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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-28-2012 10:08 PM
daseffekt
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHrubicon View Post
Especially on long downhills, when everyone in front of you is just crawling, dropping to low and 1st gear means you aren't replacing your brakes every year. And no one I know yet has done any damage to anything (axles, bearings, drivetrain) by driving this way...
Roland
Replacing your brakes every year is much cheaper than replacing your transmission every few years!
09-18-2010 03:09 PM
zaitcev My main problem, if I ever get into N by accident, it's a hell on a stick to engage either 4L or 4H. In such cases, most of the time I had to engage halfway and hold it there by right hand, so that the jeep can be backed to a more level surface where I can rock it and get normal engagement.
09-17-2010 03:56 PM
JIMBOX The JK Rubi NV241 )OR Rock-Trac 4/1 gear ratio-has a different cable engagement linkage-setup--

Still uses the "famous" nylon bushing, but in a different engagement plane-I don't have any problems !!

JIMBO
09-17-2010 03:48 PM
Croakus This discussion got me searching ... we've got variations on the NP231 transfer case in our JK's (the 241OR is a NP231 with different gears). I've found some discussions about putting a NP242 transfer case in a Wrangler, but nobody who's actually done it.

Although the two look similar in pictures, I'm betting there's a lot of electrical / computer issues to deal with. Plus, the output flanges might be different.

I've also read that the 242 is weaker ... I would assume this is because it's basically a 231 shell with more moving parts crammed inside (like the open differential for example). However, they've used 242's in Dodge trucks behind big diesel engines so it can't be that weak can it?
09-17-2010 03:31 PM
zaitcev I would really appreciate if someone posted good pointers (URLs or phone numbers) for companies that sell and/or install full-time replacements for my 241OR. Honestly the shifting on mine is horrendous even without anxiety of the plastic bushing breaking. I drove a 1975 GAZ-69 that shifted better than that. And I just know that a visit to the official service center will elicit "they all are like that". Might as well replace that unit with something decent, if it exists.
09-17-2010 02:59 PM
Croakus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncossey View Post
My disco II had 170,000 miles on it and still shifted like it was brand new. You could hammer the gas and still couldn't feel any rough shifts. The secondary components on land rovers are what is junk. Like the abs module that is shared with h2's, complete crap. The 4.0 engine, transfer case, and transmission are far from garbage.
I couldn't agree more. I had a 2001 Discovery and the drive train in that truck was bullet proof. I put a shifter from a D1 in it to enable the CDL and it turned into a billy goat. Only time I managed to damage it was when I let my ego and my right foot get away from me on a rocky hill climb and detonated that CV joint. That was driver error - not the truck.

Of course it had some electrical problems that nobody could figure out ... I didn't have the time or interest to keep it running anymore so I sold it. It's in the hands of an enthusiast now ... he can spend his weekends bonding with his son while they track down the gremlin in the wires ...

I'm going to spend my weekend cruising in my new JK with the doors and the top off and the sun on my face .
09-17-2010 02:04 PM
JIMBOX Well, you may be right about the LR, never had one, but


Quote:
Originally Posted by ncossey View Post
I am gonna have to disagree bro. I have owned a land rover discovery, and that transmission was not weak by any means. Land rovers are crap now because they have lost their way in terms of what the vehicle was designed for, and rich british smucks wanting more comfort than off road prowess. The full time 4wd system has many benefits, including the fact that you can spend more time navigating terrain, and less time worrying about when to shift between 4hi and 2wd.
I'm afraid the only person who would "Worry about 4hi/4lo" would have to be a librarian, who's never had a 4x4 !!

When I'm off-road, I worry about "Whacking" my CB antenna-never about the T-CASE !!

JIMBO
09-17-2010 01:57 PM
ncossey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croakus View Post
Why do you think I sold my Discovery?

But as for the full time 4wd ... I've never known anyone to blow a T-Case in a Rover. I know I beat the heck out of mine and even after chewing up a C/V joint climbing a tough hill and taking chunks out of the spider gears in my rear diff my T-Case oil looked brand new when I changed it ... no metal shavings at all, and absolutely no change in functionality. That full time 4wd system is definitely one of the things Land Rover got right.

The only reason the Wrangler T-Case is still a part time system is ... that was the original military specification in WW2. Somebody in the military added something along the lines of, "with a way to disengage the front drive shaft as needed" and seventy years later we're driving around with a part time T-Case.

I'm not saying it's a bad design ... on the contrary - part-time has many merits. But full-time 4wd does too, and is not weaker.
My disco II had 170,000 miles on it and still shifted like it was brand new. You could hammer the gas and still couldn't feel any rough shifts. The secondary components on land rovers are what is junk. Like the abs module that is shared with h2's, complete crap. The 4.0 engine, transfer case, and transmission are far from garbage.
09-17-2010 01:54 PM
ncossey
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
A full time system is a much weaker system and would never handle what the Jeep is designed to tackle. Save that for the IFS SUV's
I am gonna have to disagree bro. I have owned a land rover discovery, and that transmission was not weak by any means. Land rovers are crap now because they have lost their way in terms of what the vehicle was designed for, and rich british smucks wanting more comfort than off road prowess. The full time 4wd system has many benefits, including the fact that you can spend more time navigating terrain, and less time worrying about when to shift between 4hi and 2wd.
09-17-2010 01:35 PM
Croakus
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
I never said anything about a TC. The weak link is the center differential that equalizes the front and rear wheel speeds. taking chunks out of the spider gears in my rear diff THAT's what I'm talking about.
The center differential is inside the transfer case in a full time system ...

And yea, we had a pretty hard core day that day. I got a lot more disciplined with the skinny pedal after blowing a $400 axle assembly though and a lot more liberal with the winch!
09-17-2010 11:25 AM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croakus View Post
Why do you think I sold my Discovery?

But as for the full time 4wd ... I've never known anyone to blow a T-Case in a Rover. I know I beat the heck out of mine and even after chewing up a C/V joint climbing a tough hill and taking chunks out of the spider gears in my rear diff my T-Case oil looked brand new when I changed it ... no metal shavings at all, and absolutely no change in functionality. That full time 4wd system is definitely one of the things Land Rover got right.

The only reason the Wrangler T-Case is still a part time system is ... that was the original military specification in WW2. Somebody in the military added something along the lines of, "with a way to disengage the front drive shaft as needed" and seventy years later we're driving around with a part time T-Case.

I'm not saying it's a bad design ... on the contrary - part-time has many merits. But full-time 4wd does too, and is not weaker.
I never said anything about a TC. The weak link is the center differential that equalizes the front and rear wheel speeds. taking chunks out of the spider gears in my rear diff THAT's what I'm talking about.
09-17-2010 11:01 AM
Croakus
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
How many? Anyone I ever knew who owned a LR spent more time in the shop than on the road.
Why do you think I sold my Discovery?

But as for the full time 4wd ... I've never known anyone to blow a T-Case in a Rover. I know I beat the heck out of mine and even after chewing up a C/V joint climbing a tough hill and taking chunks out of the spider gears in my rear diff my T-Case oil looked brand new when I changed it ... no metal shavings at all, and absolutely no change in functionality. That full time 4wd system is definitely one of the things Land Rover got right.

The only reason the Wrangler T-Case is still a part time system is ... that was the original military specification in WW2. Somebody in the military added something along the lines of, "with a way to disengage the front drive shaft as needed" and seventy years later we're driving around with a part time T-Case.

I'm not saying it's a bad design ... on the contrary - part-time has many merits. But full-time 4wd does too, and is not weaker.
09-17-2010 09:19 AM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croakus View Post
Hundreds of thousands of Land Rovers prove you wrong.
How many? Anyone I ever knew who owned a LR spent more time in the shop than on the road.
09-17-2010 08:55 AM
Croakus
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
It was extremely weak and not very well liked. It only lasted a few years. It was the forerunner of the current full time systems, but was very different.
Looks like it was used from 1973 through 1979, but various versions of the design have continued until today. The Jeep Web site lists the current version as the Quadra-Trac 2. After further reading, it looks like it also implements a chain in addition to a differential ... can't find a schematic though so I have no idea how.

Anyway ... that particular system might have been weak but your blanket statement that any full-time 4wd system is weak just doesn't hold up to reality. Hundreds of thousands of Land Rovers prove you wrong.

