Jeep Wrangler Forum - Reply to Topic
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > General Tech Forums > General Jeep Discussion > attaching recovery strap

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Thread: attaching recovery strap Reply to Thread
Title:
  
Message:
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
11-28-2010 01:00 PM
jebby oh dear
11-27-2010 07:05 PM
shrubeck Sooooooooo did anyone in this heated debate see my post with the ring gear?
11-27-2010 03:47 PM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepjones View Post
force of the differentials digging themselves into the mud.

Say what?
11-27-2010 12:40 PM
Bubba68CS OK, so the reverse gear being weak argument is just that...weak. When you park a manual transmission vehicle you're told to put it in first OR reverse as they are the lowest and strongest gears. Not to mention, many times your reverse gear is straight cut, increasing strength. On an automatic, the same set of clutches are engaged in first and reverse...and those are your strongest clutch packs.

Now the differential gear argument is absolutely valid. The way the gears are cut make them significantly weaker pulling in reverse.

Anyone looking for validation of these opinions, I point you to 4WheelOffroad's Q&A section:

November 2010 Nuts & Bolts - 4-Wheel & Off-Road Magazine
11-27-2010 12:35 PM
jeepjones I figure whatever works, works.
11-27-2010 12:34 PM
JIMBOX Good point and very well put-


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepjones View Post
I have a little different way of thinking about it. Up here most of the time if you are stuck it will be in very thick and deep mud or muskeg. I have pulled out more jeeps successfully in reverse than in forward because of the fact that if you are pulling forward you are actually pulling against the force of the differentials digging themselves into the mud. Whereas if you pull backwards the diff's don't dig in. The breakage factor is always there as I have seen many Toyota's snap axles, never a jeep yet. Also I would like to add all of my recoveries have been done with a "recovery strap" not a winch. All the axle/gear breakage's I've seen were done while using a winch, probably because of the downward force being produced as the winch pulls down on the front end (theory). Sometimes you can only go forward to recover a vehicle because of space available and safety reasons. As to removing cars and such from ditches, I always state that any damage that occurs is not my fault and I am not liable for any that may occur during the recovery process to the persons vehicle. If they agree with these terms then the removal will commence, but I always make sure the people understand that it is possible something on their car may break.
We need variety and I'll stick to my age old beliefs, but I appreciate your info entry !!

Since we are a free people--decide for yourself and act accordingly !!

JIMBO
11-27-2010 12:32 PM
jeepjones
11-27-2010 12:29 PM
jeepjones I have a little different way of thinking about it. Up here most of the time if you are stuck it will be in very thick and deep mud or muskeg. I have pulled out more jeeps successfully in reverse than in forward because of the fact that if you are pulling forward you are actually pulling against the force of the differentials digging themselves into the mud. Whereas if you pull backwards the diff's don't dig in. The breakage factor is always there as I have seen many Toyota's snap axles, never a jeep yet. Also I would like to add all of my recoveries have been done with a "recovery strap" not a winch. All the axle/gear breakage's I've seen were done while using a winch, probably because of the downward force being produced as the winch pulls down on the front end (theory). Sometimes you can only go forward to recover a vehicle because of space available and safety reasons. As to removing cars and such from ditches, I always state that any damage that occurs is not my fault and I am not liable for any that may occur during the recovery process to the persons vehicle. If they agree with these terms then the removal will commence, but I always make sure the people understand that it is possible something on their car may break.
11-27-2010 12:13 PM
4x4grey88 wow ... this is a hard thread to keep up with..

strapping to gears to ????
11-27-2010 12:07 PM
JIMBOX --Not a chance !


Quote:
Originally Posted by J10 View Post
I dont know could you cite a source
JIMBO
11-27-2010 12:04 PM
J10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMBOX View Post
Thanx for more info, but

Dana 44 gears. Dana 30/35/60 gears aren't used in the Land Rovers !!

Just a point

JIMBO

I dont know could you cite a source
11-27-2010 11:24 AM
JIMBOX Thanx for more info, but

Dana 44 gears. Dana 30/35/60 gears aren't used in the Land Rovers !!

Just a point

JIMBO
11-27-2010 10:47 AM
bobjenkins Thanks for the info. Its always good to know more. I think the people wanting more info would all agree on that
11-27-2010 10:32 AM
J10 I found this, I am not sure how creditable the source is but that is for you to decide
Here is the web site for ref
Introduction to Differential Gearing

It backs up what shrubeck was saying, the gears are cut to be stronger in a direction, the forward direction.

