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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-06-2010 03:53 AM
jdhallissey There are lots of reasons lighter helps you in wheeling. Is there a technical point behind it maybe 3 but everything else is more for piece of mind.
11-06-2010 02:37 AM
Rawkon so far the only benefit is its lighter...... and lighter helps in which way???
11-06-2010 12:05 AM
Bubba68CS
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavediverjc View Post
Hideous. I didn't jump on the MetalCloak bandwagon. There's no way I'd ever put a set of fenders that ugly on my Jeep. If I wanted super high clearance fenders, I would go with the Rokmens or the Genrights.....definitely not the MetalCloaks.
Ah...fair enough.
11-06-2010 12:02 AM
cavediverjc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba68CS View Post
Why?
Hideous. I didn't jump on the MetalCloak bandwagon. There's no way I'd ever put a set of fenders that ugly on my Jeep. If I wanted super high clearance fenders, I would go with the Rokmens or the Genrights.....definitely not the MetalCloaks.
11-06-2010 12:00 AM
Bubba68CS
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavediverjc View Post
Good to know. I like the TnT stuff. You couldn't pay me enough to run a set of MetalCloaks though.
Why?
11-05-2010 11:58 PM
cavediverjc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepzcb09 View Post
MetalCloak makes aluminum tube fenders and i think TntT does aswell
Good to know. I like the TnT stuff. You couldn't pay me enough to run a set of MetalCloaks though.
11-05-2010 11:07 PM
Jeepzcb09
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyJeepMan View Post
I'd love to get the aluminum stuff, these points from both sides make me look at both and really weigh them out. Just for me the price of the aluminum parts are a good amount more, and I'm not sure if its worth it for me. (I have rock quarries and wooded trails here in Indiana.) I wish I was out west! Maybe once I graduate!

Anywho, it seems like if you have the money, and you want your rig done right and being the best it can be and you run some tough trails then go for aluminum but if you wheel occasionally on wooded trails or rock quarrys like me, and have limited money but want the extra protection go for the steel.

I dont see you making a bad decision either way! You are protecting your jeep while Jeepin and thats all that matters!

Keep it wheelin' steel or aluminum. As long as we all get home after we tackle any challenge that comes before us!
Aluminum corner gurads are only $50 more than steel
11-05-2010 11:05 PM
Jeepzcb09
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdhallissey View Post
I like this debate. SO 6061 aluminum is strong nobody doubts that but what happens over time when you rub it on rocks. It makes a divot correct?! So moving on from that that divot now becomes a weak spot since you have now given it a chance to bend there (you have made a crease) Aluminum will bend faster once it has been compromised. I am wanting to go full corner armor. I am going to wait a little while longer to see what happens some more. I do run a tummy tuck from UCF and the thing weighted in at 15 pounds my stocker was around 60. Going that far why has nobody made tube fenders out of aluminum? If it really is that much stronger and lighter then that would be the point right?! Holds up better, last longer. Might cost you more but then it is a trade off correct.
MetalCloak makes aluminum tube fenders and i think TntT does aswell
11-05-2010 10:12 PM
cavediverjc
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdhallissey View Post
I like this debate. SO 6061 aluminum is strong nobody doubts that but what happens over time when you rub it on rocks. It makes a divot correct?! So moving on from that that divot now becomes a weak spot since you have now given it a chance to bend there (you have made a crease) Aluminum will bend faster once it has been compromised. I am wanting to go full corner armor. I am going to wait a little while longer to see what happens some more. I do run a tummy tuck from UCF and the thing weighted in at 15 pounds my stocker was around 60. Going that far why has nobody made tube fenders out of aluminum? If it really is that much stronger and lighter then that would be the point right?! Holds up better, last longer. Might cost you more but then it is a trade off correct.
I hear ya. The Genright G3 tube fenders I installed on my Jeep are some heavy fenders. Couple that with a heavy winch and my BTF bumper with tow hooks and d-rings, and I've lost almost .75" of lift up front. I wish those fenders could be made in aluminum!! Just have to get that .75" of lost lift back with a small spring spacer. No big deal I guess.
11-05-2010 10:00 PM
jdhallissey I like this debate. SO 6061 aluminum is strong nobody doubts that but what happens over time when you rub it on rocks. It makes a divot correct?! So moving on from that that divot now becomes a weak spot since you have now given it a chance to bend there (you have made a crease) Aluminum will bend faster once it has been compromised. I am wanting to go full corner armor. I am going to wait a little while longer to see what happens some more. I do run a tummy tuck from UCF and the thing weighted in at 15 pounds my stocker was around 60. Going that far why has nobody made tube fenders out of aluminum? If it really is that much stronger and lighter then that would be the point right?! Holds up better, last longer. Might cost you more but then it is a trade off correct.
11-05-2010 09:56 PM
IndyJeepMan I'd love to get the aluminum stuff, these points from both sides make me look at both and really weigh them out. Just for me the price of the aluminum parts are a good amount more, and I'm not sure if its worth it for me. (I have rock quarries and wooded trails here in Indiana.) I wish I was out west! Maybe once I graduate!

