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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-27-2010 10:31 PM
TR3YNGLER I understand completely what jwm is saying and I also understand what Jerry is saying. I am of the opinion that you are both right and you are just struggling with the definition of "distortion".

As for the OP's question, I have to ask one of my own because I didn't see a follow-up by him on whether he's driving the front speakers with an amp or just trying to make due with the output of the head unit. What amp are you using for the fronts?
07-27-2010 08:52 PM
jwm1986 Too much clean power will only cause over excursion. And that could well be considered audible distortion. I'm assuming that is what you are talking about, and why you seem so hard pressed to say I am wrong even though that is not what I started out talking about in the first place.

If that is not it, please do explain HOW it is causing distortion in your mind. I would like to figure this out and come to an understanding of what you are saying.
07-27-2010 08:42 PM
Jerry Bransford Well, you better go back to school then if you still think you can't drive a speaker into distortion from too much perfectly clean power.
07-27-2010 08:39 PM
jwm1986 Straight from BCAE.com:

Amplifiers and Speakers:
Many people ask the question... Can my speakers handle this amplifier or will this amplifier blow my speakers. Well, the truth is that any speaker can be driven by any amplifier. The only time that there will be a problem is when the person operating the system becomes abusive. Most people (and I do mean most) drive their amplifiers well into clipping. I know what your thinking... I never drive my amp into clipping. Well, you must be one of the very few. Generally speaking, if you have friends who are impressed by high volume, you drive your system into clipping.

That's all I am saying. I am not hear to argue the fact of how to damage a speaker from too much power. I am only saying what causes distortion.
07-27-2010 08:38 PM
Jma20a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Of course distortion can be caused by too much power. That happens by pushing an amplifier to output more power than it can do cleanly which can drive an amplifier into distortion and clipping. This is some pretty basic stuff, that "too much power can't cause distortion" stuff sounds like strictly a car audio enthusiast rumor. Amps are rated to a certain percentage of distortion at a given power output and any more power than that, its % of distortion rises dramatically.

Driving a speaker with more power than it is rated to handle, even 100% undistorted clean power, will cause it to distort too. Tell me a 100 rms watt amplifier can't cause a speaker only rated to 50 watts to distort and I'll just have to say that is incorrect. That is a simple too much amplifier power for the speaker and it's guaranteed to cause the speaker to begin distorting before it fails if the power is raised up even more than what starts it distorting.

I hate to say this so bluntly but saying "distortion is NEVER caused by too much power" is just plain incorrect. And beyond that, part of what can cause an underpowered amplifier to damage a speaker is because the amp is being asked to put out more power than it can do cleanly without distortion, so the amplifier goes into clipping and starts generating all kinds of problems for the speaker.

This is Basic Amplifier 101 stuff.

thank you
07-27-2010 08:36 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1986 View Post
Too much power has the potential to damage speakers, but is not the sole cause of distortion, it is from a lack of clean signal.
Absolutely incorrect. You can EASILY drive a speaker into distortion from a 100% clean 0% distortion signal that is too much power for the speaker. Try driving a speaker that can handle 50 watts with a 1000 watt amplifier, for an extreme example, and set the amp to put out, say, 200 watts... 1/5 its rated power output. That 200 watts will be clean and distortion free but that 50 watt speaker is going to be distorting like crazy from those 200 watts even though it is getting a perfectly clean non-distorted signal from the amplifier.

I've been in the electronics industry for 45 years and I am specifically in the high-end audio/video industry that does commercial high-end audio systems. Stages, theaters, live outdoor concert venues, stadiums (we did part of the new Dallas Cowboys stadium), auditoriums, anything with speakers and amplifiers. I have made my living doing this stuff for 45 years and to claim that you can't cause distortion from too much power, even when clean/distortion free, being fed to the speaker is just plain wrong.
07-27-2010 08:26 PM
jwm1986 Mmk Jerry. Your second paragraph only restated what I said anyhow. You are taking this too far tho. Too much power has the potential to damage speakers, but is not the sole cause of distortion, it is from a lack of clean signal. You can drive a speaker from a high power amp and a clean source all day long and play fine. But the second you turn it up all that happens is you will smoke the voice coil and it siezes. Don't take my words out of context like that.
07-27-2010 08:26 PM
BLACKTOOTHGRIN
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricVolvo View Post
Been round car audio for almost 25 years and Ive seen lots of blown speakers. In almost every case it isnt power that blows the speaker but disortion. By turning up your deck/amp/gain beyonds its ability to reproduce actual music you voice coils can go let go.
That being said....the location in the dashes of TJ's are horrible for speakers, they point below your hearing level, also 4 x 6 speakers as a whole just arent all that great. The best improvement I could recommend is quality speakers elsewhere....Love my pods.
Im running 2 sets of Polk Db series co-axes wiff a 45 x 2 alpine amp and love the sound. Oh ya and a 10 Rseries alpine sub wiff a 250 x 1. Im sure lots of other speakers would sound as good but keep their location in mind.



Hey Electric,
Are you running SkyPods by any chance?
I really like the placement of those things,
and I've been trying to find someone that has a set
just for some feedback on them.
I'm pretty sure you can buy them hollow or pre-loaded.
So...if I ever bought a set, I'd use my Kappa's in them of course.
I'd still like to talk with someone who has a set first though.
07-27-2010 08:21 PM
Jerry Bransford Of course distortion can be caused by too much power. That happens by pushing an amplifier to output more power than it can do cleanly which can drive an amplifier into distortion and clipping. This is some pretty basic stuff, that "too much power can't cause distortion" stuff sounds like strictly a car audio enthusiast rumor. Amps are rated to a certain percentage of distortion at a given power output and any more power than that, its % of distortion rises dramatically.

Driving a speaker with more power than it is rated to handle, even 100% undistorted clean power, will cause it to distort too. Tell me a 100 rms watt amplifier can't cause a speaker only rated to 50 watts to distort and I'll just have to say that is incorrect. That is a simple too much amplifier power for the speaker and it's guaranteed to cause the speaker to begin distorting before it fails if the power is raised up even more than what starts it distorting.

I hate to say this so bluntly but saying "distortion is NEVER caused by too much power" is just plain incorrect. And beyond that, part of what can cause an underpowered amplifier to damage a speaker is because the amp is being asked to put out more power than it can do cleanly without distortion, so the amplifier goes into clipping and starts generating all kinds of problems for the speaker.

This is Basic Amplifier 101 stuff.
07-27-2010 08:12 PM
jwm1986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jma20a View Post
distortion is caused by over powering them, and the gain has nothing to do with "reproducing actual music". the gain is not the same as a volume control on your deck. distortion is more of a warning that your speaker is over powered and about to blow.

the "actual music" is produced by the frequency you set your amp to and frequency it can produce.
I really shouldn't throw this out in the middle of the thread but it's just wrong. Distortion is NEVER caused by too much power. It is caused by a bad signal, aka clipping. In other words having a lot of signal like turning your deck up trying to get something out of it but there just ISN"T ENOUGH POWER. If you're careful and know what you're doing you can run something such as a 100w speaker from a 1000w amplifier.
07-27-2010 07:50 PM
jcf One simple thing also, if you are using your "loud" setting it is only supposed to be used for low volume. A lot of people tend to use the Loud & the bass way up as well, with the volume pumped way up. Won't be long & speakers go Kapooey
07-27-2010 07:43 PM
BLACKTOOTHGRIN You definitely need to match your HU, Speakers, and Amps up better.
Crutchfield advisers can be helpful with this...but dedicated Audio Shops are more knowledgeable.
(Make sure to talk with a supervisor that's been in it for a decade or two,
rather than the first sales guy that approaches you.)

