|11-28-2010 01:00 PM|
|11-27-2010 07:05 PM|
|shrubeck||Sooooooooo did anyone in this heated debate see my post with the ring gear?|
|11-27-2010 03:47 PM|
|11-27-2010 12:40 PM|
OK, so the reverse gear being weak argument is just that...weak. When you park a manual transmission vehicle you're told to put it in first OR reverse as they are the lowest and strongest gears. Not to mention, many times your reverse gear is straight cut, increasing strength. On an automatic, the same set of clutches are engaged in first and reverse...and those are your strongest clutch packs.
Now the differential gear argument is absolutely valid. The way the gears are cut make them significantly weaker pulling in reverse.
Anyone looking for validation of these opinions, I point you to 4WheelOffroad's Q&A section:
November 2010 Nuts & Bolts - 4-Wheel & Off-Road Magazine
|11-27-2010 12:35 PM|
|jeepjones||I figure whatever works, works.|
|11-27-2010 12:34 PM|
Good point and very well put-
Since we are a free people--decide for yourself and act accordingly !!
|11-27-2010 12:32 PM|
|11-27-2010 12:29 PM|
|jeepjones||I have a little different way of thinking about it. Up here most of the time if you are stuck it will be in very thick and deep mud or muskeg. I have pulled out more jeeps successfully in reverse than in forward because of the fact that if you are pulling forward you are actually pulling against the force of the differentials digging themselves into the mud. Whereas if you pull backwards the diff's don't dig in. The breakage factor is always there as I have seen many Toyota's snap axles, never a jeep yet. Also I would like to add all of my recoveries have been done with a "recovery strap" not a winch. All the axle/gear breakage's I've seen were done while using a winch, probably because of the downward force being produced as the winch pulls down on the front end (theory). Sometimes you can only go forward to recover a vehicle because of space available and safety reasons. As to removing cars and such from ditches, I always state that any damage that occurs is not my fault and I am not liable for any that may occur during the recovery process to the persons vehicle. If they agree with these terms then the removal will commence, but I always make sure the people understand that it is possible something on their car may break.|
|11-27-2010 12:13 PM|
wow ... this is a hard thread to keep up with..
strapping to gears to ????
|11-27-2010 12:07 PM|
--Not a chance !
|11-27-2010 12:04 PM|
I dont know could you cite a source
|11-27-2010 11:24 AM|
Thanx for more info, but
Dana 44 gears. Dana 30/35/60 gears aren't used in the Land Rovers !!
Just a point
|11-27-2010 10:47 AM|
|bobjenkins||Thanks for the info. Its always good to know more. I think the people wanting more info would all agree on that|
|11-27-2010 10:32 AM|
I found this, I am not sure how creditable the source is but that is for you to decide
Here is the web site for ref
Introduction to Differential Gearing
It backs up what shrubeck was saying, the gears are cut to be stronger in a direction, the forward direction.
All this said the transmission give the most power out in the reverse gear, if I need more power I am going to be pulling in reverse
Regular versus Reverse Rotation Gears
Differential gears have directional teeth. This results in the individual teeth having both a drive side and a coast side to the teeth.
They can run in either direction but ideally you want the drive side to be taking the larger load under acceleration. This is primarily because the drive side of the tooth is in the range of 20 to 30% stronger than the coast side of the gear. This is referred to as a regular rotation gear set.
You would logically assume that all differentials are designed to drive on the drive side of the tooth but this is not the case. The vast majority of rear differentials do run on the drive side of the teeth. Most front differentials run on the coast side of the teeth. An example is Land Rover.
Many Land Rover front and rear differentials are interchangeable, i.e. you can switch them back and forth. The rear diff is running in the correct direction. The front differential is actually running backwards compared to the rear! This is not normally a big issue but if you want to maximize the durability of the ring and pinion gears, you can accomplish this by reversing the cut of the front gears. These are known as a reverse cut or a reverse rotation design. These will make the backwards running, front differential gears mesh properly, i.e. drive on the drive side of the teeth. As noted earlier, the drive side of the gear teeth are substantially more durable so you increase the durability of the front gear set by 20%+ by this change alone. We were the first and are currently the only Land Rover differential gear supplier that incorporates this benefit into our designs.
A secondary but significant advantage of front reverse cut gears is longer bearing life. This is because the larger, better lubricated, inner pinion bearing is taking the load under acceleration.
|11-27-2010 08:34 AM|
It's a bit hard to understand, why you guys are making this such a big thing !
If someone says to "run 28psi in your 33" tires", do you ask for WRITTEN PROOF FROM GOODYEAR/BFG/MICHELIN ???
If someone says 'be sure and strap things down in your cargo area, so they won't fly around", do you need written proof from wreck survivors ???
If someone says "don't turn SHARP when in 4lo/4hi" do you need written proof ??