Anywho, it seems like if you have the money, and you want your rig done right and being the best it can be and you run some tough trails then go for aluminum but if you wheel occasionally on wooded trails or rock quarrys like me, and have limited money but want the extra protection go for the steel.

I dont see you making a bad decision either way! You are protecting your jeep while Jeepin and thats all that matters!

Keep it wheelin' steel or aluminum. As long as we all get home after we tackle any challenge that comes before us!
11-05-2010 09:14 PM
Jeepzcb09 The aluminum corrner armor is 50lbs less than steel
11-05-2010 03:54 PM
rrich Could be just a one time use. But same with metals, once the yield point is reached, it bends without springing back.

I think I have a can of that hard spray foam, I'll cut a couple of sheets and make a sandwich. Then see how it does with a few tons of pressure on it. I'll start a new thread about the results - good or bad. Might be a few days.

My concern would be moisture - if moisture could seep in, it might compromise the metal skins from the inside by corrosion. Closed cell might help prevent that, don't know.

I've seen some things using that principle - like some ice chests, even a "glass" camper made by Ford in the 60's. Two thin weak shells with foam in between them. Almost indestructible.

Some of that foam gets really hard. I had a tenant seal a hole where a pipe went through a 6" brick wall. I had to cut that hole open again - it was so hard it dulled 2 good hole saws!
11-05-2010 03:11 PM
Bubba68CS
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
""""""he runs the toughest trails"""""

He He -- Same ones I do, Johnson Valley is right up the highway from me - about 12 miles. That's real handy for a "spur of the moment" ride which we often did. It was our local "test track."

At least I did - until my feet went bad, making it difficult to walk, much less operate 3 pedals.
That's why I've been getting rid of my stock, no longer doing customer repairs, and selling some of my equipment.

He He - I remember seeing something a few years ago - a flier or advertisement - a very thin aluminum engine skid plate strengthened on the topside with 2" of hard foam! Supposedly the foam stiffened it, and in case it did bend, it cushioned the impact on vital parts. Never saw one in use, but it does leave some food for thought.

How 'bout 2 thin plates spaced apart with hard foam in between them? Same idea as honeycomb aluminum or corrugated cardboard.
Thoughts?

I gotta try making a hunk of it, then testing it in my press.
Sounds like 2" reduced ground clearance

All kidding aside, its a novel idea...done right it could work very well. Just have to make sure it could be manufactured at a competitive cost.

With hard foam though, I'd think it'd be a one time use type of deal...similar to a motorcycle helmet. Once crushed, it'd be ineffective. I could be misinterpreting the concept though.
11-05-2010 02:27 PM
rrich """"""he runs the toughest trails"""""

He He -- Same ones I do, Johnson Valley is right up the highway from me - about 12 miles. That's real handy for a "spur of the moment" ride which we often did. It was our local "test track."

At least I did - until my feet went bad, making it difficult to walk, much less operate 3 pedals.
That's why I've been getting rid of my stock, no longer doing customer repairs, and selling some of my equipment.

