Jeep Wrangler Forum - Reply to Topic
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > TJ Jeep Wrangler Forum > TJ Tech Forum > ECM Unplug for Welding????

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Thread: ECM Unplug for Welding???? Reply to Thread
Title:
  
Message:
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
10-20-2010 10:57 PM
rrich An old Hammurland - haven't seen one in years. I had one, don't remember which one, 2 tuning dials and a BFO, loved it till the smoke fell out!
I used a Drake 2b - and a home brew CW transmitter. You had to be technical in those days, as opposed to just paying a fee now.

I was going to get my EE degree - specializing in antennas - til I realized that wasn't for me. I ended up buying and selling businesses (17,) houses, apartments, and shopping malls. Much more fun and far more profitable.
10-20-2010 09:34 PM
bobsalmon Thanks guys and melissas6570 also. I'll start my own post and would like to continue this EMI discussion. I didn't mean to take over on Dewry's post.
Sparky; I fly out of northeast PHL, I know the building.
RRich; I just bought an old Hammurland HQ-110 tonite. 73, N3JQD.
10-20-2010 11:47 AM
rrich Well I guess that proves it - another "I know someone."
10-20-2010 10:23 AM
sparky Bob,

How is your coax routed. Is it in the tub or underneath.

Come visit us next week. Holmesburg Amateur Radio Club.
10-20-2010 10:05 AM
Gate53 I have no ed in the matter but I have found that using plastic coated 1/4 dog cable to do my grounding for my CB and radio works well.
10-20-2010 09:58 AM
Ibuildembig
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsalmon View Post
Jerry B. is right, just weld the thing. The PCM will be fine.

Mellissas6570, interesting background. I believe that if any AC currents are flowing due to EMF or low freq. RF, it would be better for the PCM to be grounded/connected in order to return such current to ground. As opposed to the PCM floating without a ground. I'm a radio amateur, N3JQD, and Xmit high power RF from my Wrangler, typically anywhere from 3.8Mhz to 7.29 Mhz at up to 500W. My only problem is the darn fuel pump noise be received by the Xcvr. My entire frame and body are grounded everywhere using braided flat cable. The hood, the frame, the exhaust is even grounded thus all metal is bonded to ground and creating a suitable groundplane for Xmit. So, anyway to attenuate the fuel pump noise or eliminate it? Sorry, to hijack your post Dewry.
Just an FYI, I would be willing to bet your fuel pump noise is comming in on your braided ground cable. We have found that at our tower sites that the braided cable acts like an antenna receiver....replace it with good shielded stranded cable and I bet it will quit.
10-20-2010 09:05 AM
Melissas6570
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsalmon View Post
Jerry B. is right, just weld the thing. The PCM will be fine.

Mellissas6570, interesting background. I believe that if any AC currents are flowing due to EMF or low freq. RF, it would be better for the PCM to be grounded/connected in order to return such current to ground. As opposed to the PCM floating without a ground. I'm a radio amateur, N3JQD, and Xmit high power RF from my Wrangler, typically anywhere from 3.8Mhz to 7.29 Mhz at up to 500W. My only problem is the darn fuel pump noise be received by the Xcvr. My entire frame and body are grounded everywhere using braided flat cable. The hood, the frame, the exhaust is even grounded thus all metal is bonded to ground and creating a suitable groundplane for Xmit. So, anyway to attenuate the fuel pump noise or eliminate it? Sorry, to hijack your post Dewry.
Well grounding is good, but with everything grounded like you have it I would look for ground loops or take a mili-ohm meter and check the bonding resistance of your grounds. That would be a very hard job to do but if you have the time you can try it. Also look at the antenna cable and make sure it is good. I am not sure what your cable looks like but if it is just a coax try connecting a different cable from the antenna to the radio. Just go from the antenna to the radio, loose and not routed. You could also look at the routing of your antenna cable. Is it running down the side or bundled with the fuel pump wiring? You can also try adding a ferrite to the power leads of the fuel pump. It would be best if you could get a couple of turns through the ferrite but you may not have enough slack for that. Take a look at the following standards for some ideas. MIL-STD-188-124B, MIL-STD-1857, and MIL-HDBK-419. They will put you to sleep but they can provide some very good info. You can get all the standards for free at everyspec.com
10-19-2010 11:00 PM
dorramide7
Quote:
Originally Posted by burton160w View Post
You're also talking AC when your discussing computers. But just to disprove some of your "Bin Laden plots"


