|11-06-2010 02:53 AM|
|jdhallissey||There are lots of reasons lighter helps you in wheeling. Is there a technical point behind it maybe 3 but everything else is more for piece of mind.|
|11-06-2010 01:37 AM|
|Rawkon||so far the only benefit is its lighter...... and lighter helps in which way???|
|11-05-2010 11:05 PM|
|11-05-2010 11:02 PM|
|11-05-2010 11:00 PM|
|11-05-2010 10:58 PM|
|11-05-2010 10:07 PM|
|11-05-2010 10:05 PM|
|11-05-2010 09:12 PM|
|11-05-2010 09:00 PM|
|jdhallissey||I like this debate. SO 6061 aluminum is strong nobody doubts that but what happens over time when you rub it on rocks. It makes a divot correct?! So moving on from that that divot now becomes a weak spot since you have now given it a chance to bend there (you have made a crease) Aluminum will bend faster once it has been compromised. I am wanting to go full corner armor. I am going to wait a little while longer to see what happens some more. I do run a tummy tuck from UCF and the thing weighted in at 15 pounds my stocker was around 60. Going that far why has nobody made tube fenders out of aluminum? If it really is that much stronger and lighter then that would be the point right?! Holds up better, last longer. Might cost you more but then it is a trade off correct.|
|11-05-2010 08:56 PM|
I'd love to get the aluminum stuff, these points from both sides make me look at both and really weigh them out. Just for me the price of the aluminum parts are a good amount more, and I'm not sure if its worth it for me. (I have rock quarries and wooded trails here in Indiana.) I wish I was out west! Maybe once I graduate!
Anywho, it seems like if you have the money, and you want your rig done right and being the best it can be and you run some tough trails then go for aluminum but if you wheel occasionally on wooded trails or rock quarrys like me, and have limited money but want the extra protection go for the steel.
I dont see you making a bad decision either way! You are protecting your jeep while Jeepin and thats all that matters!
Keep it wheelin' steel or aluminum. As long as we all get home after we tackle any challenge that comes before us!
|11-05-2010 08:14 PM|
|Jeepzcb09||The aluminum corrner armor is 50lbs less than steel|
|11-05-2010 02:54 PM|
Could be just a one time use. But same with metals, once the yield point is reached, it bends without springing back.
I think I have a can of that hard spray foam, I'll cut a couple of sheets and make a sandwich. Then see how it does with a few tons of pressure on it. I'll start a new thread about the results - good or bad. Might be a few days.
My concern would be moisture - if moisture could seep in, it might compromise the metal skins from the inside by corrosion. Closed cell might help prevent that, don't know.
I've seen some things using that principle - like some ice chests, even a "glass" camper made by Ford in the 60's. Two thin weak shells with foam in between them. Almost indestructible.
Some of that foam gets really hard. I had a tenant seal a hole where a pipe went through a 6" brick wall. I had to cut that hole open again - it was so hard it dulled 2 good hole saws!
|11-05-2010 02:11 PM|
All kidding aside, its a novel idea...done right it could work very well. Just have to make sure it could be manufactured at a competitive cost.
With hard foam though, I'd think it'd be a one time use type of deal...similar to a motorcycle helmet. Once crushed, it'd be ineffective. I could be misinterpreting the concept though.
|11-05-2010 01:27 PM|
""""""he runs the toughest trails"""""
He He -- Same ones I do, Johnson Valley is right up the highway from me - about 12 miles. That's real handy for a "spur of the moment" ride which we often did. It was our local "test track."
At least I did - until my feet went bad, making it difficult to walk, much less operate 3 pedals.
That's why I've been getting rid of my stock, no longer doing customer repairs, and selling some of my equipment.
He He - I remember seeing something a few years ago - a flier or advertisement - a very thin aluminum engine skid plate strengthened on the topside with 2" of hard foam! Supposedly the foam stiffened it, and in case it did bend, it cushioned the impact on vital parts. Never saw one in use, but it does leave some food for thought.
How 'bout 2 thin plates spaced apart with hard foam in between them? Same idea as honeycomb aluminum or corrugated cardboard.
I gotta try making a hunk of it, then testing it in my press.
|11-05-2010 11:01 AM|
You do bring up good points on the ability to work on aluminum...its certainly not the same as steel. Matter of fact, there's a lot about aluminum that makes it a pain to work with
|11-05-2010 01:56 AM|
Yup, 38 lbs for the same sizes, configurations, and thicknesses.
But to get the same strength it would have to be about 3 times thicker.
3 x 38 lbs = 114 lbs. 110 vs 114 What's the gain or loss?
And - I'm equipped to cut, grind, bend, and weld steel more than aluminum.
And - if I want, annealing, tempering, or hardening things is easier with steel.
Aluminum can be changed too, but it's a more precise and complicated process.
And - who carries an on-board welder that's capable of welding BOTH aluminum and steel? You never know what you or someone else will break.
For me steel is the more logical and better choice - for others it's a matter of preference.
I'm certainly not saying aluminum is bad. I used to own part of Don's Chassis - we specialized in Formula I chassis. They were almost entirely aluminum and carbon fibre. Strength was obtained from the configuration far more than the material.
Aluminum certainly has it's place, steel has it's place.
