|06-17-2010 04:30 PM|
Still around - risky - way too risky now.
DCX.BA: Summary for DAIMLER CHRYSLER AG ADR- Yahoo! Finance
I'm glad I dumped it - put my money where it's better off. Jan it was 15-20 cents, today .51.
|06-17-2010 03:50 PM|
|shipjim||I didn't know there was Chrysler stock since its owned by a private equity firm since Daimler sold out. I guess with Fiat as a partner you could buy their stock but still not have Chrysler.|
|06-17-2010 01:54 PM|
|06-17-2010 01:34 PM|
That was a question about your statement
"Or bippin down the highway and encounter a slight rise or an uphill grade."
I did try your suggestion. Popped the tube off the TB and took a drive. It did not feel any different from before.
4.0 six with a manual
|06-17-2010 12:43 PM|
Now isn't that an intelligent statement?
Obviously it won't work on yours. Whatever you do - DON'T TRY IT!
|06-17-2010 09:58 AM|
|sparky||You're running full throttle down the highway, and for slight rises?|
|06-16-2010 11:40 PM|
Or bippin down the highway and encounter a slight rise or an uphill grade.
Hill climbs etc are usually done at higher R's, not mid range.
And of course, you are an expert now that you've tried it!
You did, didn't you?
|06-16-2010 07:23 PM|
|doclouie||X2 on the dyno variation and possible manipulation. I know people at two automotive companies that dyno everything and it would be very easy to adjust those numbers.|
|06-16-2010 05:30 PM|
No rpm was not mentioned, but any graph/chart you find by the CAI makers will show it. As an example, he is a selection Jeep Liberty Cold Air Intake - Intakes - K&N - 09 08 07 06 - PartsGeek.com, and yes they only talk HP.
My point still is, down at normal driving RPM, it doesn't matter, a stock setup will provide plenty of air.
The only time you see WOT at mid range RPM is hard acceleration. When do you see that. Blasting through a mud pit, hill climbs.
A daily driver / casual off roader, does not need this setup.
|06-16-2010 01:19 PM|
So true Jerry about the magazines.
Recently I became friends with one of the editors and writers of a major off-road magazine. He's written many articles about our sport for several years.
I found out he's never even been off roading! I took him up near the Hammers - on an easy trail barely needing 4 wheel drive, he was white knuckled! We turned back.
How can he be an authority when he's never even experienced it? I've offered several more times - always "too busy."
Magazines? Bah Humbug!
True also on dynos - especially chassis dynos. If you can duplicate it within 2% you are doing good. The biggest errors stem from temperature - engine, oil, trans, diffs, air, fuel, and tires. I've had 2 myself.
An engine dyno is far more accurate because most of those are eliminated or under better control. Never owned one, but I have used a friend's many times.
|06-16-2010 12:30 PM|
Dyno results are so easily manipulated that it's not even funny. In fact, even when you aren't trying to manipulate them, it's hard to get the same results between runs on a dynometer with the same drivetrain configuration.
Automotive magazines have never tested an advertiser's product where they couldn't find something good to say about it or find a way to show dramatic results from using it. It's usually smoke and mirrors to help their advertisers sell product.
|06-16-2010 12:08 PM|
Sparky - the chart - RPM was not mentioned in the chart.
Typically max torque is around 2500 RPM, not 5000.
Max HP is higher R's, but that's because how the formula for HP works. HP is a theoretical figure, torque isn't.
You can see how RPM affects HP by looking at the formula.
HP = (Torque (ft lbs) X RPM) / 5252
The most difference the better flowing intakes make is at WOT and mid-range RPM.
Funny, my previous post tells how to try it for yourself for free - too difficult or trouble to just disconnect a tube?
You can lead a horse to water ----.
|06-16-2010 11:58 AM|
They forgot to add what baseline the engines were being run at.......maybe the stock peak hp comes at 3500 rpm while the AEM peak hp comes at 6500 rpm........not very useable in my mind........
I'm with Jerry on this one. Save your money for something worthwhile. If you want to waste your money on something stupid, buy an H2. I, for one, don't drink the KoolAid.......
|06-16-2010 11:33 AM|
Every CAI listed shows an improvement in peak torque & HP, which usually occurs up around 5000 RPM with a wide open throttle.
