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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-05-2010 06:54 PM
thaduke2003 Nice- let us know how it goes! Mark W.
10-05-2010 11:52 AM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaduke2003 View Post
^ You, sir, through your thorough answer/retort, have earned a bit of my respect And I hate stepper motors They do, indeed, fail often, even in stock form- modding the systems they control causes all kinds of issues, but as long as an aftermarket TB doesn't modify the throttle rotor, they SHOULDN'T have increased problems- Mark W.
haha, thanks. hopefully i'll get my jeep on the dyno again this week and screw around with the tune.
10-05-2010 08:30 AM
thaduke2003 Who's Dave Brown? Mark W.
10-04-2010 08:13 PM
coop42
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaduke2003 View Post
My friend, I have a few comments on that statement. But, first, a disclaimer. For 6 and a half years, I ran a PROFESSIONAL (A.K.A. no fart cans and wings on Accords unless they REALLY needed one) high-performance shop here in NY. I've been in most magazines for racing and street tuning out there, and my cars are regulars at every race track in the Northeast (well, they were as of 2 years ago when I shut down ). To say that I understand speed and power is a given. Therefore, do not get butthurt when I say:
That "aid in throttle response" was 99% your mind WISHING there were an improvement. On a carbeurated engine, carb spacers WORK. A 1" carb spacer left my shop on EVERY carb'ed engine I ever built, if room allowed for it. They make unmistakable differences in power and torque. Dyno measurable, even. However, on a modern, throttle-by-wire (or E-throttle, etc.) FUEL INJECTED vehicle, I have yet to see any noticable gain. Noticable means more than 1-2 WHP, which can be attributed to warming up the engine, changing humidity, temps., etc. They, to me, are snake oil. Pure, and simple.
As for the turbo setup, it USED TO BE not hard to get done. With the E-throttle, even the professional tuning shops that make SUPERCHARGER (I know, obviously the difference, but bear with me) kits are having a beast of a time getting the tuning down. They have their own dyno's, and thousands of man hours behind their kits, and there are still issues. Of the two forms of forced induction (super and turbocharging), turbo is usually (unless you get LUCKY, which you won't with e-throttle and modern ECU setups) much more difficult to tune. Figure you'd need a minimum of 50-100 hours of tuning to make up a decent tune for your homespun turbo kit. Not to mention, the easy part- fabbing it all up.
Sure, if you want to drop $5-15K on tuning, and 1-2K+ on the turbo. But then, why not a Hemi?

Isn't knowledge a bitch? Or is it just me... Mark W.
Spoke to Dave Brown lately?
10-04-2010 08:12 PM
coop42 Spoke to Dave Brown lately?
10-04-2010 08:03 PM
thaduke2003 ^ You, sir, through your thorough answer/retort, have earned a bit of my respect And I hate stepper motors They do, indeed, fail often, even in stock form- modding the systems they control causes all kinds of issues, but as long as an aftermarket TB doesn't modify the throttle rotor, they SHOULDN'T have increased problems- Mark W.
10-04-2010 09:54 AM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaduke2003 View Post
Jgorm, have you ever tuned a stand alone ECU from scratch? For a one-off setup like a custom turbo kit on an engine/trans combo that nobody makes an off-the-shelf tune for? Yeah, 50 hours seems like a lot, but it's realistic for a GOOD street tune. Minimum would be 24 hours, realistically. I'm not talking about something like a Diablo, which has limited capability. I'm talking about an AEM stand-alone ECU, and full custom tuning.

To be honest, I haven't gotten to play with the new Diablo tuner for the JK yet, but I can assure you that it can't even begin to compare with the features a custom ECU bring to the table.

Also, a high-flow throttle body is a waste of money for high boost- they're more important for NA (Naturally Aspirated- in other words, no turbo, nitrous, etc.), as those applications see greater gains from de-restricted air pathways.
As for failure and issues, I don't see how you could make that claim- it's a hunk of metal. I've worked with many over-bored TB's over the years (mostly on Honda/Acura, and Mustang/Camaro applications) and never had one fail- either the homespun kind (had a great guy in central FL who had a 3-day turnaround, including shipping, for $100! Loved him ), or the off-the-shelf kind. Had throttle return springs fail, but those were often stock parts, re-used.

As always, my disclaimer- I'm not personally crapping on you. Just stating what I've seen in my experience- Mark W.
I try to avoid the standalone ecus for street cars. (But I do know that they will take much longer because everything needs to be done from scratch) The factory ecu if very capable if you have the tools to modify it correctly. With the ford stuff, i see no need to go standalone unless you want to spin 8000+ rpms, or run a map based system for some funky intakes that cannot use a maf. They used the factory ecu on "joes GT" that made 1400+ hp.

