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-   -   Does your 2012 leak? (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/does-your-2012-leak-106184.html)

jz68 08-06-2011 01:36 PM

Does your 2012 leak?
 
Please say no, please say no, please say no.:hide:

InfernoGirl 08-06-2011 01:39 PM

They all leak at some point. They are convertibles.

jz68 08-06-2011 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernoGirl (Post 1445270)
They all leak at some point. They are convertibles.

I have friends with rag top cars and one with a retractable hard top. I've also owned a vehicle with T tops. I've never seen any of them leak.

Using the excuse that "it's a Jeep" or "they all leak" is not a valid argument. Jeeps have problems with leaks because of a poor design and nothing else. My hope is that they've made some improvements for 2012.

jk'n 08-07-2011 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernoGirl
They all leak at some point. They are convertibles.

I'm with IG on this one. Wranglers have a long history of leaking. If it doesn't leak when new, then it is only a matter time and lack of maintenance before it develops one. For an owner who is going to fixate on this, a jeep would be a poor choice of vehicle. A vehicle with a solid top would be a more appropriate choice.

jz68 08-07-2011 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jk'n (Post 1448143)
I'm with IG on this one. Wranglers have a long history of leaking. If it doesn't leak when new, then it is only a matter time and lack of maintenance before it develops one. For an owner who is going to fixate on this, a jeep would be a poor choice of vehicle. A vehicle with a solid top would be a more appropriate choice.

Fixate on a 30k+ vehicle leaking? You're damn right I will. My current vehicle has a sunroof that has been opened and closed thousands of times over the past few years and hasn't leaked. Why should a couple of panels be so difficult for Jeep engineers?

daggo66 08-07-2011 04:33 PM

Let's rephrase this a bit. A Jeep is not a convertible. It is an open top vehicle. If there is something wrong with the way the header is attached to the top, or the seals on the door surrounds, it will leak. That being said, it's nothing that can't be adjusted.

kjeeper10 08-07-2011 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernoGirl
They all leak at some point. They are convertibles.

x4

I don't know of a jeep owner that at one point, left his/her top down overnight and it got blasted with a rain shower :)

Once that happens- leaks are forgot about :thumb:

rics1997 08-07-2011 06:58 PM

I have to agree with the fact this isn't a true convertible nor is the Freedom tops a sunroof. The fact that the user has to manually remove and put the freedom top on means they may not be seated correctly. It is hard to sit these tops on perfectly especially when you lift your Jeep and have to step up just to get it on. It is easy to pinch a gasket. Then you have a Jeep with removable doors and no solid framing for the soft top.

To me they could make a better door surround but I have nothing to do with design but seen how they can be pulled on by the top. Might talk to Bestop about that since they make it. But then too they don't seem to have much care about their customers anyways from my experience with getting a top from them. But again it isn't the same as a convertible car where there is a support system in place and most are pretty much done electrically with very little user participation.

Could they make a better design? Probably. Can you compare it to a convertible car or sunroof? No way, it just isn't the same.

MTH 08-07-2011 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz68
I have friends with rag top cars and one with a retractable hard top. I've also owned a vehicle with T tops. I've never seen any of them leak.

Using the excuse that "it's a Jeep" or "they all leak" is not a valid argument. Jeeps have problems with leaks because of a poor design and nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz68

Fixate on a 30k+ vehicle leaking? You're damn right I will. My current vehicle has a sunroof that has been opened and closed thousands of times over the past few years and hasn't leaked. Why should a couple of panels be so difficult for Jeep engineers?

All of your comparisons are inapplicable. There are a lot of significant differences between typical convertibles, t-tops, and sunroofs and a wrangler. Key issues in the design of Jeep tops include:

-Two tops that must fit, seal equally well, and be functional year round in all climates.
-Soft top must easily fold back to halfway point (sunrider), be able to fully fold back, and offer fully removable windows.
-Hard top must have easily removable front panels and offer rear window defrost/wiper.
-2 and 4 door versions.
-Effective sound dampening.
-Lightweight.
-Removable at home by the average consumer.
-Must sit on top of removable doors.
-Must sit on top of foldable windshield.
-Must sit on top of both half doors and full steel doors.
-Must have no permanent mounting points.
-Must have no motorized components to assist in opening, closing, or latching.
-Retail price of less than $2k each.