And yes, with a pacemaker it's not that you can't weld - it's that certain precautions must be taken because you're correct, EMI can disrupt pacemaker use. But it isn't explicitly forbidden.

Why do hospitals and airlines not allow you to talk on your cell phone? Because it's friggen annoying! How do doctors communicate? Via pagers using same frequencies. Why can you use your cell phone on private charter flights or jets?
And just as an aside, I weld on my TJ all the time and the guys I enjoy hanging/wheeling with like mrblaine and others weld on their Jeeps all the time too... and none of us have swallowed the rumors that you need to disconnect the battery or ECM/PCM. We don't disconnect anything, we just do the Welding 101 basic of connecting the ground clip next to what we are welding. No problems with anything, ever, and that's no rumor.
10-19-2010 10:48 PM
pyrobling Unfortunately this is a Google-ing match. The point of this was to answer his question whether it was safe or not. The answer simply yes he is safe. The history lesson is nice and yes bsck in the day that would affect his electronics, but since we have ADVANCED technology past 1963 by over 40 years with current safeguards and grounding he will be fine. As with anything, unplugging the battery and removing current flow is good with ANY scenario. Also, recommending what you as a welder do is good advise.

So his question is answered, you will be fine, but as a precaution and to save Google having to search more articles to win the argument, a good suggestion is removing the battery.
10-19-2010 10:07 PM
rrich For those that are interested - and for the non-believers that electrical energy is transmitted when there's a spark.

The very early transmitters used what they called a spark gap. That spark-generated electrical noise radiates, not just between the electrodes but all over. The spark was turned on and off to generate a “modulated” noise - Morse Code was used to communicate information.

When electric welding a strong current in the form of a spark is generated, melting the work piece. It's not unlike the early spark transmitters. (Who remembers Morse Code? I had to be able to use it at 25 words per minute to get my Ham license (General) years ago in 1963.) WA6EMZ

Energy was transmitted through the air or any other conductive medium. That energy can be detrimental to modern day electronics - like your PCM.

If interested, do a little searching about Marconi, Nicola Tesla, and others. Simply search “spark transmitters” or the names mentioned. The early history of radio communication is very interesting. There is an interesting article even about how the Titanic, using spark transmitters had trouble communicating with the rescue ship.

Spark-gap transmitter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spark transmitters

High Frequency Noise

Unfortunately reading about it is far more complicated than simply disconnecting the battery.

Is this the Pirate Board? It seems like it by the way playing it safe is resisted so much.
10-19-2010 09:39 PM
pyrobling not gonna be able to quote the extensive background that everyone else gets to here....i only get to go off of the 2.5 years of schooling/training and $450,000 (yeah i think that's crazy too) navy education for computer and elctronics....but being as those big things in the water are no longer made of wood there is a very extensive training with regards to EMI and RF and all the other fun electronics acronyms you get to cover when going over affects of welding and such. in your scenario, it will be fine without having to disconnect as long as you are closely grounded. unfortunately, after training and brainwashing the principles and training into me....i'm still forced to disconnect all power and unplug the right cables so i don't get in trouble.

moral of the story.....you'll be fine, and yes i have welded too so there aren't arguments. good luck on your project
10-19-2010 09:18 PM
Dewry636 Well, WOW... This thread got a ton of reaction! I didn't expect all of the replies and everyone on here is really informative! I will side with caution and just go ahead and unplug it.... Thanks for all of the replies! ---- It seems I will have to wait until the end of the month before I even get to weld on my jeep...... Busy, Busy at work! Which is a good thing after finally getting a new job after collecting partial unemployment for over a year....... I am happy to work!
10-19-2010 09:14 PM
bobsalmon Jerry B. is right, just weld the thing. The PCM will be fine.