Down around 2000 - 2500 for regular driving the stock setup is flowing just fine.
|06-16-2010 11:17 AM|
|tjjeepers||take it for what it is, i dont care...i have no problem with mine and i had the airaid cai long before this publication came out. ive gotten stuck in mud, thrown mud everywhere in under my engine bay and everything except for going through water, obviously, and there are absolutely no clogs and the filter isnt dirty at all. for the power aspect i believe what they are reporting because I have a kiwi gas mileage gauge and i did notice a difference in my gas mileage (increase). so whether its an advertisement or truth or mixture of both...so be it, i love mine and wouldnt go back...just my opinion|
|06-13-2010 11:36 PM|
|03 RUBI||Do you think that they wouldn't diss CAI's because they're advertisers?|
|06-13-2010 09:10 PM|
Anybody looking to know exactly what air intake to choose, refer to the February 2010 issue of 4x4 Garage - TJ edition; page 34 titled "Intake Shootout" writen by Pete Trasborg, this is dedicated to testing a bunch of aftermarket intakes on the TJ 4.0 6 cylinder engine. The results show:
ave. peak torque = 188 lb-ft
ave peak hp=142.3hp
all do respect to what everyone has said the magazine even states under the cons about stock setup, quote "doesnt flow that well"
No intake or filter(not recommended, test was done just to see what they got when it was all removed)
ave peak torque=192.3lb-ft
ave peak hp=150.1
"cons: no filter means lack of engine longevity, very easy for water to get into the engine, manifold burritos will be sucked into the engine"
AEM Brute Force Intake
ave peak torque 198.4
ave peak hp 155.1
AFE Magnum Force CAI
ave peak torque 199.3
ave peak hp 153.0
Airaid cool air dam intake system
ave peak torque 200.9
ave peak hp 154.0
Banks ram air intake system
ave peak torque 197.2
ave peak hp 152.7
injen jeep intake with mr technology
ave peak torque 197.4
ave peak hp 152.4
k&n fuel injection performance kit
ave peak torque 198.5
ave peak hp 153.8
mopar cold air intake system
ave peak torque 199.8
ave peak hp 155.6
pacesetter air f/x performance intake
ave peak torque 197.9
ave peak hp 151.7
rock it parts intake kit
ave peak torque 197.3
ave peak hp 152.3
rustys off road airtube
ave peak torque 191.6
ave peak hp 146.9
i recommend this issue to any tj owner, it is amazing and you will be able to read each intakes pros and cons their price msrp and so much more on the tj and aftermarket test!
log onto SIMBackissues if you want to find it
|06-07-2010 07:56 PM|
|03 RUBI||Good, bad or indifferent, I keep the water out of my AFE CAI by not going 50 MPH thru stream crossings because you never know what's just under the surface.|
|06-07-2010 02:58 PM|
"""""One thing rrich leaves out is that it's not pulling 4000 liters of air all at once as he points out then conveniently leaves out when he later jokes about how the air intake couldn't possibly allow that much volume of air in. Well, it does and it does so just fine."""""
Thanks for your response Jerry. That 4000 Liters is not all at once of course. And - It's 8000 liters of air, not 4000! The 4000 is engine RPM. If you want to see how much air that is at slow cruise 2000 RPM, simply divide that 8000 by 2.
Then, I also added how much air that means in one second (at 4000 RPM) - no tricks here - the 8000 a minute divided by 60. 133.33 Liters a second. Use a calculator.
The 4000 RPM figure was used for easy calculations. But if you want to know how much that is at say 2657 RPM, simply multiply the 4.0L * 2657RPM, then divide by 2. Use whatever speed you want. Not rocket science, far from it.
It obviously works as it is. But some folks are looking for a little extra. The stock airbox filters most of the dirt out, and it's a silencer. Those with other intakes have noticed the higher noise level. But many of those folks also want their exhaust loud, overshadowing any intake noise.
When you are straining up a hill you notice the difference more than at other times. You are usually running somewhere between 2500 and 4000 RPM on those hills. Less than that it's time to backshift to get back up on the power curve. That's when starving for air affects it the most - or giving it more air.
Try jogging with that tiny little airhorn over your mouth. If you can't breathe enough through it, how can your engine that needs lots more air?
Some will never believe logic - a few will try the suggestions and prove it to themselves, everyone else will just say "Huh?"
The air gets through, just not all of it, not as much as the engine "wants." If you were to measure the tube right after the box, you'd see a vacuum - caused by the restrictive box and tiny hole. A regular vacuum gauge probably won't give much indication, since a vacuum gauge is dampened and it reads the "average." But you can try it. ANY vacuum reading there shows a restriction upstream - basic physics 101. A manometer will show it clearly.
It's not just conjecture, it's fact. It's not what a guy that's worried about his job says. He's head, so he's got even more to lose. What would he do if one of his subordinates told the truth?
I can speak out - they can't fire me!
I also told how anybody can verify it for themselves - simple! Don't take my word for it try it yourself!