Did I miss anything? Can you identify one other vehicle on the market that even attempts such a challenge? Do you really think the fact that your motorized sunroof doesn't leak presents anything like the same issues?

Sometimes they leak. Most of the time they don't, or if they do it's very small. When a leak is large it's usually readily fixable. Even small leaks are almost always fixable presuming you can find the source. It's oftentimes user error, worn seals, or warped/bent pieces.

In my view, the JK tops are a pretty big accomplishment, not a failure. They certainly aren't poorly designed.

People with 2012s are going to have leaks, just like every single wrangler that came before.

If your position is that--notwithstanding the above issues--any leak at any time is going to be utterly intolerable, then a wrangler is not for you.

Gaducker 08-07-2011 07:49 PM

My 08 rubicon leaked like crazy today, it rained all day and, well the carpets wet. When we are driving in the rain it wont leak or if its parked pointing down hill it wont leak. But I forgot and left her pointed up hill and it DID leak. I told my wife You wanted a new jeep and its something you have to deal with.

flharleycop 08-07-2011 08:00 PM

I have an 11 and in S Florida we get really heavy rains for long periods this time of year. So far no leaks!

jz68 08-07-2011 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTH (Post 1448614)
All of your comparisons are inapplicable. There are a lot of significant differences between typical convertibles, t-tops, and sunroofs and a wrangler. Key issues in the design of Jeep tops include:

-Two tops that must fit, seal equally well, and be functional year round in all climates.
-Soft top must easily fold back to halfway point (sunrider), be able to fully fold back, and offer fully removable windows.
-Hard top must have easily removable front panels and offer rear window defrost/wiper.
-2 and 4 door versions.
-Effective sound dampening.
-Lightweight.
-Removable at home by the average consumer.
-Must sit on top of removable doors.
-Must sit on top of foldable windshield.
-Must sit on top of both half doors and full steel doors.
-Must have no permanent mounting points.
-Must have no motorized components to assist in opening, closing, or latching.
-Retail price of less than $2k each.

Did I miss anything? Can you identify one other vehicle on the market that even attempts such a challenge? Do you really think the fact that your motorized sunroof doesn't leak presents anything like the same issues?

Sometimes they leak. Most of the time they don't, or if they do it's very small. When a leak is large it's usually readily fixable. Even small leaks are almost always fixable presuming you can find the source. It's oftentimes user error, worn seals, or warped/bent pieces.

In my view, the JK tops are a pretty big accomplishment, not a failure. They certainly aren't poorly designed.

People with 2012s are going to have leaks, just like every single wrangler that came before.

If your position is that--notwithstanding the above issues--any leak at any time is going to be utterly intolerable, then a wrangler is not for you.


You just spent a whole lot of time making not a lot of sense. Convertibles, T tops and retractable hard tops all face similar challenges and manage to do it without the frequent problems you find on the Wrangler.

JK Simon 08-07-2011 08:08 PM

Don't feed the trolls, folks -- this one seems fixated on *wanting* to hate jeeps...in a jeep forum. Classy.

MTH 08-07-2011 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz68

There's no damn difference between a Jeep soft top and that on a convertible.

There's no damn difference between a freedom top and a T top.

If you guys want to justify why you're vehicle has shoddy build quality, that's fine. I won't.

Which convertible or t-top has removable doors? Half doors? Foldable windshield? Interchangeable tops? 2 and 4 door versions? No permanent anchors?

You really think those are just non-issues? :crazy:

MTH 08-07-2011 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz68

You just spent a whole lot of time making not a lot of sense. Convertibles, T tops and retractable hard tops all face similar challenges and manage to do it without the frequent problems you find on the Wrangler.

The wrangler faces all the issues they do, and then many more. Needing to work with both half doors and full doors for example is a big deal that no t-top deals with. Same with interchangeable factory tops. Same with a foldable windshield. Etc.

What I said makes a lot of sense. You just don't want to hear it.

MTH 08-07-2011 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaducker
My 08 rubicon leaked like crazy today, it rained all day and, well the carpets wet. When we are driving in the rain it wont leak or if its parked pointing down hill it wont leak. But I forgot and left her pointed up hill and it DID leak. I told my wife You wanted a new jeep and its something you have to deal with.

That can and should be fixed. Leaks happen eventually, but they don't need to just be lived with forever. Some new weatherstripping, a new header bar, or some such thing is probably in order.

jz68 08-07-2011 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTH (Post 1448670)
Which convertible or t-top has removable doors? Half doors? Foldable windshield? Interchangeable tops? 2 and 4 door versions? No permanent anchors?

You really think those are just non-issues? :crazy:

What does removable doors have to do with the top leaking? Whether it's a convertible car or a Jeep, the top has to come down and seal against the door or window without allowing water in. A folding windshield, same thing. No matter the vehicle, the top has to securely fit against the top edge of the windshield.

2 or 4 door?????? Anchors????? Are you even paying attention to the arguments you're making or just flinging crap at the walls hoping something sticks? :banghead:

jz68 08-07-2011 08:24 PM

I posted this thread to ask a question. If you can't answer it, why are you even here? :wavey:

JK Simon 08-07-2011 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz68 (Post 1448723)
I posted this thread to ask a question. If you can't answer it, why are you even here? :wavey:

No, you posted this thread to insult others and to try to prove some point that you seem to believe.

If you posted this thread to ask a question, you'd be listening to the answers others are giving you.

jz68 08-07-2011 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK Simon (Post 1448729)
No, you posted this thread to insult others and to try to prove some point that you seem to believe.

If you posted this thread to ask a question, you'd be listening to the answers others are giving you.

Nobody has answered my question. Can you? Oh wait, you're just here to give me a hard time for having an opinion that isn't "OMG the Wrangler is awesome!!!!!"

How about everybody stay the hell out of here unless you can answer my question.

kjeeper10 08-07-2011 08:31 PM

you all have points. I would be upset if I spent 30+ on my FIRST new jeep and it leaked. BUT I've had jeeps for years and used to it. Jeep is targeting a different bunch these days. Some of these jeeps are never going to see dirt. Take a look under the carpet- there are drain plugs. My new to me 07 doesn't leak (yet) but I'm sure it will. And I will someday leave the top down-pop those drain plugs and call it a day. It's a jeep so get used to it :)

jz68 08-07-2011 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK Simon (Post 1448666)
Don't feed the trolls, folks -- this one seems fixated on *wanting* to hate jeeps...in a jeep forum. Classy.

Yep, I'm clearly the one insulting people.

Mykll 08-07-2011 08:38 PM

For 5 years my VW Thing never leaked after getting new soft top and windows. It only finally leaked after I accidentally put my thumb through the rear window one winter.

But then, it only comes with half doors, so guess this doesn't count?

kjeeper10 08-07-2011 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz68

Yep, I'm clearly the one insulting people.

I did not take it like you were :)

MTH 08-07-2011 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz68

What does removable doors have to do with the top leaking? Whether it's a convertible car or a Jeep, the top has to come down and seal against the door or window without allowing water in. A folding windshield, same thing. No matter the vehicle, the top has to securely fit against the top edge of the windshield.

2 or 4 door?????? Anchors????? Are you even paying attention to the arguments you're making or just flinging crap at the walls hoping something sticks? :banghead:

So the fact that a jeep top just has to "seal" and "securely fit" against at least four permutations of doors (2 and 4 door soft, 2 and 4 door hard) is irrelevant, even though that's not true for the other vehicles you're comparing it against?

The fact that jeep tops are often removed or installed entirely at home by the consumer rather than being permanently fixed to the vehicle from the factory is likewise irrelevant?

You also find it irrelevant that modern convertible tops are generally raised and lowered by motors that are located in conjunction with the overall top design rather than by some newb standing on his rear tire?

These are legitimate distinctions that present legitimate design challenges over and above "ordinary" convertibles, t-tops, and sunroofs. And let's not forget the price point. Look into what it costs to get a new top put on a Beamer.

There's no need to be a d*ck just because you want to insist these issues don't exist.

MTH 08-07-2011 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykll
For 5 years my VW Thing never leaked after getting new soft top and windows. It only finally leaked after I accidentally put my thumb through the rear window one winter.

But then, it only comes with half doors, so guess this doesn't count?

No. That's good. Many jeeps don't leak for years too. There are plenty of 07 JKs out there that haven't yet leaked. The point is that it happens eventually. Hell, tops need to be replaced entirely eventually.

MTH 08-07-2011 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz68

Nobody has answered my question. Can you? Oh wait, you're just here to give me a hard time for having an opinion that isn't "OMG the Wrangler is awesome!!!!!"

How about everybody stay the hell out of here unless you can answer my question.

Your question has been answered. Some 2012s are going to have leaks sooner, some later, some may hold out for years, many leaks will be the result of user error, some will be errors from the factory or the dealer, some leaks will be easily fixed, others won't. That's the answer.

jz68 08-07-2011 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTH (Post 1448830)
So the fact that a jeep top just has to "seal" and "securely fit" against at least four permutations of doors (2 and 4 door soft, 2 and 4 door hard) is irrelevant, even though that's not true for the other vehicles you're comparing it against?

The fact that jeep tops are often removed or installed entirely at home by the consumer rather than being permanently fixed to the vehicle from the factory is likewise irrelevant?

You also find it irrelevant that modern convertible tops are generally raised and lowered by motors that are located in conjunction with the overall top design rather than by some newb standing on his rear tire?

These are legitimate distinctions that present legitimate design challenges over and above "ordinary" convertibles, t-tops, and sunroofs. And let's not forget the price point. Look into what it costs to get a new top put on a Beamer.

There's no need to be a d*ck just because you want to insist these issues don't exist.

You're making excuses for a poor design and what's worse, you're making excuses that don't even make sense. No sense in discussing this any further, I'll just wait until somebody with a 2012 posts their findings.

Feel free to continue with the name calling and insults, the thread is yours. :thumb:

Mykll 08-07-2011 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTH (Post 1448837)
No. That's good. Many jeeps don't leak for years too. There are plenty of 07 JKs out there that haven't yet leaked. The point is that it happens eventually. Hell, tops need to be replaced entirely eventually.

Yeah understand that. After 11 years baking in the Texas sun (and lack of a garage, cover, and other preventative maintenance) cause the top to tighten up and eventually the curve of the frame started to poke through.

I am hoping on my Jeep it doesn't leak. Ever. With preventative care and properly putting on the freedom panels. I am hoping if it ever does it is because of something I did, or didn't do, and not because of design flaws.

mudpup 08-07-2011 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz68 (Post 1445307)
Using the excuse that "it's a Jeep" or "they all leak" is not a valid argument. Jeeps have problems with leaks because of a poor design and nothing else. My hope is that they've made some improvements for 2012.

That is what everyone is trying to tell you...no argument or excuse but reality!

If this is going to rock your world finding the passenger floor soaked - time to look elsewhere. As stated before no 2 Jeeps are the same...did Jeep change the seals for '12 ...doubtful.
You are worried about the Freedom or soft top leaks and will probably end up with a door hinge that is off angle...Oh the humanity :rolleyes:

And with record sales in July I don't think Chrysler is worried about losing your business. :wavey:

Toledo-made Wrangler sees sales record


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