I would really like to see a full time system offered in the Wrangler. At the same time, we do get better gas mileage with the part-time system (even if the front drive shaft still spins) without sacrificing off-road performance.
09-17-2010 03:51 AM
Hilldweller The South African video was pretty good; it looks like the wet surface that he used at the end wasn't paved with anything you'd find in the States (if it was paved at all). Everything he said reinforced what I said earlier; use 4WD as soon as you get "offroad", both for safety and to keep the trails from getting torn up.
That's what it boils down to.
That, and don't spin your tires. If your tires are spinning, you're doing something wrong and should reassess your tactic. Could be the wrong gear, in 4-low when you should be in 4-high, didn't air-down, etc.

I was able to spend about 9 hours with Bruce and Dave from Overland Experts in two classes back in April at Overland Expo 2010.
Here's some footage from the Expo:
YouTube - Overland Expo 2010: A walk with Dave

Here's some footage of Bruce:
YouTube - OEX CEO Bruce Elfstrom on 4x4 driving training

Trust me. If you have a JK, don't use 4wd on pavement unless it's covered with snow and/or ice. And even then there are "yes" and "no" areas for its use.
09-17-2010 01:42 AM
FlyinJeeps
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfwislander View Post
Well crap, here we go again. More confusion, lol! So this expert suggests putting it in 4wd on any "potentially" slippery surface "just in case you need it" and actually addresses the wear to the 4wd system as "so negligible" it's not worth worrying about. Then he demos the difference between 2wd and 4wd on wet pavement, basically what some people have been arguing about whether to do in rain or not. I give up! LOL
I think what he's saying is, if it's bad enough you're scared to drive over 90km/h due to conditions, it's safe (and a good idea) to use 4wheel drive..if it's raining lightly and you're going 120+km/h then use 2wheel.

edit: to be honest, I'm just a noob and looking for information, I thought the video's showing the traction gain were useful information though.
09-16-2010 11:42 PM
dfwislander
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyinJeeps View Post
This video shows good 2wd vs 4wd on various surfaces and talks about damage vs safety:

YouTube - 4x4 Driving Techniques - True 4WD
Well crap, here we go again. More confusion, lol! So this expert suggests putting it in 4wd on any "potentially" slippery surface "just in case you need it" and actually addresses the wear to the 4wd system as "so negligible" it's not worth worrying about. Then he demos the difference between 2wd and 4wd on wet pavement, basically what some people have been arguing about whether to do in rain or not. I give up! LOL
09-16-2010 11:02 PM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croakus View Post
That certainly wasn't my experience in my Land Rover ... and what about the Quadra-Trac system in the old Jeeps - it used a differential and I never heard anyone say it was weak.
It was extremely weak and not very well liked. It only lasted a few years. It was the forerunner of the current full time systems, but was very different.
09-16-2010 10:53 PM
FlyinJeeps This video shows good 2wd vs 4wd on various surfaces and talks about damage vs safety:

YouTube - 4x4 Driving Techniques - True 4WD
09-16-2010 11:50 AM
Croakus
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
A full time system is a much weaker system and would never handle what the Jeep is designed to tackle. Save that for the IFS SUV's
That certainly wasn't my experience in my Land Rover ... and what about the Quadra-Trac system in the old Jeeps - it used a differential and I never heard anyone say it was weak. Is the current Quadra-Drive 2 or Quadra-Trac 2 weak?

Seems like a chain drive (like the one in our Wranglers) would be a lot weaker than a differential ... but I'm not an engineer.
09-16-2010 11:44 AM
Croakus
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaitcev View Post
Reading all the spirited discussion, it becomes obvious to me that a jeep needs a modern transfer case with a differential (lockable, obviously), and voila, keep the 4hi on all the time and no driveline binding ever. 2wd is a joke anyway without selectable hubs: your front diff and front driveshaft work all the time. Might as well give them something to do.

I'm wondering if aftermarket has such a transfer case.