He He - I remember seeing something a few years ago - a flier or advertisement - a very thin aluminum engine skid plate strengthened on the topside with 2" of hard foam! Supposedly the foam stiffened it, and in case it did bend, it cushioned the impact on vital parts. Never saw one in use, but it does leave some food for thought.

How 'bout 2 thin plates spaced apart with hard foam in between them? Same idea as honeycomb aluminum or corrugated cardboard.
Thoughts?

I gotta try making a hunk of it, then testing it in my press.
11-05-2010 12:01 PM
Bubba68CS
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Yup, 38 lbs for the same sizes, configurations, and thicknesses.
But to get the same strength it would have to be about 3 times thicker.

3 x 38 lbs = 114 lbs. 110 vs 114 What's the gain or loss?

And - I'm equipped to cut, grind, bend, and weld steel more than aluminum.

And - if I want, annealing, tempering, or hardening things is easier with steel.
Aluminum can be changed too, but it's a more precise and complicated process.

And - who carries an on-board welder that's capable of welding BOTH aluminum and steel? You never know what you or someone else will break.

For me steel is the more logical and better choice - for others it's a matter of preference.

I'm certainly not saying aluminum is bad. I used to own part of Don's Chassis - we specialized in Formula I chassis. They were almost entirely aluminum and carbon fibre. Strength was obtained from the configuration far more than the material.

Aluminum certainly has it's place, steel has it's place.

I'm not an engineer, but I did employ them - I usually had about 30.
You are assuming that thickness is necessary. I have no idea how much thickness is necessary for these tough trails, but if you believe Jerry, he runs the toughest trails and hasn't had any issues with his aluminum parts. Perhaps the steel is complete overkill. Perhaps Jerry, and anyone else running aluminum stuff, has just been lucky. Thats entirely up to you to decide.

You do bring up good points on the ability to work on aluminum...its certainly not the same as steel. Matter of fact, there's a lot about aluminum that makes it a pain to work with
11-05-2010 02:56 AM
rrich Yup, 38 lbs for the same sizes, configurations, and thicknesses.
But to get the same strength it would have to be about 3 times thicker.

3 x 38 lbs = 114 lbs. 110 vs 114 What's the gain or loss?

And - I'm equipped to cut, grind, bend, and weld steel more than aluminum.

And - if I want, annealing, tempering, or hardening things is easier with steel.
Aluminum can be changed too, but it's a more precise and complicated process.

And - who carries an on-board welder that's capable of welding BOTH aluminum and steel? You never know what you or someone else will break.

For me steel is the more logical and better choice - for others it's a matter of preference.

I'm certainly not saying aluminum is bad. I used to own part of Don's Chassis - we specialized in Formula I chassis. They were almost entirely aluminum and carbon fibre. Strength was obtained from the configuration far more than the material.

Aluminum certainly has it's place, steel has it's place.

I'm not an engineer, but I did employ them - I usually had about 30.
11-05-2010 01:58 AM
Rawkon just playing devils advocate cause im bored.

why would a rockcrawler care about weight savings? ive seen crazy heavy rigs go through the hammers just as well as the "lightweight" ones. does goin to light weight armor make any difference? for those with tons of experience and have run both is it just somethin new that looks good and works????
11-05-2010 01:29 AM
DevilDogDoc My Savvy front bumper weighs 17 lbs with hardware and tow hooks, stock weighed 16. Why in the hell would I want a 100 lb bumper? I dont think it would be any stronger than what I run.
11-05-2010 12:57 AM
Bubba68CS
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Interesting - 70 lbs gas tank skid?
80lbs or rocker armor?
70 lbs of corner armor?

I doubt that's even close to realistic.
The mfgrs of that stuff never publish the weights - you have to buy one to see. Look them up!