This is a 4wd forum, when you have a question-you ask, and get multiple answers-evaluate-use your common sense then go with it
When there are pics, great, articles-great, videos-great, what you may consider WRITTEN PROOF may not be available, without time consuming research !!
I'll stand by my advice, that using REVERSE to perform RECOVERY is inherently dangerous, to the Diff, especially front and transmissions/windshields-
If you can't turn around, then use your judgement, a shackle can help, especially if it's a real difficult RECOVERY-especially a winch, could be the savior
Smokem if you gottem !!
|11-27-2010 04:01 AM|
|s3nt3nc3d||I too am genuinely interested in facts backing up either claim...not for arguments sake, but for proper knowledge on the subject...if it's bad, I want to know why it's bad for sure. If it's safe on the vehicle's drivetrain, I want something to assure me that it's safe.|
|11-27-2010 01:35 AM|
|Bigstonz||Hey! Jerry agrees. See daddyrod thread called "Tow Hooks" 3-17-08. He cites the axles as being the weak link. He also recommends being in 4x4 mode to distribute the stress on the drivetrain evenly. I've also seen Schrubeck's info on the ring and pinion teeth in other forums.|
|11-27-2010 01:34 AM|
|11-27-2010 01:17 AM|
Sorry I can't provide you with a specific reference. I used to help folks out in reverse all the time, it's more convenient. A freind pointed out that it's better for the drivetrain to tow forwards. I checked around on the various forums and found alot of references to support this. Go ahead and ask Jerry or any other jeep guru, I'm pretty confident they'd agree.
Have a rough Turkey Day there, JD?
|11-26-2010 10:31 PM|
I'm interested why still. Someone states why then someone else says that's not posssible . We need some certified WF researchers
Or someone can just text chacha LOL
|11-26-2010 09:08 PM|
|Barrie||Keep it nice and civil people.|
|11-26-2010 08:53 PM|
Heh Heh, I'll post what I want to and if you're not happy with my lack of FACTUAL data to back up anything I say--
It"s too bad you can't take any PERSONAL data and treat it as factual, based on experience, rather than a posted readers digest article-
Maybe you can ask (Jerry)???if he has FACTUAL evidence that the recovery action, at any time doesn't have any limit on the recovery vehicle using REVERSE !!
Please post your data so the general forum, will see that I'm way off base !
|11-26-2010 08:47 PM|
Actually neither side has presented any worthwhile evidence.
The Army manual makes a refenece the you should connect the front of the stuck vehicle to the REAR of the recovery vehicle. There is also a diagram of a recovery being pulled forward and attached to the rear.
Dropping the name "Jerry" doesn't impress me nor validate your credentials.
|11-26-2010 08:34 PM|
JIMBOX: unless you have factual information to offer the OP and others in this thread and you can back it up with a credible authority, DON'T BOTHER POSTING NONSENSE. The internet is already full of idiots spouting BS as it is. Don't add to it.
And from BIGSTONZ, we get:
"From what I understand, differential gears are designed such that they are much stronger pulling forward"
I've asked for more factual information on this claim as well. All I hear is the sound of crickets. If you can't cite factual authority to back up your OPINION, again, don't waste our time with this nonsense.
The biggest reason I usually avoid Jeep Discussion Groups is because of nonsense like this. Jerry would probably agree with me. If you don't know what you're talking about, kindly refrain from asserting your opinion as factual information. Otherwise, you may run into someone like me.
|11-26-2010 05:38 PM|
|jgwalt||I was referring to my ax-5. Thanks J-10|
|11-26-2010 05:28 PM|
AX-15 - 1997-1999
* 5 speed manual
* Used with 6 cyl models
* 10 spine input
* 23 spline output
1st - 3.83
2nd - 2.33
3rd - 1.44
4th - 1.00
5th - 0.79
Rev - 4.22
Check out the rest here
As much fun as reverse through an entire trail run sounds I might advise against it
|11-26-2010 05:22 PM|
|11-26-2010 04:56 PM|
I do too. I thought it was almost better to pull in reverse because the reverse gear is lower than 1st. I've pulled people out lots of times in reverse with no problem.
|11-26-2010 11:59 AM|
Check out the profile of ring gear teeth. The drive side is almost perpendicular to the ring. The coast side is at an angle. Towing in reverse puts pressure on the coast side instead of the drive side which pushes the ring and pinion gears away from eachother creating a lot of stress inside the differential. That said, pulling a car out of the snow slowly in reverse isn't going to hurt anything.
|11-26-2010 11:06 AM|
You read my commenrts about the Differentials-
I've seen a Toyota and Ford blow reverse gears for recovery, using there front D-rings and I've read about the dangers for quite a few years--
If thats not good enough for you, thats fine-do what you want to, this isn't a training manual (join the ARMY)-
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