guys that make that projector set up and there is just too much cutting to have that be a real option. I would love to go over to something from Daniel Stern but the guy never replies. His lack of response to 6 emails over a months time have me looking at other options? I just don't know what those are.
Here's Daniel's response to me

Mrcarcrazy wrote:


Daniel, I'm looking to improve the headlights on my 2001 Jeep Wrangler (sealed beams).

Daniel's reply starts here
There are, as you already know, a great many brands of H4 lamp on the market. Most of them are garbage; headlight-shaped toys from the third world. We disregard those altogether because they are not even minimally safe, let alone an upgrade. The reputable brands (Hella, Bosch, Cibie…) are well made of high-quality materials, but there is still a large range of performance amongst them. I can supply any headlamp Cibie, Hella, or Bosch makes. Cibies are considerably better than Hellas. Take a look at http://dastern.torque.net/Photometry/Isocomparo.html

These are isocandela diagrams for Cibie and Hella 7" (large round) headlamp units. The 200mm x 142mm (large rectangular) units are very closely comparable, brand for brand. Why not photographs? Because photographs of beam patterns can be very misleading even if the photographer has the best of intentions, because pixels and film work in a fundamentally different way than human eyes. First, let's look at more objective comparisons of different headlamps' beam performance. The way to do that is with isocandela diagrams, which are generated by a machine called a photogoniometer that measures the intensity of light produced by the headlamp through a large range of vertical and horizontal angles. are just like topographical (elevation) maps, except the squiggles and lines represent amounts of light, instead of elevation above sea level. The beam pattern is correctly aimed as it would be on a car on the road, and each differently-colored line represents the threshold of a particular intensity level. Each diagram is plotted on a chart calibrated in degrees. Straight ahead is represented by (0,0), that is, zero degrees up-down and zero degrees left-right.

To get a mental approximation of the units and amounts under discussion here:

Parking lamp: About 60 to 100 candela
Front turn signal: About 500 candela
Glaring high-beam daytime running lamps (e.g. Saturn): 8000 candela

The parameters to pay attention to are the luminous flux (total amount of light within the beam), the maximum intensity and its location within the beam relative to the axial point (H,V) -- the less downward/rightward offset, the longer the seeing distance -- stray light outside the beam pattern and effective beam width (contained within the dark-turquoise 500 candela contour)

Things to notice about these two diagrams:

(1) The Cibie produces a much wider beam pattern than the Hella. The 1000 candela line of the Cibie's beam pattern extends from 25 degrees Left to 25 degrees right, while the 1000 candela line of the Hella extends from 18 degrees Left to 20 degrees Right. At a distance of 50 feet from the car, this means the 1000 candela-and-brighter portion of the Hella's beam is 10.5 feet narrower than that of the Cibie. The 300 cd contour of the Cibie's pattern is *far* wider, extending from 43 degrees Left to 50 degrees Right, compared to 26 Left to 25 Right for the Hella. This means the overall useful width of the beam pattern at 25 feet from the car, as perceived by the driver, will be 40.7 feet for the Cibie and 22.3 feet for the Hella.

2) The total luminous flux (overall amount of light) within the beam pattern is 695 lumens for the Cibie, 463 lumens for the Hella - the Cibie is 50.1% more efficient. (the TLF data is listed as "Luminous Flux" in the readings up above the isocandela diagram)


The high beams for these two lamps (isocandela diagrams not yet scanned in) are very similar in overall performance and amount of light -- the critical difference is that the Cibie's high beam hot spot is located closer to (0,0) and closer to its low beam hot spot. The Hella's high beam and low beam hot spots are separated by a fairly large vertical amount, such that setting the lows where they belong results in most of the high beam light going up in the trees, but pulling the high beams down so they send light straight ahead puts the low beams 10 feet in front of the car.

The most cost-effective lighting upgrade on your '01 Wrangler will be to put in a set of Cibie H4 units ($74.95/ea) with Osram 70/65w H4 bulbs ($22/ea), aim the lamps carefully and correctly per http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/aim/aim.html and _then_ (only then) evaluate your wants and needs in auxiliary lighting.