Can and will Chrysler fire anyone that tries it"
I already sold my stock in Chrysler, I was afraid your new prez would nationalize it like he did GM - where everyone with a retirement based on GM stock lost everything! He may still do it to your friend yet.
|06-07-2010 02:32 PM|
|Jerry Bransford||P.S. (the edit timer ran out) How many of us run out engines at near redline for a minute to ever pull that 8,000 liters of air into the engine within that one minute timeline rrich talks about?|
|06-07-2010 02:16 PM|
One thing rrich leaves out is that it's not pulling 4000 liters of air all at once as he points out then conveniently leaves out when he later jokes about how the air intake couldn't possibly allow that much volume of air in. Well, it does and it does so just fine.
And the Jeep engineer that assures us they designed the TJ's air intake to be 100% non-restrictive, Jim Repp, is not just any engineer. In fact, Jim is one of Jeep's most senior engineers, having been in Jeep's engineering group since the AMC days. Yes, he was designing CJs before the YJ, TJ, and JK were even someone's wet dream. Jim is also widely credited for having been the "Father of the Rubicon", it was his idea and his dream.
Personally, I will take Jim's word for what he says over anyone else's and he and I had several phone conversations on this (and a few others) very subject several years ago. And having had a TJ with all forms of air intakes including OE, K&N, TurboCity, and its present CAI (it came on the '04 Rubicon I just bought), I can say with personal experience that not a one of them made any difference in performance... at least none that I can detect with over 200K miles on two different TJs. Which goes right along with what Jim Repp says about the TJ's OE air intake design.
Finally, how did I come to have such conversations with Jim Repp? I was one of the first TJ owners back in 'early '96 and my 4.0L engine started developing a misfire that caused a series of misfire trouble codes. After nearly a year of asking in the various forums for help on it, Jim contacted me and asked him to call him. He had been assigned to figure out what the problem with that was hitting a lot of Jeeps & he just happened to find my posts about it. He ended up sending me a box of parts to try... clock spring, a complete set of fuel injectors and fuel injector wiring harness, PCM (engine computer), etc. and during my trials of installing those parts, we developed somewhat of a relationship. This was nearly two years before the Rubicon came out and he then started feeding me bits and pieces of Rubicon information to help kill some of the false rumors. We developed a pretty good relationship during that time.
Based on that relationship and Jim's explanation of how they came to design the TJ's air intake system as they did, most of which I no longer recall with much clarity, I'll just say that what he told me made sense and it makes a lot more sense than much of the above conjecture that isn't based on much other than what sounds right to one particular individual.
|06-07-2010 01:58 PM|
|greene91||nice post, rrich. I like a good explanation in a post like that.|
|06-07-2010 01:08 PM|
open up that breather?
I believe Jerry is right, it's not really worth the money for the very small amount of difference and, unless you utilize a very free-flow or non-restrictive exhaust, all athe air in the world will do very little. I'll also have to agree somewhat with rrich that it does help some by allowing the engine to be more efficient and responsive. I open up all my vehicles, intake and exhaust and recognize an immediate improvement in response however I'll add I did not realize any change in my TJ milage or performance.
|06-07-2010 12:52 PM|
Isn't it funny when it comes to this subject logic and reason go away.
You decide --
At 4000 RPM with a 4.0 Liter engine where cylinders "gulp" air every other revolution, it "gulps" 8000 Liters per minute. (4000*4.0)/2
Think of 8000 liters of coke! That's 133 Liters each second!
Now look at the tiny hole in the stock airbox where the air gets in - all of the air must pass through it. Picture cramming 8000 liters through that small hole. (But it doesn't restrict?)
When you jog you don't use even close to that much air - picture yourself trying to jog breathing through that little airhorn. Better yet, pull the little airhorn off and try it!
That's if the air was to flow smoothly, but an engine's inlet air isn't smooth. It pulses much the same as the exhaust (and like we breathe.) Those "gulp" peaks are much larger than the steady state flow. That's why hi rise manifolds work - pulses! The intake. like the exhaust, must be designed to handle those peaks.
The "engineer" that claimed the intake is not restrictive - I wonder where he'd be working now if he was honest and told the truth -- "Yes, Chrysler screwed up - it's very restrictive."
How long after a public statement like that got around do you think till he's fired? 10 days? 2 weeks?
Try it yourself - make a public statement that your company is lying about it's products - how long will you last? (Don't, it's too hard to find a job lately.)
To try it for yourself cheap. Disconnect the tube from the Throttle body to the airbox. Leave it open and take it for a ride. You'll prove it to yourself whether it makes a difference by getting rid of the airbox.
If you are uncomfortable with it drawing in unfiltered air for the ride, slip a cheapie cone filter on the tube - AutoChina sells them.
