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-   -   RIPP Supercharger and Gear Ratio (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/ripp-supercharger-and-gear-ratio-103758.html)

kkroft 07-22-2011 04:40 PM

RIPP Supercharger and Gear Ratio
 
Hi. New to the forum and recently purchased a 2007 JK. I have just had a 2" mopar suspension lift added with 18" black XD rims and 35" Nitto Grapplers. I have a 6spd with 3.21 gears (DANA 44 rearend). I was considering swapping in a V8 (but had a high cost and effort, plus I would not be able to do this myself), but after much research, I am going to go with a RIPP Supercharger. I called RIPP today, they recommended going to 4.10 gears. My JK has become a real pooch with the larger tires and high gears. I don't do much offroading. This is my commute and weekend car, occasional towing (boat- 3500 lbs with trailer). I haven't tried the boat yet, as I know I won't like the performance with the 3.21s. I may do the gears sooner to reclaim some of my lost HP now.
So - after the quick background, my questions are:
-for the tire size/6spd/ and future plans for RIPP (planning to install this fall) are the 4.10s the way to go (again, more onroad driving than offroad)?
-Is there an economical way to do the gears? Swap from a wrecked JK, etc? Or do I need to bite the bullet and pay the $1200-1500 I see estimated on these sites for the change?
-Any bad experiences out there with RIPP?

Thanks.
-

MTH 07-22-2011 04:50 PM

4.10s would be good with all the extra power, but 4.56s will probably be a little cheaper and would work fine.

There's no cheaper way that I'm aware of. You can't install them yourself (absent a great deal of sophistication), and used ones aren't common. You can't use 4.10 Rubicon take-offs.

Should be an awesome set up though. Ripp gets great reviews. :thumb:

oilwell1415 07-22-2011 04:54 PM

With those big, heavy tires I would be tempted to use an even lower gear. You'll need enough to overcome not only the height of the tire, but the added inertia as well. Just going from a 32" tire to a 35" tire adds 20% more inertia even if the bigger tire and wheel are the same weight as the smaller one, which is probably not the case. Not only that, but IIRC, the RIPP is a centrifugal blower and won't do much for boost without spinning the engine. That means getting things rolling will be done with nothing more than your engine was capable of stock.

rics1997 07-22-2011 04:57 PM

If you can find 4.56 that would be probably your best choice since your towing w/35" tires. 4.10's may be better on gas but not towing and they are hard gears to get in a quality gear also. You may even have a hard time getting 4.56. If you plan on towing a lot , you may even consider 4.88's which are very common gears in any brand.

When you are looking at the tires on the chart, Remember you need to substract usually 1" for compression. So a 35" tire is actually 34" on the road from the weight of your Jeep compressing the tire.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...tio-chart2.jpg

MTH 07-22-2011 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilwell1415 (Post 1400630)
With those big, heavy tires I would be tempted to use an even lower gear. . . . .

Agreed. My understanding had always been that you should basically regear the 3.8 the same way whether you're getting a supercharger or not--the powerband is the powerband. Had it not been for the OP's comment that Ripp actually recommended 4.10s, I would've assumed 4.56s would have been best. Maybe even 4.88s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilwell1415 (Post 1400630)
Not only that, but IIRC, the RIPP is a centrifugal blower and won't do much for boost without spinning the engine. That means getting things rolling will be done with nothing more than your engine was capable of stock.

Small quibble here. Check out this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBIfMc13Kts

Ripp's supercharger--centrifugal or not--almost doubles the torque below 1300 RPMs. Ripp came on this site awhile back and explained this as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIPPMODS (Post 1166535)
We over sized the blower and take advantage of the air volume as well as the boost. Our system acts more like a light pressure turbo most of the time, where you use 2-4psi on your normal driving routine and 4-8psi when needed.

We have many clients who tow and are very happy with the results we deliver - A positive displacement blower will always blast the engine with boost even when you only want to tip into the throttle for speed control. The centrifugal's natural boost curve is much smoother and therefor predictable off road and gentler on the engine and a whole.