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07-22-2010 09:55 AM
Samanator Bill good to know this. Since you use to live in my neck of the woods you know how bad many lighting systems are in the major down pours here in South Florida. This is why I like my vehicles that I have with the factory HID. I think it is kind of negligent on Jeeps part that this is not an option. That being said I looked and talked to the guys that make that projector set up and there is just too much cutting to have that be a real option. I would love to go over to something from Daniel Stern but the guy never replies. His lack of response to 6 emails over a months time have me looking at other options? I just don't know what those are.
07-20-2010 05:07 PM
Hilldweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaharaCon View Post
((are you a police officer?))
I'm the administrator of a training lab for electronic test and measurement equipment.
From 1988-2000 I was a contractor that worked for the Broward County State Attorney's Office though, procuring witness for the Homicide, Domestic Violence, & Sexual Offender units. I still keep in touch with some old buddies in the Palm Beach Circuit Court system & Federal Marshall's office down there.

Here's why I hate those lights.

I got ready for a road trip in my F150 10 years ago; part of that prep included installing what I thought was a set of better lightbulbs. They were Sylvania Silverstars.
I didn't know how bad they sucked until week later when I was on US-64 in the Georgia mountains at night with a little foggy rain. I was blind; I couldn't see 10 feet in front of my truck.
I thought I just got a bad set of bulbs and returned them when I got home; living in Davie, FL (land of streetlights) and having a motorcycle as my primary driver, I really didn't need headlights at home.
Two years later I put a PIAA headlight in my motorcycle. Well, dang, I had the same problem. First bad weather at night and I was blind.
So I did a little research and I found out that I had been duped; the Sylvania Silverstars and PIAA bulbs are garbage.
So began my little obsession with lighting.

If you blind somebody with that little science experiment of yours and they crash, you can be put in jail. Putting in an illegal HID system is a felony and for a good reason.
If you think it can't happen, you're kidding yourself. I know somebody in mid-litigation on a case just like that.

I'm not power hungry; I'm just sick of being blinded by jack-a$$es.
07-20-2010 03:24 PM
mrcarcrazy He's not trying to be an ass. I completely agree w/ everything he's said. I'm by no means an expert but I've read and read and read for about 5 years about these "kits".

Some cars can get away with aftermarket HID's w/o replacing the housing. those cars are very rare. most are just 1/2 ass-ing it.

Read Daniel Stern's website, and send him an email if you doubt anything Hilldweller has said. Daniel Stern is a very bright individual (pun intended).

The biggest misconception is that an HID is just a brighter bulb. Its not at all. it works on different principles. Its kinda like apples and oranges. Both are fruit, but they are completely different. Read Daniel Stern's site for more info on these "fruits". Being flashed or not is a poor indicator of whether you are hurting someone's eyes. People know that those "damn blue lights" are bright as hell....they know that you did it intentionally, and that you aren't running your brights on accident. So to the driver coming up to you head on they just assume you are an ass...not saying you are...since I don't know you.

But if you blind me then you'll be an ass.

Hence why I'd like to at least see some quality shots of what the light pattern looks like.