Mine - steering box plate, LCA plates, full engine/tranny skid plate, extended diff plates that run back under the U-joints for protection, 3 rails alongside the DS to protect the DS, side rock rails, gas tank skid plate, -- all made of steel by me. TOTAL of all the above comes to 110 lbs.
Sorry, no corner plates.
They've been tested on the Hammer trails - those famous trails are right up the street from me - only about 12 miles away. You know I've been there frequently.

"""""Add that to all of the other stuff we cram into them and it is not uncommon to see an extra 500lbs on a Jeep."""""
Is he inferring that if it's made of aluminum, you don't need on-board air, welder, ice chest, jacks, tools etc?

Think about it - what would you say if Jeep announced all their roll cages and safety devices was now made of aluminum? Brakes? Gears? Suspension parts?

Remember - it's not the materiel itself that makes the strength - it's the configuration. Look at paper - inherently weak, but very light. Pound for pound, corrugated cardboard (shaped paper) is stronger than steel.

Buy whatever makes you feel secure. I'll do the same.
I'm a Mech E, so I'm well aware of how to compare strength of materials...and also how to design them for optimized specifications rather than being overkill. I tend to use that knowledge to base my technical decisions on rather than 'feelings'

Anyway, looking at your stuff...first, you have to consider how thick it is in comparison to what Savvy is comparing...they are probably comparing it to the thickest stuff they could find (or an equivalent thickness to their parts)...second, if your stuff were aluminum, it'd be 38 lbs. You could use thicker material and still come in well under the weight of all that steel. And depending on the steel used, it is entirely possible to end up with a stronger part, weighing less by going with 6061 Aluminum. Also, for another example, ARB advertises their bumpers (steel) as weighing 90-100 lbs (easily explaining the 500 lb argument Savvy used). Again, make that out of aluminum and you're looking at less than 40 lbs.

Simply providing an engineering prospective here. Jerry seems to have the real world prospective with this stuff. But from that engineering prospective, aluminum really seems an ideal material for this application...
11-04-2010 10:58 PM
rrich Interesting - 70 lbs gas tank skid?
80lbs or rocker armor?
70 lbs of corner armor?

I doubt that's even close to realistic.
The mfgrs of that stuff never publish the weights - you have to buy one to see. Look them up!


Mine - steering box plate, LCA plates, full engine/tranny skid plate, extended diff plates that run back under the U-joints for protection, 3 rails alongside the DS to protect the DS, side rock rails, gas tank skid plate, -- all made of steel by me. TOTAL of all the above comes to 110 lbs.
Sorry, no corner plates.
They've been tested on the Hammer trails - those famous trails are right up the street from me - only about 12 miles away. You know I've been there frequently.

"""""Add that to all of the other stuff we cram into them and it is not uncommon to see an extra 500lbs on a Jeep."""""
Is he inferring that if it's made of aluminum, you don't need on-board air, welder, ice chest, jacks, tools etc?

Think about it - what would you say if Jeep announced all their roll cages and safety devices was now made of aluminum? Brakes? Gears? Suspension parts?

Remember - it's not the materiel itself that makes the strength - it's the configuration. Look at paper - inherently weak, but very light. Pound for pound, corrugated cardboard (shaped paper) is stronger than steel.

Buy whatever makes you feel secure. I'll do the same.
11-04-2010 08:49 PM
Bubba68CS
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Realistically - what is the weight difference between the steel and aluminum corner guards? 3 lbs? 6 lbs? Will that make a huge difference?" Leave 2 beers at home to compensate.
If the steel part weighs 4.6 lbs or 9.2 lbs...then sure...you're looking at 3-6 lbs difference.

Density of mild steel - 0.284 lb/cubic inch
Density of 6061 Al - 0.098 lb/cubic inch

But, if you're like these guys talking about full length corner armor, gas tank skids, bumpers, rocker protection, etc, etc, etc....you're going to see far more substantial weight savings.