I am not talking about using the diablo predator with the preloaded tunes, that does not support any sort of "custom" tuning, it just loads a tune with bumped up timing for preimum gas. I have the ability to change the factory code and reprogram any maps that i need to, then use the predator to flash my custom tune.

My comment on larger throttle bodies should have been a little more clear. On PB blower applications the TB is an intake restriction and there can be large gains with bigger TBs. On turbos and centri cars where the TB sees boost, you are correct that the size is pretty much irrelevant. My comment on throttle body failures is for the electronic throttle bodies. I've seen stepper motor problems that resulted with jerky operation.
10-04-2010 06:43 AM
thaduke2003 $420 for both axles is VERY reasonable! I pay about the same at "friend" prices $4200 they'd better be buying you dinner, a movie, drinks, and a nightcap with that screwing Mark W.
10-04-2010 06:43 AM
GREEN-MACHINE
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgeM37 View Post
I hope you meant $420......$4200 you're getting screwed
yeah 1 too many zeros.
10-03-2010 09:02 PM
DodgeM37
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREEN-MACHINE View Post
i too was going to buy a TB spacer and CAI, but decided that removing the rear seat would give me better performance. i also looked into superchargers (turbo's run to hot for off roading + you got to wind them up to make power ) the V8 swap is out of the question. way too much money.
so come spring time i'll regear. my local shop ( 80 miles away. only guy i trust + he only works on jeeps ) said he can do both axles for $ 4200. so thats the way i'll go.
I hope you meant $420......$4200 you're getting screwed
10-03-2010 04:03 PM
thaduke2003 ^Yep. Although I hear rumblings that you now MAY be able to buy a 2nd license for one, but I'm not sure about any of that- Mark W.
10-03-2010 12:50 PM
Jbird450 Mark, did you have to buy two separate tuners for your jeeps? I just bought one yesterday and I used it on my wifes '10 jk and I want to use it on my '10 jk but not sure if I need to buy another one or not.it really did make great improvements
10-03-2010 12:06 PM
thaduke2003 Hans- I'm not a big fan, simply because they are still having to compromise heavily on ECU tuning and using a piggyback setup. They do everything up to 11 at RIPP, and know their stuff, but I'd not spend my own money on it. It's nothing terrible or anything, but I like to do everything just so

Jgorm, have you ever tuned a stand alone ECU from scratch? For a one-off setup like a custom turbo kit on an engine/trans combo that nobody makes an off-the-shelf tune for? Yeah, 50 hours seems like a lot, but it's realistic for a GOOD street tune. Minimum would be 24 hours, realistically. I'm not talking about something like a Diablo, which has limited capability. I'm talking about an AEM stand-alone ECU, and full custom tuning.

To be honest, I haven't gotten to play with the new Diablo tuner for the JK yet, but I can assure you that it can't even begin to compare with the features a custom ECU bring to the table.

Also, a high-flow throttle body is a waste of money for high boost- they're more important for NA (Naturally Aspirated- in other words, no turbo, nitrous, etc.), as those applications see greater gains from de-restricted air pathways.
As for failure and issues, I don't see how you could make that claim- it's a hunk of metal. I've worked with many over-bored TB's over the years (mostly on Honda/Acura, and Mustang/Camaro applications) and never had one fail- either the homespun kind (had a great guy in central FL who had a 3-day turnaround, including shipping, for $100! Loved him ), or the off-the-shelf kind. Had throttle return springs fail, but those were often stock parts, re-used.

As always, my disclaimer- I'm not personally crapping on you. Just stating what I've seen in my experience- Mark W.
10-03-2010 10:06 AM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaduke2003 View Post
My friend, I have a few comments on that statement. But, first, a disclaimer. For 6 and a half years, I ran a PROFESSIONAL (A.K.A. no fart cans and wings on Accords unless they REALLY needed one) high-performance shop here in NY. I've been in most magazines for racing and street tuning out there, and my cars are regulars at every race track in the Northeast (well, they were as of 2 years ago when I shut down ). To say that I understand speed and power is a given. Therefore, do not get butthurt when I say:
That "aid in throttle response" was 99% your mind WISHING there were an improvement. On a carbeurated engine, carb spacers WORK. A 1" carb spacer left my shop on EVERY carb'ed engine I ever built, if room allowed for it. They make unmistakable differences in power and torque. Dyno measurable, even. However, on a modern, throttle-by-wire (or E-throttle, etc.) FUEL INJECTED vehicle, I have yet to see any noticable gain. Noticable means more than 1-2 WHP, which can be attributed to warming up the engine, changing humidity, temps., etc. They, to me, are snake oil. Pure, and simple.
As for the turbo setup, it USED TO BE not hard to get done. With the E-throttle, even the professional tuning shops that make SUPERCHARGER (I know, obviously the difference, but bear with me) kits are having a beast of a time getting the tuning down. They have their own dyno's, and thousands of man hours behind their kits, and there are still issues. Of the two forms of forced induction (super and turbocharging), turbo is usually (unless you get LUCKY, which you won't with e-throttle and modern ECU setups) much more difficult to tune. Figure you'd need a minimum of 50-100 hours of tuning to make up a decent tune for your homespun turbo kit. Not to mention, the easy part- fabbing it all up.
Sure, if you want to drop $5-15K on tuning, and 1-2K+ on the turbo. But then, why not a Hemi?