Stop the video at 1.50sec and see we are nearly doubling the torque at 1300 rpm - compared to stock.


deepbluerubi 07-22-2011 05:18 PM

. This is my commute and weekend car, occasional towing (boat- 3500 lbs with trailer). I haven't tried the boat yet, as I know I won't like the performance with the 3.21s.



Forget towing 3500lbs with a jk. Too short a wheelbase even if you get enough horsepower and torque.

rics1997 07-22-2011 05:23 PM

They actually made 4.10 gears for 2007 models. It was the only year the 4.10's were an option for non Rubicons. You might try Mopar if you want 4.10's

rics1997 07-22-2011 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepbluerubi (Post 1400683)
. This is my commute and weekend car, occasional towing (boat- 3500 lbs with trailer). I haven't tried the boat yet, as I know I won't like the performance with the 3.21s.



Forget towing 3500lbs with a jk. Too short a wheelbase even if you get enough horsepower and torque.

Are you KKroft? Withstanding that your ID here says deepbluerubi? Rubi?

MTH 07-22-2011 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rics1997 (Post 1400701)
They actually made 4.10 gears for 2007 models. It was the only year the 4.10's were an option for non Rubicons. You might try Mopar if you want 4.10's

Good point.

Should be able to find them here for the sake of comparing prices against aftermarket 4.56s.

deepbluerubi 07-22-2011 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rics1997 (Post 1400709)
Are you KKroft? Withstanding that your ID here says deepbluerubi? Rubi?


I haven't even had a beer yet and I'm confused. 2dr "jk" with 321's is only recommended 1000lb tow. With the unsprung weight added too imo he shouldn't try towing 3500lbs with it. Even with a gearing change it would be tough to safely tow with the short wheelbase something that heavy. He might get it moving but stopping and stability will be ugly. I cut out his quote to make it easier to read.............

kkroft 07-22-2011 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepbluerubi

I haven't even had a beer yet and I'm confused. 2dr "jk" with 321's is only recommended 1000lb tow. With the unsprung weight added too imo he shouldn't try towing 3500lbs with it. Even with a gearing change it would be tough to safely tow with the short wheelbase something that heavy. He might get it moving but stopping and stability will be ugly. I cut out his quote to make it easier to read.............

You confused me. I am kkroft, not sore who rubi is. My JK is a 4 door and rated for 3500 lbs towing

MTH 07-22-2011 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkroft

You confused me. I am kkroft, not sore who rubi is. My JK is a 4 door and rated for 3500 lbs towing

Yeah, I saw what happened there--they got crossed up on who was quoting who.

You (like me) have a "JKU". "JK" usually refers to the 2 doors. Technically, I don't think that's actually right (ie, from jeep's point if view, there are 2 door and 4 door "JKs"), but the custom has evolved aftermarket where "JKU" has come to signify the JK Unlimited. That's why deepbluerubi thought you had a 2 door.

Did you get the answers you were looking for on the supercharger and gearing?

oilwell1415 07-22-2011 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTH (Post 1400647)
Small quibble here. Check out this video:

‪RIPP Superchargers RIPP Header 6SPD Jeep Wrangler JK DYNO‬‏ - YouTube

Ripp's supercharger--centrifugal or not--almost doubles the torque below 1300 RPMs. Ripp came on this site awhile back and explained this as follows:

You can't determine what it did at 1300 rpm from that video because they didn't start the pull on the stock motor until 2400 rpm, and the curves aren't that far apart. It looks like about 160 ft-lbs stock and 210 ft-lbs with the blower, so I'll grant you a 25-30% gain. It appears the difference would be even less than that at 1400. It's not anywhere near a 100% again. Those numbers are also done at WOT, which you probably aren't going to start off with pulling a trailer and I wouldn't be real enthused about revving my engine that hard into a slipping clutch either.

You can see in the curve that the blower really starts doing work at about 3000 rpm, which is normal for a centrifugal. I like my good old fashioned intercooled roots blower. If I stomp it from a standstill I've got almost full boost before my foot gets all the way to the floor and boost is 100% controlled by my foot position, not engine speed. I've read the Ripp article about why they used what they used, and a lot of it really doesn't add up.

MTH 07-22-2011 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilwell1415
I've read the Ripp article about why they used what they used, and a lot of it really doesn't add up.

So you believe they're fabricating their results?

Not many folks here have superchargers, but a lot of folks do over at JK-F. In all the dozens of threads over there on the topic that I've read through, I never seen a single complaint about there being a problem with low end torque from the people that actually have the product. None. And there are dozens of posters over there that have them, and they're running 35s, 37s, towing boats, etc.

The biggest challenge every year appears to be getting the perfect tune for the CPU. After that, everybody--and I mean everybody--seems thrilled. I haven't checked in a while, but I know they were having issues with 2011s last I looked.

I've heard the whole roots style thing before, but nobody in the market that I'm aware of has approached anywhere near the factory-type performance that Ripp has, regardless of blower style. And while I get it in theory, the fact seems to be that whatever Ripp is doing for all practical purposes appears to substantially overcome the issue. Nobody that actually has one ever seems to complain.

MTH 07-23-2011 08:34 AM

Actually kkroft, another thought is to regear to 4.88s and call it a day. With that, you'll have more get up and go than you ever did in stock form. Truthfully, with the six speed manual, that may very well do it for you and you won't need the supercharger.

Of course, if that doesn't do it for you, then you're stuck being a little overgeared for the supercharger. Tough call. Maybe regear to 4.56s and see if you're satisfied. If not, get a supercharger or trade in for a 2012 if the reviews are looking good.

JeepOnRock 07-23-2011 09:13 AM

Regardless of whether you do 4.10, 4.56 or 4.88, you will need to change the carriers (this would be the time to install a locker if you were going to 4wheel).

The gears don't cost that much, and the cost for the various gears will be similar. When I first read the thread, my first thought was that 4.10 wouldn't be enough. I had a YJ on 35s, and the 4.10s weren't quite enough. Granted, it was a completely different vehicle, and the 4.0L is a different beast... but it didn't have a supercharger, either. But it was lighter.

I would say to go with a 4.56 gear. And if you think you might go bigger in the future, a 4.88 might be better. If you think your next set of tires might be 33s, the 4.10 would suffice. Install on the gears shouldn't be more than about $250 per axle... maybe a little more if local trends are different. Or maybe less.

On the subject of carriers, if you are going to stay with an open carrier, you should be able to find a used one. That shouldn't set you back much at all... in fact, if you look around with the local off-road crowd, somebody might have one or two laying around that they would let go of for beer money. If you have to buy new carriers, get something better than an open carrier.

If the budget isn't the primary thing, get something like an Eaton E-locker. I would suggest an ARB, but then in addition to the extra expense of the lockers, you'd be buying a compressor... and the install is more involved as well. The E-locker would still have the ability to run unlocked on the street (not affecting driveability on the way to work). A "real" locker, like a Detroit or even a limited slip, like a Tru-Trac would be less expensive, but you would feel it doing its thing on the street.

Just my opinion.

oilwell1415 07-23-2011 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTH (Post 1401871)
So you believe they're fabricating their results?

No, I believe they are getting the gains they are saying they are getting. I also believe they are choosing their words very carefully in their promotion of the product. I found one of their posts from this forum and have quoted it below and will go into more detail there.

Quote:

Not many folks here have superchargers, but a lot of folks do over at JK-F. In all the dozens of threads over there on the topic that I've read through, I never seen a single complaint about there being a problem with low end torque from the people that actually have the product. None. And there are dozens of posters over there that have them, and they're running 35s, 37s, towing boats, etc.
There is no doubt it's better than stock, but twice as much torque as stock down low is not shown or even suggested on the dyno chart. Of those that have the blower, how many are still running the stock gears? Changing the gear will make a huge difference in how everything else feels.

I worked in the performance industry for about 3 years. One thing I noticed is that when someone spends money on a mod, whether it's $10 or $10,000, they almost always feel an improvement whether there's one there or not. I can't tell you how many exhaust systems I've hung that showed absolutely nothing on the dyno or the racetrack, but the owner would bet his house that he gained 50 hp.

Quote:

The biggest challenge every year appears to be getting the perfect tune for the CPU. After that, everybody--and I mean everybody--seems thrilled. I haven't checked in a while, but I know they were having issues with 2011s last I looked.
That is an issue with pretty much everything. The coding in the PCM changes and it takes time to figure it out.

Quote:

I've heard the whole roots style thing before, but nobody in the market that I'm aware of has approached anywhere near the factory-type performance that Ripp has, regardless of blower style. And while I get it in theory, the fact seems to be that whatever Ripp is doing for all practical purposes appears to substantially overcome the issue. Nobody that actually has one ever seems to complain.
Has anyone actually tried a roots blower? I wouldn't be surprised if a serious attempt at bringing one to market has never been tried because of the expense. With a centrifugal you need a drive system and some brackets to mount it. With a roots you need a new intake manifold or a way to mate it to the stock one. A roots is also a challenge to intercool, but it is doable, and has been done by the OEMs numerous times.

Fact seems to be that Ripp is the only game in town, and it does make improvements, so there really isn't any reason for someone to be unhappy with it. My point remains that there are better ways to build low end torque than with a centrifugal blower.

Here is the quote from Ripp and the things that don't make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIPPMODS (Post 1166535)
Guys - when we approach a community - we are always taken as salesmen - In reality we are is extremly good standing in every JK support forum. Our solution is turn key, safe and effective from low to high RPM...

No issue here. They deliver a product that improves the factory power curve.

Quote:

We over sized the blower and take advantage of the air volume as well as the boost. Our system acts more like a light pressure turbo most of the time, where you use 2-4psi on your normal driving routine and 4-8psi when needed.
The above statement makes no sense. If you are seeing 2-4 psi in the manifold during normal driving you would always be accelerating. In normal driving there will be a vacuum in the manifold unless you are on the throttle. Install a vacuum gauge on your ride, tape it to the windshield and drive around. The only time you would see boost will be when you are showing 0 vacuum. During normal driving that won't be often unless normal for you is foot on the floor or close to it. Will the blower build boost? Yes, but it is prevented from entering the engine by the throttle body. That means you are using engine power to pressurize air that you aren't using. That uses fuel and that decreases economy. I think I remember reading in another Ripp post that they claimed up to 11mpg improvement in economy with their blower. I assure you if that was the case there would be one of their systems on every new Wrangler that rolled off the lot. Adding 11 mpg to a high volume model would do wonders for their CAFE numbers.

Quote:

We have many clients who tow and are very happy with the results we deliver - A positive displacement blower will always blast the engine with boost even when you only want to tip into the throttle for speed control. The centrifugal's natural boost curve is much smoother and therefor predictable off road and gentler on the engine and a whole.
I don't know where this ridiculous statement about a roots blower blasting the engine with boost came from, but it is completely false. If anything it is smoother than a centrifugal. The reasons for this are simple. First of all, a roots blower can't compress air that it can't get. The only air it has available is what the throttle body lets in. The air the TB lets in is regulated by your right foot. Their statement seems to be slamming what could potentially be a competing product when it should say "Your right foot will always blast the engine with boost." If anything, a centrifugal would be more likely to simply slam the engine with boost. If you have your engine at 4000 rpm crawling over something the blower is sitting there doing one of two things: 1. Dumping air through the blowoff valve or 2. Pushing considerable boost against the throttle body. In either case, as soon as the throttle is pushed all that boost finds its way to the engine. The same would be true of a turbo.

Quote:

Stop the video at 1.50sec and see we are nearly doubling the torque at 1300 rpm - compared to stock.

RIPPTECH
I left the video out because it's the same one from above. There is no way to make the statement above based on the chart provided. They started the stock pull at 2400 rpm, so there are no stock numbers at 1300 rpm to compare to. Surely they are able to see that, so why do they base that statement on a graph that doesn't even have the data on it? That makes me either question their statement, or question their ability to interpret the graph. Either of those makes me question whether or not I should spend $5k with them.

oilwell1415 07-23-2011 03:33 PM

I forgot to add that there is a video on youtube of a roots blown JK that has the torque curve at 200 ft-lbs on the way down at around 3000 rpm. If we could compare the two from 1000-2000 rpm the roots would win by a mile.

MTH 07-23-2011 03:49 PM

^^Well said.

I believe Avenger makes a roots style supercharger for the JK. Kenne Bell definitely makes them for the TJ, and may have them for the JK by now as well. Also take a look at Hesco . . . I know they make one for the JK but I can't recall if it's roots or centrifugal. Vortech's is definitely centrifugal as is Ripp's.

I am utterly incompetent to debate any of what you put forth on a knowledge level. You may want to check out some of the prior JK-F posts I mentioned earlier though, as I'd expect that issue got some debate over there. Ripp posts quite a lot more there than here, and they're pretty forthcoming. I recall one guy saying he went to 35s and asking if he should supercharge or regear as he couldn't afford both, and they told him to regear.

One thing I should mention in fairness is that I'm pretty sure Ripp's website claims only that you MAY see about a 2 to 3 mpg increase IF you drive responsibly. I've never heard anybody claim an 11 mpg increase.

JIMBOX 07-23-2011 04:09 PM

:whistling: Evidentaly, you guys never heard of "AVENGER" root blowers for JK/JKU ???

:dance::rofl: JIMBO

MTH 07-23-2011 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTH
I believe Avenger makes a roots style supercharger for the JK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMBOX
Evidentaly, you guys never heard of "AVENGER" root blowers for JK/JKU ???

:whistling:

JIMBOX 07-23-2011 05:19 PM

:flowers:----------------OH--------------------------------


Quote:

Originally Posted by MTH (Post 1403179)
:whistling:

:dance::rofl: JIMBO

MTH 07-23-2011 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMBOX
:flowers:----------------OH--------------------------------

:dance::rofl: JIMBO

In fairness, I had only heard of it from YOU. :D

Mortalis5509 07-23-2011 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rics1997 (Post 1400634)
If you can find 4.56 that would be probably your best choice since your towing w/35" tires. 4.10's may be better on gas but not towing and they are hard gears to get in a quality gear also. You may even have a hard time getting 4.56. If you plan on towing a lot , you may even consider 4.88's which are very common gears in any brand.

When you are looking at the tires on the chart, Remember you need to substract usually 1" for compression. So a 35" tire is actually 34" on the road from the weight of your Jeep compressing the tire.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...tio-chart2.jpg

There is too much in this thread for me to read right now at work, but what I do have to say is be careful when going by the chart. The chart shows rps's in the last gear before over drive. It does not factor in over driver, tire size, weight, lift height, and road conditions. Thats all. GL

MTH 07-23-2011 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mortalis5509

There is too much in this thread for me to read right now at work, but what I do have to say is be careful when going by the chart. The chart shows rps's in the last gear before over drive. It does not factor in over driver, tire size, weight, lift height, and road conditions. Thats all. GL

Nope. That chart is JK-specific and factors in overdrive. It's spot on for RPMs. :thumb:

kkroft 07-24-2011 10:18 AM

Thanks Mike. I will use the JKU for future reference. Yes, I will have to decide between the 4.10s and 4.56s. I would like to find someone on the forum who has the RIPP installed with a 6 spd. I am leaning towards the 4.10s, as I will only tow a couple times a year (get the boat out of storage and to the lift, and back again at the end of summer). I will call RIPP again before my final decision.

kkroft 07-24-2011 10:20 AM

That chart was a good reference. Thanks!

desertgoose 07-24-2011 03:28 PM

Just relaxing here and watched Saturdays episode of Xtreme 4x4. They had a dyno comparison between a hemi swap and ripp supercharger.
Hemi swap cost $21k for 214 hp and 251 torque at the wheels.
Ripp cost $6k for 223hp and 227 torque.
Didn't hear any thing about gear ratios. Both were JKU's with 37" tires and auto trans.

InvertChaos 07-24-2011 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desertgoose
Just relaxing here and watched Saturdays episode of Xtreme 4x4. They had a dyno comparison between a hemi swap and ripp supercharger.
Hemi swap cost $21k for 214 hp and 251 torque at the wheels.
Ripp cost $6k for 223hp and 227 torque.
Didn't hear any thing about gear ratios. Both were JKU's with 37" tires and auto trans.

How is there only 214hp from the hemi? My brothers ram is pushing 400...

desertgoose 07-24-2011 03:33 PM

With those numbers I'm sure the supercharger will be a blast with the 6spd. As long as the clutch lasts with the added power.


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