I'm not an engineer, but I did employ them - I usually had about 30.
|11-05-2010 12:58 AM|
just playing devils advocate cause im bored.
why would a rockcrawler care about weight savings? ive seen crazy heavy rigs go through the hammers just as well as the "lightweight" ones. does goin to light weight armor make any difference? for those with tons of experience and have run both is it just somethin new that looks good and works????
|11-05-2010 12:29 AM|
|DevilDogDoc||My Savvy front bumper weighs 17 lbs with hardware and tow hooks, stock weighed 16. Why in the hell would I want a 100 lb bumper? I dont think it would be any stronger than what I run.|
|11-04-2010 11:57 PM|
Anyway, looking at your stuff...first, you have to consider how thick it is in comparison to what Savvy is comparing...they are probably comparing it to the thickest stuff they could find (or an equivalent thickness to their parts)...second, if your stuff were aluminum, it'd be 38 lbs. You could use thicker material and still come in well under the weight of all that steel. And depending on the steel used, it is entirely possible to end up with a stronger part, weighing less by going with 6061 Aluminum. Also, for another example, ARB advertises their bumpers (steel) as weighing 90-100 lbs (easily explaining the 500 lb argument Savvy used). Again, make that out of aluminum and you're looking at less than 40 lbs.
Simply providing an engineering prospective here. Jerry seems to have the real world prospective with this stuff. But from that engineering prospective, aluminum really seems an ideal material for this application...
|11-04-2010 09:58 PM|
Interesting - 70 lbs gas tank skid?
80lbs or rocker armor?
70 lbs of corner armor?
I doubt that's even close to realistic.
The mfgrs of that stuff never publish the weights - you have to buy one to see. Look them up!
Mine - steering box plate, LCA plates, full engine/tranny skid plate, extended diff plates that run back under the U-joints for protection, 3 rails alongside the DS to protect the DS, side rock rails, gas tank skid plate, -- all made of steel by me. TOTAL of all the above comes to 110 lbs.
Sorry, no corner plates.
They've been tested on the Hammer trails - those famous trails are right up the street from me - only about 12 miles away. You know I've been there frequently.
"""""Add that to all of the other stuff we cram into them and it is not uncommon to see an extra 500lbs on a Jeep."""""
Is he inferring that if it's made of aluminum, you don't need on-board air, welder, ice chest, jacks, tools etc?
Think about it - what would you say if Jeep announced all their roll cages and safety devices was now made of aluminum? Brakes? Gears? Suspension parts?
Remember - it's not the materiel itself that makes the strength - it's the configuration. Look at paper - inherently weak, but very light. Pound for pound, corrugated cardboard (shaped paper) is stronger than steel.
Buy whatever makes you feel secure. I'll do the same.
|11-04-2010 07:49 PM|
Density of mild steel - 0.284 lb/cubic inch
Density of 6061 Al - 0.098 lb/cubic inch
But, if you're like these guys talking about full length corner armor, gas tank skids, bumpers, rocker protection, etc, etc, etc....you're going to see far more substantial weight savings.
From Savvy's website (obviously a biased source, but still giving you information on why they choose to manufacture with aluminum rather than steel): "Our aluminum products are designed to be as strong as a comparable steel products at less than half the weight. Think of it this way. We put 70 lbs of corner armor, 70 lbs of gas tank skid armor, 80 lbs of rocker armor on our Jeeps. That's at least 220 lbs more than a stock Jeep. Add that to all of the other stuff we cram into them and it is not uncommon to see an extra 500lbs on a Jeep. Factor in the bigger wheels and your Jeep is now a dog and the suspension sags. If the rockers, gas tank skid and corners only weighed a total of 75 lbs you see why we are making things out of aluminum."
And for this application, there's really no disadvantage to aluminum...
|11-04-2010 07:01 PM|
|11-04-2010 06:52 PM|
Realistically - what is the weight difference between the steel and aluminum corner guards? 3 lbs? 6 lbs? Will that make a huge difference?" Leave 2 beers at home to compensate.
Aluminum is not always the answer for everything - no good for seat cushions. LOL
A good point brought up - seeing corner guards immediately brings to mind hiding already crushed corners or rust. Even if there is no rust when you put them on, you will have it later. Either type will trap and hold water, but the aluminum against the steel body will also have the electrolysis effect, promoting corrosion faster.
The fuel tank skid plate - I like the shiny way it looks. When you run over someone they can see their refection and how badly you hurt them.
|11-04-2010 02:39 PM|
|11-04-2010 02:20 PM|
|Jeepzcb09||jgorm,Dude ive seen some of the sheit jerrys been through........ that was prolly the first 10 min of his 1st trip out in his new rig, and if not maybe that shows how tough it really is. What do you have against savvy? Have you ever talked to their owner, i have he is a jeep/offroad genious|
|10-27-2010 09:42 AM|
Great Savvy pitch from the guy driving the Savvy shop rig.
|10-26-2010 07:05 PM|
|Jeepzcb09||Now thats the kind of answer im lookin for Jerry!! Looks like im gonna get Savvy, Thanks!!|
|10-26-2010 06:20 PM|
Saying steel is stronger than aluminum is the "easy" answer given by those looking for the easy way out of such a question. However and with the right grade of aluminum, T-6 6061 as is used by Tuffy, the question is moot since both materials will be more than strong enough for corners, skidplates, etc.. The benefit to T-6 6061 is that it is more than strong enough to resist gouging, denting, etc. while being significantly lighter than steel.
In my particular personal experiences with T-6 6061 aluminum which is shared by all those I know running the same pieces, I've not managed to damage them beyond scratching them. For example, my gas tank skidplate has been hit SO hard SO many times while rock crawling on big sharp rocks, enough that it hurt my teeth, that I can say it's been tested as hard as it is ever likely to be. Scratches? Yes, certainly. Dents or being gouged out? Nope, not at all.
|10-26-2010 05:57 PM|
I went with the Rokmen steel stryker corners just because I liked being able to have the welded on stryker tubes for more protection bouncing off trees, attachment point for tie downs, even a place to walk if burried in mud.... and the fact that I live in New England and dont want to risk the chance for a galvanic reaction between aluminum corners and my steel tub down the road.
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