Mellissas6570, interesting background. I believe that if any AC currents are flowing due to EMF or low freq. RF, it would be better for the PCM to be grounded/connected in order to return such current to ground. As opposed to the PCM floating without a ground. I'm a radio amateur, N3JQD, and Xmit high power RF from my Wrangler, typically anywhere from 3.8Mhz to 7.29 Mhz at up to 500W. My only problem is the darn fuel pump noise be received by the Xcvr. My entire frame and body are grounded everywhere using braided flat cable. The hood, the frame, the exhaust is even grounded thus all metal is bonded to ground and creating a suitable groundplane for Xmit. So, anyway to attenuate the fuel pump noise or eliminate it? Sorry, to hijack your post Dewry.
10-19-2010 08:51 PM
Ggg I do not want to argue this point because there are some very well educated people who say it should be OK to leave the PCM, etc. connected. But there is one reason rrich gave that is hard to argue with. Disconnecting the PCM is so simple and easy to do why not do it.
There are also those here who say they have welded for a long time and never had an issue, I used to be one of those lucky people too. But as recently as two years ago I fried two computers welding on vehicles with the computer connected so now I disconnect them. Maybe I had some weird oddity happen, I don't know. The ground was close (within 3 feet) but obviously could have been closer.
Just adding my thoughts and personal experience is all.
10-19-2010 08:00 PM
baja Alright man its suppertime and momma made pasgetti!!!!!Nums nums nums!Later good people later!
10-19-2010 07:40 PM
baja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissas6570 View Post
Yes and I can remember when the cops would make you just pour out your beer and tell you to go home
I remember when they would escort you down by the creek and drink beer with you!
10-19-2010 07:40 PM
baja Ha nobody knows what I said to s3nt3nc3dabcdefg!
10-19-2010 07:39 PM
Melissas6570
Quote:
Originally Posted by baja View Post
AH the good old days.
Yes and I can remember when the cops would make you just pour out your beer and tell you to go home
10-19-2010 07:28 PM
s3nt3nc3d
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
(Side note - I have the same make and model pacemaker as Dick Chaney - that's why my lawyer friends won't go duck hunting with me anymore.)


I have no welding knowledge so I have nothing to add to this thread...I know my buddy is a mechanic and I've never seen him unplug the battery or computer before welding in a vehicle, but as mentioned, he always puts his ground clamp near where he's welding.
10-19-2010 07:26 PM
baja AH the good old days.
10-19-2010 07:21 PM
baja Remember what?
10-19-2010 07:11 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by baja View Post
Yes but maybe I was a specialist at one time!
But you can't remember right?
10-19-2010 07:09 PM
baja Yes but maybe I was a specialist at one time!
10-19-2010 07:07 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by baja View Post
I also have worked with hemp.
She's not talking about the smoking type of hemp.
10-19-2010 07:06 PM
baja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissas6570 View Post
How much shielding do you think is on the pacemaker? Not much.
Go figure. Its not made to be in a nasty environment. Look where the PCM is located. It is in a very bad place. Take a speca and a antenna and look around with the Jeep running. Its nasty. I am very shocked that you have not had a issue around the motor while its running.

Yes I know. I am a NARTE certified electromagnetic interference engineer. I have worked for UL conducting Medical testing and electronic compleance testing, and the Gov. doing MIL-STD-461, DO-160, HEMP, and HIRF testing.
I also have worked with hemp testing.
10-19-2010 06:35 PM
burton160w Someones getting his feelings hurt. What everyone here is basically telling you is that you do not have to. In fact, I just called a diesel mechanic who just finished schooling at Penn State and said that he's actually been instructed to leave the battery connected to act at worst, as a buffer.