Isn't knowledge a bitch? Or is it just me... Mark W.
Well said. I also do dyno tuning and can agree that the electronic throttles require a ton more tuning to get everything right. But 50-100 hours? No way. If i spend even 10 hrs tuning a supercharged e-throttle, something would be very wrong, and i'd be kicking myself for not seeing it sooner. The typical time is about 2-5 hrs for a full custom tune on the factory ECU. I just bought in with diablo for the DCX vehicles, mostly for the hemis and SRT stuff, but it comes with jeep support as well. I can't wait to get a peak at the factory code and play around a bit on my jeep.

Throttle body spacers are a 100% waste of money.
Upgraded electronic throttle bodies should only be used when needed (like high boost) because they have a high failure and issue rate when compared to the stock, and show very little gains on near stock vehicles.
10-03-2010 09:39 AM
HansB Mark...are you against supercharging then? I've done a little research and like the results I see. My baby's at RIPP right now and will be getting their Gen 2, intercooler and headers this week.
10-03-2010 09:10 AM
thaduke2003 ^ Yikes. Thanks for the kind words, guys. Now, I'm also hearing more and more about Gibson header flanges cracking on the JK's- it used to be you bought headers to get RID of flange cracking on 4.0L's- WTF?!

Del- I have Superchips in both my wife's and my JK- great interface, good support, and measurable gains in fuel economy. It has literally paid for itself in REAL fuel economy gains alone (measured by filling up [no topping off after it clicks!], and dividing miles driven by gallons pumped- also, I run a program on my Droid called Acar- helps keep track of all your car stuff- fuel economy/expenditures, repairs, and scheduled maintenance- great program! Free plug! )- Mark W.
10-03-2010 07:08 AM
GREEN-MACHINE i too have read many of mark's post, and he is very knowable. i have done the hot rod/ motorcycle thing over many years and find the newer vehicles very hard to work on ( expechally when it comes to wanting more power ) read my post LATER to day about my wiring night mare / i'll title it never again.)
10-03-2010 06:36 AM
jcf I have a lot of respect for Mark, he is to the point & doesn't "beat around the bush" he also takes his precious time to answer our questions & help with problems. Some people just take honesty the wrong way, I for one thank him for saving us money & preventing us from making uneducated mistakes. Good on ya' Mark, you are a big big help
10-03-2010 06:16 AM
GREEN-MACHINE i too was going to buy a TB spacer and CAI, but decided that removing the rear seat would give me better performance. i also looked into superchargers (turbo's run to hot for off roading + you got to wind them up to make power ) the V8 swap is out of the question. way too much money.
so come spring time i'll regear. my local shop ( 80 miles away. only guy i trust + he only works on jeeps ) said he can do both axles for $ 4200. so thats the way i'll go.
10-02-2010 11:23 PM
Ski I have an 05 Wrangler Unlimited Sport with the 4.0L Inline 6 and i had an AeroTurbine exhaust that goes from the headers back, plus they installed 3 inch piping the whole way...that also helped out alot, so i got it installed on my jeep and it is awesome, its also 50 states leagal. i was going to get 40 series flo's on it but my mechanic suggested the AeroTurbine and holy s*** it sounds great, best $500 i ever spent. It is loud and has a balsy rumble to it just idling. Sounds the best starting up especially when its cold, its loud as hell. when i get back from afghanistan im going to install Borla headers on him.
10-02-2010 11:01 PM
DelRocini Mark, thank you for saving me alot of money. I have been apprehensive of all performance upgrades except exhaust and CAI. "air in air out". What chip do you recommend? 2008-JKU
10-02-2010 10:44 PM
Ski
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangersLTW View Post
Just added a throttle body space, superchip and Airraid cold air intake...I bought a magnaflo exhaust and gibson headers but returned them due to to many comments on the internet. Has anyone had this upgrade, yet. I am looking for more power and thoarty sound. The best two exhaust I have read about were Banks and Magnaflo...the only header I have read good reviews on were the Gibson, so far.
I have an 05 Wrangler Unlimited Sport with the 4.0L Inline 6 and i had an AeroTurbine exhaust that goes from the headers back, installed on my jeep and it is awesome, its also 50 states leagal. i was going to get 40 series flo's on it but my mechanic suggested the AeroTurbine and holy s*** it sounds great, best $500 i ever spent. It is loud and has a balsy rumble to it just idling. Sounds the best starting up especially when its cold, its loud as hell. when i get back from afghanistan im going to install Borla headers on him.
07-12-2010 04:04 PM
KBR97
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangersLTW View Post