I found some on Jeep Forum, and was not impressed.
07-20-2010 03:00 PM
SaharaCon I'de send you a link if i could, but I ordered them from a specialty shop, and have to get them installed, of what I'm told the ballast has to be taken apart and quite a bit of it has to be replaced... ill be sure to throw some pictures up here... its a great setup to have, I had this done on my eclipse for 4 years and it was a huge success... I never really got flashed for too bright of lights, only for a police warning...
By the way Hilldweller, don't take this the wrong way, but you seem to attack people on these threads regarding Lighting, Ive seen plenty of your posts and responses, and no offense, but your coming off a bit power hungry ((are you a police officer?)) towards people who are just sharing their opinions and recommendations... a little unnecessary, but i do appreciate the information I've gotten from a few of your posts...
07-19-2010 02:14 PM
Hilldweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samanator View Post
Bill I have been looking at all the options that you had suggested in my original posts. I've also sent about 5-7 emails and site reply to Daniel Stern and he, or they, just do not answer back for some reason. I did discover that the Phillips conversion kits are DOT approved.
Jeep Xenon Lights Kit by Philips HID
I've looked at the kits boxes and books and they give DOT approval numbers that appear to check out. They do warn in several places about having them set correctly.
In looking at my brothers Chrysler 300M with the HID it appears they use a similar Phillips setup on those from the factory. I'm not certain about all the current Wranglers but my 2010 uses H13 bulbs. I'm considering these since they seem to be a legal unless someone can show me something otherwise.
That link you provided is to a bootleg kit; Pillips would never put their name on something like that.
1) there is no such thing as a "DOT approved kit". The DOT makes rules and it is up to the manufacturer to comply with them to sell their products.
2) this kit is supplying you with rebased HID bulbs to fit into a reflector intended for halogen bulbs. If it were a legal kit, it would at least have a reflector designed for the HID capsule and would have standard HID bases.
3) no legal kit comes in a 6000K color temperature. Period. The standard legal temperature is 4250.


This is a legal kit. It addresses everything in the DOT regulations.
suvlights.com Osram & Valeo Sylvania Xe7 (7" round 6024) Bi Xenon Projector w/ Osram 4250K D1S
07-19-2010 11:24 AM
Samanator Bill I have been looking at all the options that you had suggested in my original posts. I've also sent about 5-7 emails and site reply to Daniel Stern and he, or they, just do not answer back for some reason. I did discover that the Phillips conversion kits are DOT approved.
Jeep Xenon Lights Kit by Philips HID
I've looked at the kits boxes and books and they give DOT approval numbers that appear to check out. They do warn in several places about having them set correctly.
In looking at my brothers Chrysler 300M with the HID it appears they use a similar Phillips setup on those from the factory. I'm not certain about all the current Wranglers but my 2010 uses H13 bulbs. I'm considering these since they seem to be a legal unless someone can show me something otherwise.
07-19-2010 05:15 AM
Hilldweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaharaCon View Post
if you say so...
Shielded HID's are not only legal, but when installed properly create no hassle for other drivers... You certainly pay more for them, but its a worth while investment...
Show me the kit, the photometric lab analysis confirming
DOT reg compliance, and I'll believe it's a legal one.
Like I said, there are a few legal ways to do it. And excuse me for my bluntness, but your posts don't lead a person to think you've got "legal" as your purchase criteria.
07-18-2010 10:45 PM
SaharaCon if you say so...
Shielded HID's are not only legal, but when installed properly create no hassle for other drivers... You certainly pay more for them, but its a worth while investment...
The fog lights are another story... but those are only used for off-road driving, they actually hinder your vision when driving on the road on a clear night anyway....
07-16-2010 04:32 PM
Hilldweller I've never been nauseated by a forum member before, not even by the chrome or pink paint.
But you managed it.

You have no regard for law or public safety.
07-16-2010 01:11 PM
SaharaCon I actually just ordered 2 sets of 6000k HIDs myself, obviously for the headlights and the fog lights... they are shielded, so i wont blind anyone, not to mention all 4 of the lights that theyre going in have been seriously tinted, which is one of the reason for the HIDs... they wont be here till next week, but ill be sure to post a few pics....

by the way, if you want to put HIDs in your fogs, just order a basic H10 set... the bulb size is like 9500 or something, but its the same as the H10 bulbs... i did the same conversion kits in my old eclipse, and the result was awesome, didnt blind anyone, but i also had to aim the lights down a little bit to do so....
07-15-2010 05:00 PM
Hilldweller And here's the abbreviated law:

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/dim...tml#post522041
07-15-2010 04:58 PM
Hilldweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warthog View Post
Legal or not you also have to watch out for the Amp draw. I was looking into getting HIDs for spotter lights until I saw the Aperage draw. I didn't have the math done by an engineer but 4 of those baby's glowing would out hustle my Alternator.
The significant amperage draw for HIDs is at startup; they sip the juice after they get burning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samanator View Post
No one cares in Florida, there are much more dangerous mods out on the roads here.
Maybe not yet.
But a felony is a felony, even if it's just a 3rd degree. And a $10,000 fine is a $10,000 fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcarcrazy View Post
Get projectors. HID's + reflector housing = blind everyone else.