The cold aspect - yes, cold air is denser, therefore more oxygen will be ingested. It might make a slight difference - slight being .01 seconds in a 1/4 mile drag race. Running on a day when the Barometric pressure is up would make more difference. But when racing, that .01 second can make a big difference. Remember that next time you are in the starting line.
Underhood temps when driving are not that much hotter than outside air IF your cooling system is working right - yes I've checked it with a pyrometer. Cooling system also includes the airflow around the engine.
Yes, it does get hotter when you stop - but do you need the extra power when stopped? Think about it!
Simple and cheap. Cut the plastic tube a few inches from the throttle body and fit a filter on the end.
I used to like K&N, but once it let me down - dirt got in - no more K&N for me.
Trueflow makes a good foam filter.
Even the Trueflow is slightly restrictive, but you need something to keep the dirt out.
Yes, when and if more air gets in, the computer adds more fuel to keep the mixture right. The computer's adaptive memory soon learns how much that "extra" will be, so the mixture will stay correct.
But - the new total amount of air and fuel can now be utilized in a full throttle condition - thus slightly more power.
Mileage will probably drop a little, as you'll be flooring it more often - just for fun. Pulling up hills you'll definitely notice a difference.
The throttle body spacers - especially the ones with the internal swirls or ridges - they work on carburetors where the fuel is already mixed with the air - AND IF the carb is large enough to overcome the restriction of the extra turbulence - the swirling helps keep the fuel atomized. But our Jeep Fuel injections don't have fuel up there, it's added right by the intake valve. The spacer is only swirling air, not something you want. Swirling the air in the TB only adds turbulence - restriction - the very thing you are trying to avoid with a better intake filtration system. Self defeating.
Of course there will be "experts" that argue - that's the nature of the forum.
But try it yourself! Now you know how without a dyno.
|06-07-2010 10:23 AM|
|06TJinVA||I installed the AEM Brute Force Intake and it works great. It came with the throttle body spacer for my TJ. It installed easy and I can really tell a difference on hills and such as I am driving down the highway. But if you start with the CAI you might as well spend money on exhaust as well. A better breathing engine is a better running one.|
|06-07-2010 10:19 AM|
Because the computer controls how much fuel to give the motor by using the O2 sensors, blasting the motor with air would only lean it out. The computer would sense this then try to compensate in its stock form settings and richen it up some =less MPG. Because it is fuel injected the computer will only allow so much air and fuel to mix anyway. This means you now have to manipulate the computer to want the extra air flow.
If you decided to do this then you would need that high flow air/fuel mixture to go out of the motor. Now you have to open up the exhaust to let it pass by getting a different exhaust set up. Be careful with opening it up too much because then you may loose H.P.
I built a 1968 Charger with a 413 and opened her up to breath. That worked great. I have an '03 Rubicon and tried to do the same with the Banks and I felt no difference. I took off my stock exhaust and put a 2.5 straight pipe dumped at the pumpkin, lost power and MPG. Then someone told me the facts as to why I had so many troubles. It is all controlled by the computer.
I have to agree with some of the fellas and say save your $$ until your are ready to build the motor from head to toe
|06-07-2010 09:53 AM|
|cntrybmpkn86||The Banks Monster Exhaust is a huge power gainer with the cold air intakes bigger throttle bodies and throttle body spacer. If you put them all on at the same time you will see a huge difference but if you put them on one at a time you will not see much gain but it does help tremendous. I have it all and would not take it off for anything.|
|06-07-2010 09:36 AM|
|n8smitty||I lost about 2 mpg when I lifted my Jeep. I put the Banks CAI on mine a few months ago and I have gotten my 2 mpg back. So to me it was worth it because I get my original mpg. It is a little louder and the throttle response does seem to be better. I like it and to me it was worth the money if I can get an extra round trip to work every tank. It's all a matter of opinion and application. Some like them and some don't. Some think they make a difference (although small) and some want it to give them 30 mpg and 500 hp.|
|06-07-2010 08:20 AM|
I understand that the stock tube and/or intake was built for good breathing, but how cant a CAI system do better? I mean, stock has a box with a little opening. A CAI is all open. I believe the tube on stock is great but the box?
|06-07-2010 01:05 AM|
I have an edge CAI on my jeep and its comming off as soon as i find the time to do it. Mine is coupled with the edge TB but i dont really see a need to remove that yet. Reason why i want to remove my CAI is going through water and puddels is not good for a CAI system. Most time's on your avrage streer ricer there CAI is ran down into the fender where little to no water can get to it. It looks a bit diffrent in the jeep though because its more of a ram air intake than a cold air and my last time off roading it seemed like a lot of water was able to get to it.
Heres some pics of it for you.. Please excuse the dirty engine bay havent been able to clean it since my last off road session
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