That it is...so is being a asshole on a open forum...Your comment was fine but that above wasn't called for...Now I have called a few places that are working on a turbokit for the Jeep but I am going to place my comments on another forum...thanks
What wasnt called for?...Mark, who is obviously very knowledgeable in mechanics and performance of vehicles just sat down and took his time to politely school you on a certain subject you were asking about. He went into detail and wrote you a long paragraph about how and why something does what it does.
So he had a smart sarcastic egocentric remark at the end...it is what it is...fun, joking..horsing around. Thats why he.. To show he wasnt being a douche.

Like he said go ask about a throttle body spacer over at JKO, Pirate, or even JK forum....Ill be tuning in...
07-12-2010 03:52 PM
thaduke2003 No problem, amigo That's why I used to charge for advice if you came to my shop- if I put my name on it, it's my professional opinion. Not fact, mind you, but my opinion- always open to change and input Mark W.
07-12-2010 01:59 PM
yjkid95 Glad to say I agree with Mark W. personally I believe he was being honest not a asshole as you would say. And he is also right about the turbo and supercharger. I was thinking of doing a 2.5 build with a turbo on my yj but decided itd be a waste of time effort and money because i could get the same amount of power out of a 350 for less money and the 350 also would have a lot more potential to make more power. Mark W. thank you for your honesty.
07-12-2010 12:49 PM
thaduke2003 Hah- indeed. Best of luck on Pirate, JK-F or JKO I was being nice, and realistic- when somebody triples their bill and sticks you with it, enjoy
Some folks just need better naughty time... Mark W.
07-12-2010 09:22 AM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangersLTW View Post

That it is...so is being a asshole on a open forum...Your comment was fine but that above wasn't called for...Now I have called a few places that are working on a turbokit for the Jeep but I am going to place my comments on another forum...thanks
Let us know how that works out for you. This is the friendly one.
07-12-2010 09:05 AM
RangersLTW Isn't knowledge a bitch? Or is it just me... Mark W.[/QUOTE]

That it is...so is being a asshole on a open forum...Your comment was fine but that above wasn't called for...Now I have called a few places that are working on a turbokit for the Jeep but I am going to place my comments on another forum...thanks
07-10-2010 05:14 PM
thaduke2003 My friend, I have a few comments on that statement. But, first, a disclaimer. For 6 and a half years, I ran a PROFESSIONAL (A.K.A. no fart cans and wings on Accords unless they REALLY needed one) high-performance shop here in NY. I've been in most magazines for racing and street tuning out there, and my cars are regulars at every race track in the Northeast (well, they were as of 2 years ago when I shut down ). To say that I understand speed and power is a given. Therefore, do not get butthurt when I say:
That "aid in throttle response" was 99% your mind WISHING there were an improvement. On a carbeurated engine, carb spacers WORK. A 1" carb spacer left my shop on EVERY carb'ed engine I ever built, if room allowed for it. They make unmistakable differences in power and torque. Dyno measurable, even. However, on a modern, throttle-by-wire (or E-throttle, etc.) FUEL INJECTED vehicle, I have yet to see any noticable gain. Noticable means more than 1-2 WHP, which can be attributed to warming up the engine, changing humidity, temps., etc. They, to me, are snake oil. Pure, and simple.
As for the turbo setup, it USED TO BE not hard to get done. With the E-throttle, even the professional tuning shops that make SUPERCHARGER (I know, obviously the difference, but bear with me) kits are having a beast of a time getting the tuning down. They have their own dyno's, and thousands of man hours behind their kits, and there are still issues. Of the two forms of forced induction (super and turbocharging), turbo is usually (unless you get LUCKY, which you won't with e-throttle and modern ECU setups) much more difficult to tune. Figure you'd need a minimum of 50-100 hours of tuning to make up a decent tune for your homespun turbo kit. Not to mention, the easy part- fabbing it all up.
Sure, if you want to drop $5-15K on tuning, and 1-2K+ on the turbo. But then, why not a Hemi?

Isn't knowledge a bitch? Or is it just me... Mark W.
07-10-2010 03:46 PM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangersLTW View Post
I have throttle body before on other vehicles...not much gain in power but does aid in throttle response.

Exactly how does that occur?
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