All this said the transmission give the most power out in the reverse gear, if I need more power I am going to be pulling in reverse



Regular versus Reverse Rotation Gears


Differential gears have directional teeth. This results in the individual teeth having both a drive side and a coast side to the teeth.
They can run in either direction but ideally you want the drive side to be taking the larger load under acceleration. This is primarily because the drive side of the tooth is in the range of 20 to 30% stronger than the coast side of the gear. This is referred to as a regular rotation gear set.
You would logically assume that all differentials are designed to drive on the drive side of the tooth but this is not the case. The vast majority of rear differentials do run on the drive side of the teeth. Most front differentials run on the coast side of the teeth. An example is Land Rover.
Many Land Rover front and rear differentials are interchangeable, i.e. you can switch them back and forth. The rear diff is running in the correct direction. The front differential is actually running backwards compared to the rear! This is not normally a big issue but if you want to maximize the durability of the ring and pinion gears, you can accomplish this by reversing the cut of the front gears. These are known as a reverse cut or a reverse rotation design. These will make the backwards running, front differential gears mesh properly, i.e. drive on the drive side of the teeth. As noted earlier, the drive side of the gear teeth are substantially more durable so you increase the durability of the front gear set by 20%+ by this change alone. We were the first and are currently the only Land Rover differential gear supplier that incorporates this benefit into our designs.

A secondary but significant advantage of front reverse cut gears is longer bearing life. This is because the larger, better lubricated, inner pinion bearing is taking the load under acceleration.
11-27-2010 08:34 AM
JIMBOX It's a bit hard to understand, why you guys are making this such a big thing !

If someone says to "run 28psi in your 33" tires", do you ask for WRITTEN PROOF FROM GOODYEAR/BFG/MICHELIN ???

If someone says 'be sure and strap things down in your cargo area, so they won't fly around", do you need written proof from wreck survivors ???

If someone says "don't turn SHARP when in 4lo/4hi" do you need written proof ??

---------------------------------NO--------------------------------

This is a 4wd forum, when you have a question-you ask, and get multiple answers-evaluate-use your common sense then go with it

When there are pics, great, articles-great, videos-great, what you may consider WRITTEN PROOF may not be available, without time consuming research !!

---------------------LIVE WITHIT--------------------------

I'll stand by my advice, that using REVERSE to perform RECOVERY is inherently dangerous, to the Diff, especially front and transmissions/windshields-

If you can't turn around, then use your judgement, a shackle can help, especially if it's a real difficult RECOVERY-especially a winch, could be the savior

Smokem if you gottem !!

JIMBO
11-27-2010 04:01 AM
s3nt3nc3d I too am genuinely interested in facts backing up either claim...not for arguments sake, but for proper knowledge on the subject...if it's bad, I want to know why it's bad for sure. If it's safe on the vehicle's drivetrain, I want something to assure me that it's safe.
11-27-2010 01:35 AM
Bigstonz Hey! Jerry agrees. See daddyrod thread called "Tow Hooks" 3-17-08. He cites the axles as being the weak link. He also recommends being in 4x4 mode to distribute the stress on the drivetrain evenly. I've also seen Schrubeck's info on the ring and pinion teeth in other forums.
11-27-2010 01:34 AM
MikeMTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD Adams View Post
Okay, let's recap, shall we, JIMBOX? You claim that is is dangerous to pull a vehicle in reverse, however cannot cite factual authority on the subject. When asked to clarify your thesis and offer proof of your claim, you tell us you are not going to research the subject?

JIMBOX: unless you have factual information to offer the OP and others in this thread and you can back it up with a credible authority, DON'T BOTHER POSTING NONSENSE. The internet is already full of idiots spouting BS as it is. Don't add to it.

And from BIGSTONZ, we get:

"From what I understand, differential gears are designed such that they are much stronger pulling forward"

I've asked for more factual information on this claim as well. All I hear is the sound of crickets. If you can't cite factual authority to back up your OPINION, again, don't waste our time with this nonsense.

The biggest reason I usually avoid Jeep Discussion Groups is because of nonsense like this. Jerry would probably agree with me. If you don't know what you're talking about, kindly refrain from asserting your opinion as factual information. Otherwise, you may run into someone like me.
I don't have a problem with someone posting incorrect info, as long as it is corrected. You, on the other hand, are just being rude. I joined this forum because I rarely see people get flamed. Don't start a trend.........
11-27-2010 01:17 AM
Bigstonz Sorry I can't provide you with a specific reference. I used to help folks out in reverse all the time, it's more convenient. A freind pointed out that it's better for the drivetrain to tow forwards. I checked around on the various forums and found alot of references to support this. Go ahead and ask Jerry or any other jeep guru, I'm pretty confident they'd agree.
Have a rough Turkey Day there, JD?
11-26-2010 10:31 PM
bobjenkins I'm interested why still. Someone states why then someone else says that's not posssible . We need some certified WF researchers

Or someone can just text chacha LOL
11-26-2010 09:08 PM
Barrie Keep it nice and civil people.
11-26-2010 08:53 PM
JIMBOX Heh Heh, I'll post what I want to and if you're not happy with my lack of FACTUAL data to back up anything I say--


Quote:
Originally Posted by JD Adams View Post
Okay, let's recap, shall we, JIMBOX? You claim that is is dangerous to pull a vehicle in reverse, however cannot cite factual authority on the subject. When asked to clarify your thesis and offer proof of your claim, you tell us you are not going to research the subject?