And putting quotations around words doesn't make it a quote. Not a single person here used the phrase "expert" or "in the know."

See The “Blog” of “Unnecessary” Quotation Marks

I think what people have provided are significant backgrounds either through certifications or experience that do make them experts on the topic and can answer in an expert fashion what the proper precautions are. What constitutes an expert to you?

Do you remove the engine when you wash under the hood because you run the risk of getting water in the spark plug well?

Not to mention, your credibility lends to the fact that despite worrying about your PCM, you still weld while your doctors are saying not to.
10-19-2010 05:50 PM
Ibuildembig Settle down beavis

I for one can back up my education and 20+ years of professional electronics experience in the field day in and day out.

I can also back up that I have personally welded everything from a jeep to a volvo 18 wheeler, to a kubota tractor all having ECMs and never had a problem. I do not have a pacemaker, but that wasn't the question the original poster asked.
10-19-2010 05:00 PM
rrich THEN GO AHEAD AND DO IT!

Do you think anyone really cares that you do it? Who cares if YOU damage YOURS? Try the new bullets - nobody will care about it either. After the first few tries, let us know how it felt.

My main objection is when so called "experts" that "claim" to be EE'S or welders or "in the know" because they "know someone that --," advise people to do things that are detrimental, risky, or just downright unsafe.

Especially when the preventative step is so simple. Or maybe it's not so simple for some to disconnect and ground the battery cable. Less than 2 minutes is clearly a waste of time for them - or do they have to hire it done?


Comment about the pacemaker - it does not have wires running all over me to run headlights, brakelights, turnsignals, a heater, AC, instruments, stereos, or accessories to act as long antennas. The longest wires are 2 wires about 3" long connecting into the heart muscle - and those are dual conductors with a shield. But still it gets affected.
10-19-2010 03:21 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissas6570 View Post
Yes I know. I am a NARTE certified electromagnetic interference engineer. I have worked for UL conducting Medical testing and electronic compleance testing, and the Gov. doing MIL-STD-461, DO-160, HEMP, and HIRF testing.
Based on all that mumbo-jumbo and alphabet soup what could you possibly know about RF or other forms of electrical interference.
10-19-2010 03:17 PM
Melissas6570
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Sure is easy to tell who has tested the bullets!

I have a pacemaker - almost 2 years now. The instructions that came with the pacemaker say "Don't." If I mention it to doctors they all say "Don't." My doctors are at Loma Linda Hospital - they are some of the best heart specialists in the world. But they obviously know less?

I "push the limits" too, I still weld with mine - I try to keep that side of me as far away as possible from the arc.
MIG welding doesn't seem to affect it near as much as a regular stick AC welder. I've felt the pacemaker do weird - probably double triggering - the heart stops pumping blood when it does. Even standing too close to someone else welding with a stick welder affects it. Symptoms - weak feeling, vision goes blurry, feeling of losing consciousness. It hasn't triggered the defibrillator - yet.

That proves you can get away with things some of the time.

(Side note - I have the same make and model pacemaker as Dick Chaney - that's why my lawyer friends won't go duck hunting with me anymore.)

You can find most anything to justify anything on the web - just look at the elections - lots of bull, almost 0 truth.


Go ahead - please - we need an example.

Just because someone else gets away with robbing a store -
How much shielding do you think is on the pacemaker? Not much.
Go figure. Its not made to be in a nasty environment. Look where the PCM is located. It is in a very bad place. Take a speca and a antenna and look around with the Jeep running. Its nasty. I am very shocked that you have not had a issue around the motor while its running.

Yes I know. I am a NARTE certified electromagnetic interference engineer. I have worked for UL conducting Medical testing and electronic compleance testing, and the Gov. doing MIL-STD-461, DO-160, HEMP, and HIRF testing.
This thread has more than 30 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 AM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC