Jeep Wrangler Forum

Jeep Wrangler Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/)
-   JK General Discussion Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/)
-   -   JK Clearance Seems Deceptive (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/jk-clearance-seems-deceptive-125858.html)

RedRubi2012 12-03-2011 11:18 PM

JK Clearance Seems Deceptive
 
Hey all,

When looking at a stock 2D JK rubicon sitting next to a stock TJ rubicon it appears as though the ground clearance to the frame rails and to the transfer case skid was less on the JK, is this true or are my eyes deceiving me? I have seen some images floating around the interwebs that compare angles but none seem to give hard measurements from the ground. Ground clearance specs. that I could find only give numbers for "Min. ground clearance" which would be to the differential housing.

Does anyone have any actual measurements taken on level ground for clearance from the ground to a frame rail and ground to the transfer case skid for both a stock JK and a stock TJ preferrably with the same sized tires?

Thanks,
Shawn

rics1997 12-04-2011 12:03 AM

Found these online. Referrence from Rockcrawler.com

http://www.rockcrawler.com/reviews/j...ensions/jk.jpg

http://www.rockcrawler.com/reviews/j...ensions/tj.jpg

http://www.rockcrawler.com/reviews/j..._unlimited.jpg

http://www.rockcrawler.com/reviews/j..._unlimited.jpg

http://images.jpmagazine.com/project...dyno_chart.jpg

JK

Clearances P225/75R16 P245/75R16 P255/75R17 P255/70R18 LT255/75R17
Approach Angle Degree 40.8 42.0 43.8 44.6 44.3
Breakover Angle Degree 21.8 23.1 24.9 25.5 25.4
Departure Angle Degree 37.4 38.7 40.3 40.6 40.4
Front Axle to Ground (inches) 9.1 9.6 10.3 10.6 10.5
Rear Axle to Ground (inches) 8.8 9.4 10.1 10.3 10.2


TJ:

Wheelbase = 93.4"
Overall length = 155.4"
Overall width = 66.7"
Overall height (soft top) = 70.8"
Track width = 57.8 - 58.5"
Turning diameter = 33.5'-36'
Curb weight = 3,092-3,832 lbs

Cargo capacity = 55.7 cu ft.
Fuel capacity = 15 - 19 gal (19 gal became standard during the 99 model year)
Towing capacity = 1,000 lbs 4cyl / 2,000 lbs 6 cyl

Ground clearance (at axle) = 8.7"-9.2" front / 8.6"-9.1" rear

Approach angle = 42.2*
Departure angle = 31.5*
Breakover angle = 22.3*

RedRubi2012 12-04-2011 01:48 AM

@Rics1997 - Thanks for the reply but I have already seen this and it was what I was referring to in the original post. All this tells you is approach, departure, breakover angle and distance from the ground to the differential housing.

I want a distance measurement from the ground to the bottom of a frame rail or to the bottom of the transfer case skid on a TJ and JK

Siren Assassin 12-04-2011 03:19 AM

I don't think you can really call what you're talking about as "ground clearance"... It's just more of the distance from a fixed point to the ground.

If its really relevant, just go to a jeep dealer with a tape and measure it. It would be easy enough to do so. :)

RedRubi2012 12-04-2011 03:53 AM

The very definition of ground clearance is the amount of distance from the ground to the vehicles chassis. In this case I don't really care about the distance to the bottom of the differential housing which is normally reported for the ground clearance value but rather the frame and more specifically the transfer case skid because on the JK it seems to be quite low and more vulnerable to trail damage and hanging the vehicle up when "breaking over" an obstacle as compared to a TJ or YJ or CJ for that matter.

Basically does the frame on a JK sit lower than the heritage models TJ, YJ, CJ in stock trim?

strider_mt2k 12-04-2011 05:25 AM

The only thing that I see Jeeps get bogged down in around here is...semantics.

That can be measured in this thread.

joe002 12-04-2011 09:58 AM

The breakover angles have nothing to do with the differentials, but where you are going to hit on the belly of the Jeep when you are breaking over a hill. The better the angle the higher the slope you can make without scraping under your Jeep.

The differential is only taken into consideration for the axle to ground clearances.

RoobyRoo 12-04-2011 10:35 AM

My stock 2012 JK Rubi is just under 10 inches of clearance at the diff.

kjeeper10 12-04-2011 10:46 AM

Consider tire sizes?

Forget this, you already are :redface:

RedRubi2012 12-04-2011 10:55 PM

@Joe - You are restating the obvious...I never said breakover angles had anything to do with the differential housing. What I did say is that the value typically reported by manufacturers for vehicle ground clearance is the distance from the ground to the bottom of the differential housing because that is typically the minimum clearance value.

When I was talking about "breaking over" an obstacle I meant something like a rock not a hill....for example if the frame rails are located lower relative to the axles then by crawling over a rock you have a better chance of smacking the rock with your frame when your wheel comes down off of it and the same with the transfer case.

Obviously I am aware that the breakover angle combined with the belly clearance contributes to how "steep" of a hill you can drive over without getting hung up, but I am more concerned with the height of obstacles I can drive over without hitting my chassis.

Can anyone here provide me these distance measurements?

Thanks,
Shawn

daggo66 12-04-2011 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRubi2012 (Post 1796811)
Hey all,

When looking at a stock 2D JK rubicon sitting next to a stock TJ rubicon it appears as though the ground clearance to the frame rails and to the transfer case skid was less on the JK, is this true or are my eyes deceiving me? I have seen some images floating around the interwebs that compare angles but none seem to give hard measurements from the ground. Ground clearance specs. that I could find only give numbers for "Min. ground clearance" which would be to the differential housing.

Does anyone have any actual measurements taken on level ground for clearance from the ground to a frame rail and ground to the transfer case skid for both a stock JK and a stock TJ preferrably with the same sized tires?

Thanks,
Shawn

It's most likely that your eyes are indeed deceiving you. You can't compare a "stock" JK and a "stock" TJ with the "same sized tires" because stock TJ's have smaller tires than stock JK's. Let's try some logic. JK and TJ Rubicons both have D44 axles. The JK has more clearance under the differential. That tells me the frame rails on the JK will not have less clearance, especially with 1/2" more tire clearance (32" vs. 31").

joe002 12-04-2011 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daggo66 (Post 1799812)
It's most likely that your eyes are indeed deceiving you. You can't compare a "stock" JK and a "stock" TJ with the "same sized tires" because stock TJ's have smaller tires than stock JK's. Let's try some logic. JK and TJ Rubicons both have D44 axles. The JK has more clearance under the differential. That tells me the frame rails on the JK will not have less clearance, especially with 1/2" more tire clearance (32" vs. 31").

Logic does not belong in this thread. :rolleyes:

daggo66 12-04-2011 11:09 PM

:facepalm: :rofl:

i82much 12-04-2011 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daggo66 (Post 1799812)
It's most likely that your eyes are indeed deceiving you. You can't compare a "stock" JK and a "stock" TJ with the "same sized tires" because stock TJ's have smaller tires than stock JK's. Let's try some logic. JK and TJ Rubicons both have D44 axles. The JK has more clearance under the differential. That tells me the frame rails on the JK will not have less clearance, especially with 1/2" more tire clearance (32" vs. 31").

I think your conclusion is probably right, but I don't know about that logic. The frame rails can drop down pretty far, look at a GM HD truck and compare to a Ford or Dodge. That is a function of the IFS, of course, but I think it illustrates the general point that frame rail height is not *necessarily* proportional to diff clearance.

RedRubi2012 12-05-2011 12:30 AM

@ daggo - The clearance under the differential housing is a function of the tire diameter and the diameter of the housing itself. It has NOTHING to do with the relationship of the frame to the ground which is what I am talking about.

The axles as long as the tires are touching the ground have an obvious fixed distance from it based on the parameters I mentioned but the relationship of the frame to the ground is based on the length of the suspension springs. If you have a longer or shorter spring you will either move the frame further or closer to the ground respectively. Its the whole premise behind the idea of a "lift kit" as we are all so familiar with.

The JK is able to fit bigger tires under it in stock configuration because the shape of the body is different from the TJ....it is slightly taller with bigger wheel well openings...this fact has nothing to do with the relative position of the frame. In fact the manufacturers have used this "illusion" on many vehicles to give them the appearance of clearance when in fact they had actually lowered the frame with respect to the axles to give a lower center of gravity and better on road characteristics...take the new gen Ford F150 for example as compared to older ones. There is not as much frame clearance but it looks really tall due to the fact that the body was made higher and the "beltline" raised.

Since I can't seem to get measurements I am not sure whether or not the frame is actually lower with respect to the axles although from a glance this is what it seems like. I suspect that what happened was that the JK frame was made lower for twofold reasons...One of which to lower the angle of the control arms (the slightly longer wheelbase also helped with this) and the other to lower the center of gravity both of which gives it the better onroad handling characteristics along with the wider track.

The new body (and frame but the general shape didnt change much) which allowed for fitment of bigger tires (32" vs. 31") increased the "reported" min. clearance value to 10" or whatever it is but that doesnt tell the whole story because the fact is if I am going over most obstacles like a large rock or a log I will put my tire on the obstacle and the 10" min clearance wont come into play because as long as the tire is in contact with the rock/log (assuming its relatively evenly shaped and near the edge of the rock) the 10" will be maintained from it (This is obviously not the case with driving down a rutted trail where the axles will actually get hung up first). Now when I drop off that rock lets say from my pass. side tire the distance from the frame to the ground will come into play as to whether or not I will impact the frame rail or not.

So even though you might have gained .5" clearance from the 32" tire vs. the 31" tire the "belly" of the jeep might be lower and thats my concern.

I know that rubi tires are different sizes from JK to TJ...if someone can provide frame/skid measurements then its easy enough to take into account the different tire sizes (basically subtract .5" from the JK to get the same measurement on the TJ).

But again this doesnt have to be limited to rubicons....it could be X, Sport, Sahara whatever.

Thanks,
Shawn

Siren Assassin 12-05-2011 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRubi2012

if someone can provide frame/skid measurements

Why can't you just go to a dealership and measure it yourself? Or maybe call Chrysler and ask them?

It's pretty obvious by now that actually just doing that is probably the best way to get the answer you seek...

Happy measuring!! :rofl:

RedRubi2012 12-05-2011 01:43 AM

Because I dont have a dealership very near to me and furthermore there is no good way to approach the situation. I would probably at the least get some odd looks at the dealership or possibly get asked to leave if I wasn't looking to buy something.

I thought about going down there at night but that might be worse...what if someone saw me creeping around a Jeep at night? They may figure I am trying to sabatage the thing, or steal something from it. I don't need to go to jail to find this out.

I figured it would be much simpler for someone on this "Jeep" forum who has a JK and TJ sitting in their driveway to put a tape to the dang thing and settle it.

Thanks,
Shawn

Siren Assassin 12-05-2011 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRubi2012
Because I dont have a dealership very near to me and furthermore there is no good way to approach the situation. I would probably at the least get some odd looks at the dealership or possibly get asked to leave if I wasn't looking to buy something.

I thought about going down there at night but that might be worse...what if someone saw me creeping around a Jeep at night? They may figure I am trying to sabatage the thing, or steal something from it. I don't need to go to jail to find this out.

I figured it would be much simpler for someone on this "Jeep" forum who has a JK and TJ sitting in their driveway to put a tape to the dang thing and settle it.

Thanks,
Shawn

Why would you go to jail for measuring? What law does that fall under? Last I checked, you can't get sent to jail for far fetched assumptions.
Why would you have to go at night? Why not just go there and ask a salesman what you're trying to figure out and he will probably help you.
And if a dealership is too far... Have you tried calling Chrysler?

And yes this is a jeep forum... But owning two completely stock Jeeps being a JK and a TJ... I don't see that being all that common. If I had a TJ and a JK, one would be modded at least with tires.

Why do you need this info anyways? If its more solid than to just tickle your fancy, I'll go to a jeep dealership and just measure them for you when I'm there for my jeep club monthly meeting this week. But if its "just because", then no, I probably won't do it.

ClayL 12-05-2011 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren Assassin

Why would you go to jail for measuring? What law does that fall under? Last I checked, you can't get sent to jail for far fetched assumptions.
Why would you have to go at night? Why not just go there and ask a salesman what you're trying to figure out and he will probably help you.
And if a dealership is too far... Have you tried calling Chrysler?

And yes this is a jeep forum... But owning two completely stock Jeeps being a JK and a TJ... I don't see that being all that common. If I had a TJ and a JK, one would be modded at least with tires.

Why do you need this info anyways? If its more solid than to just tickle your fancy, I'll go to a jeep dealership and just measure them for you when I'm there for my jeep club monthly meeting this week. But if its "just because", then no, I probably won't do it.

I'm staring to think troll. Any "normal" person would have called and got the measurements. Just saying, I think im like the only one on the forum with a stock vehicle, but mines a yj and I do have the biggest tires on it that I can fit

RedRubi2012 12-05-2011 03:18 AM

@Siren - First off my assumption is not far fetched just because you dont care about the topic. I can't believe I am catching all this flak because I ask a question about jeeps on a jeep forum. I am sorry that I insighted controversy over a simple matter that I had wished to find the answer to in the easiest fashion. I didnt want to go to a dealership and put up with all the salesman bullcrap and waste a half a day while they try to sell me a jeep just so I can get a couple measurements. This is why I would want to go at night...so I dont have to go in and talk to a salesman or anyone else that works at the dealership. It would take me 5 mins to take these measurements assuming they had a TJ and a JK sitting there if I didn't have to deal with anyone, but it would look pretty suspicious to creep around there at night possibly insighting someone to call the cops which is where the possibility of jail came from. But I can see that I have already wasted hours on this forum when it probably would have been easier to do as you suggested. I have not called Chrysler because the "customer service" people typically are not technically oriented and it would probably take much effort to get through to someone who actually knows what they are talking about. They couldn't even tell me the correct ship date for my Wrangler let alone specifications that are not normally listed in the owners manual or on build sheet or anywhere else on the internet from what I have found since searching for this for a couple days.

@Clay - Per Wikipedia "troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response". I'm sorry that you and siren are getting emotional over my question but thats your problem. The posting of this question is relevant to the intent of this forum and to the engineering specifications of the Jeep JK and since I am just about to recieve a new one, questions such as this are not extraneous to me and probably not to other people with stock vehicles. Funny but a comment like "I am the only one on the forum with a stock vehicle" seems like more of a loaded question to get an emotional response from me.

I don't have to install a lift kit or otherwise modify my Jeep vehicle to make me as important or relevant of a die hard Jeep enthusiast as yourselves or anyone else on this forum. And I take offense that you would just dismiss my question and try to single me out. If you don't like the question then don't respond to it.

Thanks,
Shawn

Siren Assassin 12-05-2011 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRubi2012
@Siren - First off my assumption is not far fetched...

I was speaking of when you said they (dealership) would think you're sabotaging their jeeps. No one goes to jail because they assume you wanted to commit a crime they made up in their head.

I quoted only to that point of your post cause that was where I stooped reading. I don't have the time to correct all the incorrect interpretations you make off my posts. It will more or less just annoy me in the end.

Call Chrysler or go to a dealership and find out the info you seek. And with that, I'm no longer playing your hair splitting and nit picking games. You know how to get your answers... Either you will or you will not and continue to post more round about comments.

Good luck with your measuring or call to Chrysler.
Happy Jeeping. :thumb:

strider_mt2k 12-05-2011 03:35 AM

Another method of trolling is also feigning ignorance to the point of being extreme.

If you aren't' comfortable talking to someone at a dealership and you can't accept the answers given to you on what is arguably the most friendly and knowledgeable forum regarding the subject of Jeep Wranglers, then I'm afraid the blame lies squarely on your shoulders, not on the people trying to help you.

edit

Honestly, some topics on here get so silly that I have to wonder if the forum pays people to post troll threads in order to keep the click rate on the site at some high level. I can't believe that humans can sustain thought processes like this.

RedRubi2012 12-05-2011 03:52 AM

Ha "feigning ignorance"....again like I said before if you don't know the answer to the question or don't have the resources to answer it then just simply don't post a response. Problem solved.

"can't accept the answers given to you on what is arguably the most friendly and knowledgeable forum regarding the subject of Jeep Wranglers."

You show me where on this thread that my question was answered? Rather it has gotten off topic and turned into an outlet for 3 obviously neurotic adolescents that cannot come to terms with the fact that some people may think differently than them.

I appreciate the people that have actually "tried to help" me like rics1997 even though he didn't provide the information that I was looking for, not those that question my intentions, or tell me to "go to the dealership" or call "Chrysler". If thats the typical response to obscure questions then the forum has no purpose. The fact is that there is someone on this forum that could answer my question as soon as they read this post and that is the response I am waiting for...so please do not respond if you are going to just stir up more drama.

Thanks,
Shawn

strider_mt2k 12-05-2011 04:04 AM

You have received all the information that sane and rational people can provide.

Your criteria are too specific for anyone but yourself to obtain the answers, and yet you are unwilling to take the steps necessary to obtain this information, nor have you adequately given a reason as to why this piece of minutiae is so critical to you.

Seriously, it's time for someone to tell you that you are being silly.

You are being silly.

RedRubi2012 12-05-2011 04:31 AM

Look I am not trying to "troll" or otherwise cause conflict, but I cannot believe that you would actually think that what I am asking for is out of the realm of "sane and rational" people or "your criteria are too specific for anyone but yourself to obtain." Basically what that says to me is that "sane and rational" people do not own stock wranglers or dont know how to use a tape measure.

Since I have not recieved my JK yet I cannot go outside and measure it myself (trust me if I don't get this question answered by then I will be measuring it myself)...nor do I have ready access to a TJ or YJ or CJ for comparison. I don't think I need to reiterate why I don't want to go to a dealership or call Chrysler, but its unfathomable to me that you think my "unwillingness" to do this dismisses the validity of the original question or someone elses ease of being able to answer it when they see the post.

I find it hard to believe that nobody on this forum is in the least interested in whether or not the JK version of the wrangler was "lowered" for better onroad manners at the expense of clearance. It seems to me that I can find all kinds of information of the YJ frame and chassis being lowered compared to the CJ but for some reason I can find nothing about the JK as compared to past models. This in and of itself is part of the reason why this question is so intriguing to me.

Since when do I need to "adequately give a reason" why this is important to me? Whats more interesting is why the heck you care so much about me and what I want the information for. Truthfully...I don't have some mindblowing life changing reason to give you...I simply just find things like this interesting and notable. Its a parameter that highlights the intent of the vehicle and gives an important indication of "where Jeep has been and where its going" sort of thing. Plus it will give me a better idea of how big of rocks or logs I can traverse in my new vehicle as compared to what new vehicle owners in 2006 could do. Im sorry if I disappointed you, but thats it and if thats silly to you I am ok with that.

Thanks,
Shawn

kjeeper10 12-05-2011 04:31 AM

Simple question why all the nonsense?

Op you are asking in a Jk forum. Post the question in the Tj area. There are a few that have both but there not answering.
Listen ... I have a friend at work that has a Tj.
Considering tire size, most Jk's have 32's I hardly see a Jk with the smaller tires-what 30's?
Anyhow, he has 30's I believe-all stock.
I can measure for you an put this to rest.
Doubt I can get a pic, but can try.

Happy? :thumb:

Edit: and just to point this out, I actually thought is was a good question. My Tj had a 2" BB on 31's. Looking at My Jk one day
I did think it looked like it had less clearance or lower than I would have thought and it's stock.

RedRubi2012 12-05-2011 04:54 AM

I agree that this thread has gotten carried away...but I was simply defending my position and good name in the face of a full frontal attack. I was innocently looking for information but I admit that I got emotional in response to these people questioning my intentions. I appologize to the forum for this, and will try not to perpetuate offtopic posts in the future.

"post the question in the TJ forum" After all of the drama I ran into here I am ready to wash my hands of this topic let alone post it again in another area.

Anyways thank you kjeeper, that would great if you can get some numbers on the TJ and im sure there has to be another JK'er that can easily provide a stock measurement.

Thanks,
Shawn

kjeeper10 12-05-2011 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRubi2012
I agree that this thread has gotten carried away...but I was simply defending my position and good name in the face of a full frontal attack. I was innocently looking for information but I admit that I got emotional in response to these people questioning my intentions. I appologize to the forum for this, and will try not to perpetuate offtopic posts in the future.

"post the question in the TJ forum" After all of the drama I ran into here I am ready to wash my hands of this topic let alone post it again in another area.

Anyways thank you kjeeper, that would great if you can get some numbers on the TJ and im sure there has to be another JK'er that can easily provide a stock measurement.

Thanks,
Shawn

I have a stock Jk :confused: you may have to add/subtract do to actual tire size.

Where exactly you want the measurement?

RedRubi2012 12-05-2011 05:46 AM

That will work...with the jeep sitting level I would like the measurement from the ground to the bottom surface of a frame rail and then also to the bottom surface of the lowest skidplate preferrably close to the center of the wheelbase if you can. I'm not sure if the transfer case or the gas tank skid is lower but you should be able to tell when you are down there. Also, see if you could get a measurement of actual tire diameter on both vehicles because they may not measure exactly to the nominal dimensions. I really appreciate the help!

Thanks,
Shawn

kjeeper10 12-05-2011 06:08 AM

Ok. Usually tires are 1"+ smaller I believe.

Give me a few. Worst case is lunch 11:50
most likely break time @ 8:40.
Or if the boss isn't around, sooner :)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19 AM.