As far as speakers go...
I personally like the Infinity Kappas for their high end, as stated above,
but the best thing to do is just go in and listen for yourself.
Everyone has a different ear.
07-27-2010 07:40 PM
Jma20a
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricVolvo View Post
In almost every case it isnt power that blows the speaker but disortion. By turning up your deck/amp/gain beyonds its ability to reproduce actual music you voice coils can go let go.
distortion is caused by over powering them, and the gain has nothing to do with "reproducing actual music". the gain is not the same as a volume control on your deck. distortion is more of a warning that your speaker is over powered and about to blow.

the "actual music" is produced by the frequency you set your amp to and frequency it can produce.
07-27-2010 06:26 PM
ElectricVolvo Been round car audio for almost 25 years and Ive seen lots of blown speakers. In almost every case it isnt power that blows the speaker but disortion. By turning up your deck/amp/gain beyonds its ability to reproduce actual music you voice coils can go let go.
That being said....the location in the dashes of TJ's are horrible for speakers, they point below your hearing level, also 4 x 6 speakers as a whole just arent all that great. The best improvement I could recommend is quality speakers elsewhere....Love my pods.
Im running 2 sets of Polk Db series co-axes wiff a 45 x 2 alpine amp and love the sound. Oh ya and a 10 Rseries alpine sub wiff a 250 x 1. Im sure lots of other speakers would sound as good but keep their location in mind.
07-27-2010 03:50 PM
Jp90Talon Ive been pretty lucky with mid level Alpines in the past. If running an aftermarket sub/subs it never hurts to hook up a set of bass blckers on your mids and highs
07-27-2010 03:32 PM
Jma20a plane and simple kicker only makes good subs(mid to high range). your best off looking at speakers on crutchfield. find a set of speakers that are out of your price range and than go on ebay and get them for a cheaper price.

for a fairly priced set of speakers take a look at the infinity kappa speakers(not the reference). they don't put out much bass, thats what subs are for, let the sub provide the bass. they do this so that you can crank up the volume higher with less distortion.
07-27-2010 03:26 PM
Yagermeister
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1986 View Post
To ad to Jerrys comment::

Most of our customers that came in with blown speakers were people running NOT ENOUGH POWER and trying to turn the BASS UP TO HIGH. Not pointing fingers but keep that in mind, if you have subs especially your bass setting to the rest of the speakers should be zero'd if not less than zero.

This.

I assume you're driving the front speakers off your Kenwood receiver? Likely you're cranking the volume and that receiver just can't keep up with the volume from your externally-amped subwoofer so it's distorting and blowing your speakers. You can put the highest rated speakers you can buy in there and they'll probably still blow because they aren't getting good, clean power.

The real solution would be to buy a good set of speakers up front and a 2 channel amp to power them. Something like 2x75w @ 4Ohms RMS or better.

Also, you could check in your manual and see if your receiver has a built-in high-pass crossover. If so, set it to around 50-80Hz. This will keep the bass frequencies from getting to your front speakers and possibly keep them from distorting so bad.
07-27-2010 03:01 PM
jwm1986 To ad to Jerrys comment::

Most of our customers that came in with blown speakers were people running NOT ENOUGH POWER and trying to turn the BASS UP TO HIGH. Not pointing fingers but keep that in mind, if you have subs especially your bass setting to the rest of the speakers should be zero'd if not less than zero.

07-27-2010 02:36 PM
HeaveToo Jerry has an excellent point.

How loud are you running your system? If it isn't so loud do you have a short? Check your speaker wires etc.
07-27-2010 02:32 PM
Jerry Bransford Two questions... 1) how many watts are the speakers being driven with and 2) if the speakers are being blown from too much power, what do you think is happening to your ears? Can you say 'tinnitus' boys and girls? I have a milder case of tinnitus and it isn't fun.
07-27-2010 02:29 PM
530ktm If you have the same stock speakers as I do they are junk as well. Do a search as this topic has threads regarding what speakers are good.
07-27-2010 02:24 PM
777onster
Good Speakers

So i am constantly blowing speakers for the front of my wrangler, i have a sub and amp in the back. I bought kickers from quadratc and they lasted maybe a month or two so ended up having to put he factory speakers back in. Any brands that can handle power?

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