-- Pete
You mean like every Land Rover ever made? I like my JKU a lot, but if they still sold the Defender in the U.S. that's what I'd be driving.
09-16-2010 09:25 AM
JIMBOX Heh Heh, as soon as I get "Off-Road", I put the JKU in 4Hi-(ESP sw-off)-doesn't matter if its just a dirt road--

If I see a good hill/rocks/shale ahead, I goto 4lo as a precaution!!

Ain't these JK's great ??

JIMBO
09-16-2010 09:04 AM
Lwolf25 Yeah I only use 4wd in general for offroad I'm always in 2 wheel and I even try some trails or mud pits in 2 wheel to make it a little more of a challenge haha and then use 4 high to get unstuck when 2 wheel fails but when offloading I'm mostly alternating between 2 and 4 high only use 4 low if I know for sure that I'm gonna need it by looking at the obstacle
09-16-2010 06:07 AM
daggo66 A full time system is a much weaker system and would never handle what the Jeep is designed to tackle. Save that for the IFS SUV's
09-16-2010 01:39 AM
zaitcev Reading all the spirited discussion, it becomes obvious to me that a jeep needs a modern transfer case with a differential (lockable, obviously), and voila, keep the 4hi on all the time and no driveline binding ever. 2wd is a joke anyway without selectable hubs: your front diff and front driveshaft work all the time. Might as well give them something to do.

I'm wondering if aftermarket has such a transfer case.

-- Pete

BTW: http://www.jeep.com/en/4x4/faqs/
09-15-2010 09:29 PM
ArrowheadRay A stick is different than an auto transmission...

When ever you're wheeling your JK with an auto transmission you should always be in 4 low with the "OD off" and also make sure you keep it in "Drive". When in drive this allows the tranny to kick into 3rd gear, which is when the torque converter engages. When the torque converter is engaged your transmission temp will drop a bunch and keep it from over heating. Only keep it in 1st or 2nd gear when you really need to, like when you need to go down hill at a slow rate or need to crawl.

If you're just wheeling on some easy trails like dirt roads or driving on snow covered roads it's cool to just use 4 hi with OD off.

If you wheel on for an extended period of time in 4L or 4H and stay in 1st or 2nd gear only, you run a chance of overheating you transmission and can blow it up.
09-15-2010 08:22 PM
daggo66 You'd be surprised what the women on this forum know about Jeeps and driving off road.
09-15-2010 07:53 PM
dfwislander
Quote:
Originally Posted by harwa004

Whoops--my bad.
And emphasis on the seasoned. I've been wheeling on and off since I been driving, but it has been just reckless fun and I've obviously been doing some really stupid stuff!
09-15-2010 07:21 PM
AirDWN
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobjenkins View Post
I dont see how your wheels are going to be slipping (loss of traction) in 2wd on wet /flooded pavement. Now if youre in a situation like a paved boat ramp , which is wet and youre pulling your boat from the water and youre wheels start to slip thats competely different. If youre driving down main street and theres inches of water on the road youre not going to need 4wd.
Furthermore, if you're hydroplaning, having your part-time four wheel drive engaged is NOT going to save you. If you're hydroplaning your tires are going to SLIDE I don't give a damn whether you have part-time, full-time, all-wheel drive or tank tracks from an A1 M1 Abrams.

Understand something--when a car hydroplanes that means the tires are riding above a film of water/motor oil/road grime etc (pictured below). There is no tire on planet Earth that can dig through a film of water once you're in the act of hydroplaning. There may be some tires out there that can make you less susceptible to hydroplaning but no tire has the ability to 'anchor' itself to the pavement like Spider-man on a skyscraper. Your only real defense against hydroplaning is to take your feet off of the brakes and accelerator, resist the temptation to steer the car and ride it out--hope that your car slows down enough to sink through the film of water and your tires make contact with the pavement again.



As a matter of fact, driving on wider mud/all terrain tires actually increases your chances of hydroplaning. Narrow tires have a better chance of resisting hydroplaning. So go get yourself a 60's Volkwagen Beetle and leave your Jeep at home during the hurricane season.
09-15-2010 06:38 PM
harwa004
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfwislander View Post
Umm, I was being serious and complimentary. I think he has been awesome and is doing the right thing. No idea WTF you thought you read into that. Oh, and I am southern, but gotta start somewhere on the seasoned 4wd-ing.
Whoops--my bad.
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