I'm not a fan of being blinded, so I advise everyone against this mod, unless you're willing to put the money into it that is required to make it a good/safe mod.
Correct answer; good citizen.
HID Planet is devoted to safe, legal retrofits.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samanator View Post
All claims I have seen to date show no real reference to a law anywhere regardless if they are legal or illegal.
Read this and click to the links.
Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply
07-15-2010 11:55 AM
mrcarcrazy The sharp cutoff, is the projector housing, not the bulb inside....

If any of the HID clad wrangler owners don't mind. I'd like to see some night shots. I have a thread asking for this in the pictures forum.
07-15-2010 12:03 AM
Warthog Legal or not you also have to watch out for the Amp draw. I was looking into getting HIDs for spotter lights until I saw the Aperage draw. I didn't have the math done by an engineer but 4 of those baby's glowing would out hustle my Alternator.
07-14-2010 02:25 PM
thelinux I don't own a wrangler yet. But I did HID retrofit on my Honda.
See this sharp cut off line. No blinding for other drivers.

I love my HID retrofit. No need to worry about cops and gives me much intense light than just a bulb swap. I spent a lot of time and $$$ for this project but it's all worth it.



07-01-2010 04:04 AM
Hilldweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by jk'n View Post
Mass inspection checks aiming annually. So I suspect they are aimed correctly.
Spec in the US is a joke. 4" up or down from center at 25' and you'll pass.
4" up from center on a Jeep is pretty scary.
I'm not sure what Mass uses for their standard but the 8" swing is FDOT.
I know what you mean about twisty slow roads and using fogs. I commute to work on a couple of twisty dirt roads and need my HID fogs in the winter when visibility can be 10 yards or less; those seem to be the days that you find deer in the middle of the road, confused and reading road maps...
06-30-2010 06:56 PM
jk'n
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilldweller View Post
Sounds like your stockers aren't aimed correctly. Daniel Stern Aiming Instructions
Also, the fogs provide foreground light and actually detract from your ability to see distance well; they're only suited for driving slowly in the fog (or on trails).
Mass inspection checks aiming annually. So I suspect they are aimed correctly. The access road to the island is a slow road and typically when I am on unknown slow roads or roads I know are pretty well beat up with potholes, I use the fogs to show the imperfections up to try and avoid hitting them.

Point well taken on the lighting upgrade. If I get a hankering for more light, I believe that route is the one I would take. I'm still looking at it. It is on my possible mods list and, by the way, thanks for all of the information on lighting. Anything that I do on that part of the jeep, I would want to be within legal limits. I appreciate the information you have contributed.
06-30-2010 05:43 PM
Hilldweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by jk'n View Post
With stock lights on and the fog lights on, we were flashed and high beamed by just about every other vehicle driving in the opposite direction.
Sounds like your stockers aren't aimed correctly. Daniel Stern Aiming Instructions
Also, the fogs provide foreground light and actually detract from your ability to see distance well; they're only suited for driving slowly in the fog (or on trails).

The H13 was an ill-designed bulb; its sole intention was meeting a price-point by using cheap materials. The JK further castrates the H13's ability to illuminate by powering it with a convoluted wiring array.
A nice set of Cibies, H4 bulbs, and a wiring harness will provide a perfectly legal upgrade that has to be seen to be believed.

As a contrast point, my MINI also uses H13 bulbs. But they have much better reflectors and wiring; they put out so much more light than a stock JK that it's hard to imagine that they're exactly the same bulbs.
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