From Savvy's website (obviously a biased source, but still giving you information on why they choose to manufacture with aluminum rather than steel): "Our aluminum products are designed to be as strong as a comparable steel products at less than half the weight. Think of it this way. We put 70 lbs of corner armor, 70 lbs of gas tank skid armor, 80 lbs of rocker armor on our Jeeps. That's at least 220 lbs more than a stock Jeep. Add that to all of the other stuff we cram into them and it is not uncommon to see an extra 500lbs on a Jeep. Factor in the bigger wheels and your Jeep is now a dog and the suspension sags. If the rockers, gas tank skid and corners only weighed a total of 75 lbs you see why we are making things out of aluminum."

And for this application, there's really no disadvantage to aluminum...
11-04-2010 08:01 PM
Cons_Table
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDogDoc View Post
No he's not driving the shop rig. I saw the Savvy LJ while it was being built and it sits on 37's or 38's now. If you don't want lightweight armor so be it go buy the heaviest plates you can and good luck to you!
The pics that jerry put up are of the skid that was on his stolen jeep, not even his new one. Everyone knows the kind of trails the Geezer ran...*cough*johnson valley*cough*
11-04-2010 07:52 PM
rrich Realistically - what is the weight difference between the steel and aluminum corner guards? 3 lbs? 6 lbs? Will that make a huge difference?" Leave 2 beers at home to compensate.

Aluminum is not always the answer for everything - no good for seat cushions. LOL

A good point brought up - seeing corner guards immediately brings to mind hiding already crushed corners or rust. Even if there is no rust when you put them on, you will have it later. Either type will trap and hold water, but the aluminum against the steel body will also have the electrolysis effect, promoting corrosion faster.

The fuel tank skid plate - I like the shiny way it looks. When you run over someone they can see their refection and how badly you hurt them.
11-04-2010 03:39 PM
DevilDogDoc
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
Are you kidding me? It looks like that thing is brand new and hit one or 2 rocks. Its still shiny on 98% of it.

Great Savvy pitch from the guy driving the Savvy shop rig.
No he's not driving the shop rig. I saw the Savvy LJ while it was being built and it sits on 37's or 38's now. If you don't want lightweight armor so be it go buy the heaviest plates you can and good luck to you!
11-04-2010 03:20 PM
Jeepzcb09 jgorm,Dude ive seen some of the sheit jerrys been through........ that was prolly the first 10 min of his 1st trip out in his new rig, and if not maybe that shows how tough it really is. What do you have against savvy? Have you ever talked to their owner, i have he is a jeep/offroad genious
10-27-2010 10:42 AM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
For example, my gas tank skidplate has been hit SO hard SO many times while rock crawling on big sharp rocks, enough that it hurt my teeth, that I can say it's been tested as hard as it is ever likely to be.
Are you kidding me? It looks like that thing is brand new and hit one or 2 rocks. Its still shiny on 98% of it.

Great Savvy pitch from the guy driving the Savvy shop rig.
10-26-2010 08:05 PM
Jeepzcb09 Now thats the kind of answer im lookin for Jerry!! Looks like im gonna get Savvy, Thanks!!
10-26-2010 07:20 PM
Jerry Bransford Saying steel is stronger than aluminum is the "easy" answer given by those looking for the easy way out of such a question. However and with the right grade of aluminum, T-6 6061 as is used by Tuffy, the question is moot since both materials will be more than strong enough for corners, skidplates, etc.. The benefit to T-6 6061 is that it is more than strong enough to resist gouging, denting, etc. while being significantly lighter than steel.

In my particular personal experiences with T-6 6061 aluminum which is shared by all those I know running the same pieces, I've not managed to damage them beyond scratching them. For example, my gas tank skidplate has been hit SO hard SO many times while rock crawling on big sharp rocks, enough that it hurt my teeth, that I can say it's been tested as hard as it is ever likely to be. Scratches? Yes, certainly. Dents or being gouged out? Nope, not at all.
10-26-2010 06:57 PM
Jp90Talon I went with the Rokmen steel stryker corners just because I liked being able to have the welded on stryker tubes for more protection bouncing off trees, attachment point for tie downs, even a place to walk if burried in mud.... and the fact that I live in New England and dont want to risk the chance for a galvanic reaction between aluminum corners and my steel tub down the road.


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