JIMBOX: unless you have factual information to offer the OP and others in this thread and you can back it up with a credible authority, DON'T BOTHER POSTING NONSENSE. The internet is already full of idiots spouting BS as it is. Don't add to it.

And from BIGSTONZ, we get:

"From what I understand, differential gears are designed such that they are much stronger pulling forward"

I've asked for more factual information on this claim as well. All I hear is the sound of crickets. If you can't cite factual authority to back up your OPINION, again, don't waste our time with this nonsense.

The biggest reason I usually avoid Jeep Discussion Groups is because of nonsense like this. Jerry would probably agree with me. If you don't know what you're talking about, kindly refrain from asserting your opinion as factual information. Otherwise, you may run into someone like me.
PM the Admin/Mod and have me banned for wasting bandwidth, because I'm sure that no one would dare question any "observations" you might post and if I'm not banned, I'll just keep posting what I personally know, without FACTUAL data links-

It"s too bad you can't take any PERSONAL data and treat it as factual, based on experience, rather than a posted readers digest article-

Maybe you can ask (Jerry)???if he has FACTUAL evidence that the recovery action, at any time doesn't have any limit on the recovery vehicle using REVERSE !!

Please post your data so the general forum, will see that I'm way off base !

JIMBO
11-26-2010 08:47 PM
daggo66 Actually neither side has presented any worthwhile evidence.

The Army manual makes a refenece the you should connect the front of the stuck vehicle to the REAR of the recovery vehicle. There is also a diagram of a recovery being pulled forward and attached to the rear.

Dropping the name "Jerry" doesn't impress me nor validate your credentials.
11-26-2010 08:34 PM
JD Adams
Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMBOX View Post

"you should NEVER tow using reverse !!"

"I'm not going to research info for the dangers of using the tow vehicle, (normal) in reverse..."
Okay, let's recap, shall we, JIMBOX? You claim that is is dangerous to pull a vehicle in reverse, however cannot cite factual authority on the subject. When asked to clarify your thesis and offer proof of your claim, you tell us you are not going to research the subject?

JIMBOX: unless you have factual information to offer the OP and others in this thread and you can back it up with a credible authority, DON'T BOTHER POSTING NONSENSE. The internet is already full of idiots spouting BS as it is. Don't add to it.

And from BIGSTONZ, we get:

"From what I understand, differential gears are designed such that they are much stronger pulling forward"

I've asked for more factual information on this claim as well. All I hear is the sound of crickets. If you can't cite factual authority to back up your OPINION, again, don't waste our time with this nonsense.

The biggest reason I usually avoid Jeep Discussion Groups is because of nonsense like this. Jerry would probably agree with me. If you don't know what you're talking about, kindly refrain from asserting your opinion as factual information. Otherwise, you may run into someone like me.
11-26-2010 05:38 PM
jgwalt I was referring to my ax-5. Thanks J-10
11-26-2010 05:28 PM
J10
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
I've never heard of that. Should I start running difficult trails in reverse now?
Here are the ratios of the gears, the higher the number the more power you will get aka more turns of the motor to the transmission


AX-15 - 1997-1999
* 5 speed manual
* Used with 6 cyl models
* 10 spine input
* 23 spline output
* Ratios:

1st - 3.83
2nd - 2.33
3rd - 1.44
4th - 1.00
5th - 0.79
Rev - 4.22

Check out the rest here
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/tj-t...ecs-26347.html

As much fun as reverse through an entire trail run sounds I might advise against it
11-26-2010 05:22 PM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgwalt View Post


because the reverse gear is lower than 1st.
I've never heard of that. Should I start running difficult trails in reverse now?
11-26-2010 04:56 PM
jgwalt
Quote:
I await proof of this claim...


I do too. I thought it was almost better to pull in reverse because the reverse gear is lower than 1st. I've pulled people out lots of times in reverse with no problem.
11-26-2010 11:59 AM
shrubeck Check out the profile of ring gear teeth. The drive side is almost perpendicular to the ring. The coast side is at an angle. Towing in reverse puts pressure on the coast side instead of the drive side which pushes the ring and pinion gears away from eachother creating a lot of stress inside the differential. That said, pulling a car out of the snow slowly in reverse isn't going to hurt anything.

11-26-2010 11:06 AM
JIMBOX You read my commenrts about the Differentials-

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD Adams View Post
Here's a brief U.S. Army vehicle recovery manual for your perusal:

http://www.landroverbrotherhood.com/...lerecovery.pdf

Hmmm..nowhere do I see anything about transmission reverse or differential gearing being "weaker" then forward gearing for the purposes of vehicle recovery.

I await proof of this claim...
I'm not going to research info for the dangers of using the tow vehicle, (normal) in reverse, auto/manual, but

I've seen a Toyota and Ford blow reverse gears for recovery, using there front D-rings and I've read about the dangers for quite a few years--

If thats not good enough for you, thats fine-do what you want to, this isn't a training manual (join the ARMY)-



JIMBO
This thread has more than 30 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:42 AM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC