Jeep Wrangler Forum

Jeep Wrangler Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/)
-   TJ General Discussion Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/)
-   -   Inner axle sleeve for Dana 30 on 35s - Is it enough? (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/inner-axle-sleeve-for-dana-30-on-35s-is-it-enough-138075.html)

MikalCarbine 02-07-2012 08:02 AM

Inner axle sleeve for Dana 30 on 35s - Is it enough?
 
I'm still doing research on trussing and sleeving my HPD30 although I am leaning towards sleeving due to clearance issues

I understand that an outer sleeve will be stronger but it is also a lot more involved than inner sleeving. One must cut the brackets, install sleeve, either have a professional welder do the job or pray to the molten gods that you don't warp your axle and then reinstall all brackets afterwards. The inner sleeve seems pretty straightforward.

For an example, looking at this kit

Synergy Suspension*::*Synergy Suspension Jeep JK, TJ/LJ, XJ, ZJ Dana 30/44 Inner Axle Sleeve Kit

It claims 59% increase in strength, lets say its 50% for the hell of it. Would a 50% strength increase be enough for 35s? Would you really need more? I can't find any outer sleeve kits but I'd imagine the strength increase would also be in the 50-100% range. Is the extra effort really worth it? Am I overlooking anything?

91badass 02-07-2012 08:22 AM

You still have to weld using the inner sleeves, you also have to drill holes along the tube to weld the sleeve to the axle tube. Ive done the inner tube a couple months back, and right now im doing the outer and the gussets on the c's. I saw somewhere an outer tube kit that fit in between your current axle brackets, but I cut them all off and did the whole outer tube.

Jerry Bransford 02-07-2012 08:47 AM

Personally, I wouldn't bother trussing or beefing it up for 35" tires. Instead, I'd take that energy and install hardened chromolly inner & outer axle shafts if you haven't already done so. :)

MikalCarbine 02-07-2012 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 2002944)
Personally, I wouldn't bother trussing or beefing it up for 35" tires. Instead, I'd take that energy and install hardened chromolly inner & outer axle shafts if you haven't already done so. :)

Thanks for the advice Jerry!

I plan on installing the following

ARB 27 Spline Locker
Superior Evolution 27 spline inner/outer shafts with their new 760 U-joint
XRF Ball Joints
Yukon or Motive gears
Eventually warn hubs
C-gusset of some sort
Truss/sleeve

I've read that trussing or sleeving the tubes helps reduce bend which can lead to axle shaft or R+P breakage. What is your opinion on this? Think I can get away with the above upgrades minus the reinforcements?

Jerry Bransford 02-07-2012 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikalCarbine (Post 2002959)
I've read that trussing or sleeving the tubes helps reduce bend which can lead to axle shaft or R+P breakage. What is your opinion on this? Think I can get away with the above upgrades minus the reinforcements?

With your list, I personally wouldn't bother with the truss or sleeving. Once you get Superior Axle's axle shafts in there you won't very likely won't be having axle or u-joint breakages. I sure haven't had any withe either Warn's previously available shafts or my current Superior Axle shafts. The shafts themselves are the main cause and cure for broken u-joints. Unhardened OE shafts don't hang onto the u-joint securely enough which allows it to pull free and spin/break. Hardened shafts hang onto the u-joint so it won't pull free and spin/break.

MikalCarbine 02-07-2012 09:20 AM

Thanks for the advice :thumb:

netlohcs 02-08-2012 01:15 AM

How much do a set of those 27 spline axleshafts cost?

Also, if you are doing the locker at the same time.... wouldn't you want to upgrade to some 30 spline shafts? If you were going to do it.. that would be the time.

I just installed ARBs front and rear and i'm wondering if I wont be kicking myself soon for not going to a 30 spline while I had the chance.

KebHund 02-08-2012 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netlohcs
How much do a set of those 27 spline axleshafts cost?

Also, if you are doing the locker at the same time.... wouldn't you want to upgrade to some 30 spline shafts? If you were going to do it.. that would be the time.

I just installed ARBs front and rear and i'm wondering if I wont be kicking myself soon for not going to a 30 spline while I had the chance.

Guys, I am in the same situation. Have Dana 30/35 and do not know what to do to ensure the axles survive 33". Please, recommend. Thanks!

ipleadda2nd 02-08-2012 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netlohcs (Post 2005969)
How much do a set of those 27 spline axleshafts cost?

Also, if you are doing the locker at the same time.... wouldn't you want to upgrade to some 30 spline shafts? If you were going to do it.. that would be the time.

I just installed ARBs front and rear and i'm wondering if I wont be kicking myself soon for not going to a 30 spline while I had the chance.

The Dana 30 spline count isn't the issue. It's the axles themselves. Get some good aftermarket axles (Chrome-Moly) if you don't want to worry about it. Also, sticking with 27 spline allows you to use factory axles in a pinch (obtained from a buddy, junk yard or parts store).

TheTJRod 02-08-2012 12:44 PM

Swapping to 30 spline outer axles also requires you to get specially made 30 spline wheel bearing hubs. If your worried about axle flex you could get some wide steel bars and weld them to the housing and passenger CA mount or better yet 2x4 rectangular tubing. Would also plate the LCA mounts on the axle as they are prone to bending or ripping off and get a beating every outing.

I would drop the idea of getting warn hubs. The price will never justify the very slight gains.

A pic of what a guy in my club did.
http://cvajeepers.net/attachment.php...8&d=1323391534
http://cvajeepers.net/attachment.php...3&d=1323391602
http://cvajeepers.net/attachment.php...9&d=1323391550

Jerry Bransford 02-08-2012 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTJRod (Post 2007061)
I would drop the idea of getting warn hubs. The price will never justify the very slight gains.

The benefits to Warn hubs over Milemarker, Rugged Ridge, etc. are more than what many realize. Like if you need a hub part on the trail, you're far more likely to find Warn hub parts on the trail than if you have an off-brand like Milemarker or Rocky Ridge. And they've been around so long that most trails difficult enough that Warn hubs are common have guys on them that know how to fix anything on them on the trail. The couple times I've seen a broken hub on some of the scarier trails, parts and help was immediately available from multiple wheelers. That very likely wouldn't be the case with other brands.

Similar to someone I was wheeling with on my last trail who got stuck. He discovered he had left his winch controller at home. A couple of us walked up to offer our Warn winch hand controllers and could only go 'oh' when we saw it had some strange connector that no one had a controller that would have fit. It wouldn't have been a problem if it had been a Warn.

There's something to be said for running with what is most commonly found on the trail.

TheTJRod 02-08-2012 03:46 PM

Far more people have stock axle shafts with hubs for spares. Also the 5x4.5 hub is weaker than a 5x5.5 hub. If you get a 5x5.5, and it uses common 5x5.5 hub parts, I would easily believe that more people have those parts with them as tons of older 1/2-tons use them.

I still fully believe that spending $1400 on a hub conversion would be less cost effective than going to the junkyard and picking up a stock spare axle set with hubs for 50 bucks. Not to mention easier and faster to replace. Then even if going to 5x5.5 you have to change the rear bolt pattern to match and get 5 new wheels. More money.

TheTJRod 02-08-2012 03:52 PM

Just went to check the 5x5.5 kit. It is an upgraded 30 spline lockout and hub. Meaning only other people with upgraded lockout would have parts that you could use. Only the spindle bearings and nuts would be interchangeable.

Jerry Bransford 02-08-2012 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTJRod (Post 2007616)
Just went to check the 5x5.5 kit. It is an upgraded 30 spline lockout and hub. Meaning only other people with upgraded lockout would have parts that you could use. Only the spindle bearings and nuts would be interchangeable.

The tougher the trail, the more likely you'll find manual hubs and the more likely they use 30 spline axle shafts... as mine are and most of those I wheel with are. Broken hubs aren't problems on easier trails.

Let me guess, you are not running manual hubs.

MikalCarbine 02-08-2012 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netlohcs (Post 2005969)
How much do a set of those 27 spline axleshafts cost?

Also, if you are doing the locker at the same time.... wouldn't you want to upgrade to some 30 spline shafts? If you were going to do it.. that would be the time.

I just installed ARBs front and rear and i'm wondering if I wont be kicking myself soon for not going to a 30 spline while I had the chance.

Front 27 splines are about $800 IIRC, I doubt the cost difference between them and 30 splines are much. The reason I am sticking with 27 splines has been stated by someone else on this thread, for easy spares. Jerry brings up good points about the 30 spline shafts but the area/group I wheel with would most likely be running 27 splines. I'll also have 2 full sets of spares (one from my stock d30 and another from the hpd30 I picked up). If I do break a shaft on the trail, I can swap it for my stock shafts, limp home, and return the broken shaft under Superior Axle's lifetime warranty (Evolution series only)

I was thinking more about sleeving the inner of my HPD30 and I talked to my welder, he said if I installed everything and delivered it to him, he'd weld it up cheap. This makes me wonder if this cheap insurance (probably $150 when all is said and done) is worth it? Would sleeves help reduce flex on the R+P or would only a true truss help that issue? If only a truss would help then I'll probably skip out on the sleeve...

For some reason I thought the warn hubs were cheap (~$250 each) but I think I was looking at a replacement hub and not the conversion kit. Wow the kit is expensive! Haha, I'd love to get it but right now I have other priorities I could dump another $1200+ into, like my SYE/TT setup. I definitely see the benefit and maybe in the future will attempt to run such a setup or just swap already hubbed axles

TheTJRod 02-08-2012 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 2007629)
The tougher the trail, the more likely you'll find manual hubs and the more likely they use 30 spline axle shafts... as mine are and most of those I wheel with are. Broken hubs aren't problems on easier trails.

Let me guess, you are not running manual hubs.

By the time your running with those guys your not going to want the d30.

And I'm rebuilding a d44 with manual hubs. A guy in my group has warn 5x5.5 hubs on his XJ, another has a TJ with front and rear hubs.

IndyJeepMan 02-08-2012 10:05 PM

A truss, sleeve and gusset is a grand idea.

All of those, along with beefed up mounts and JJ housing joints itll be a pretty stout 30.

MikalCarbine 02-10-2012 04:54 PM

I'm curious as what you guys think about this...

Nitro dana 30 sleeve install - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum

It is basically a sleeve with gritted ends that you simply hammer into the tubes. It seems to have some crazy tight tolerances and it's a bear to get it in. They make these for JKs but are willing to cut one to size for me. My question is, how can this even compare to the synergy suspension one that requires multiple welds?

AzTJ 02-10-2012 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ipleadda2nd (Post 2006949)
The Dana 30 spline count isn't the issue. It's the axles themselves. Get some good aftermarket axles (Chrome-Moly) if you don't want to worry about it. Also, sticking with 27 spline allows you to use factory axles in a pinch (obtained from a buddy, junk yard or parts store).

Look at the big brain on brad!

QFT!! :punk:

MikalCarbine 02-11-2012 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikalCarbine
I'm curious as what you guys think about this...

Nitro dana 30 sleeve install - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum

It is basically a sleeve with gritted ends that you simply hammer into the tubes. It seems to have some crazy tight tolerances and it's a bear to get it in. They make these for JKs but are willing to cut one to size for me. My question is, how can this even compare to the synergy suspension one that requires multiple welds?

Any opinions on this

TheTJRod 02-11-2012 02:38 PM

Looks like it would really help your tubes from bending. Exact same concept as sleeving tie rods. If it is a press fit it's not much different from having one welded in.

Would also like to point out that the JK axles are stronger than TJ axle and they went back to high pinions. It makes more sense to beef up JK axles than to beef up TJ axle. JK axles are 5" wider than TJ axle and are more prone to bending because of it. Your better off grabbing a HPD30 from an XJ and working on beefing up that one. They bolt right up.

MikalCarbine 02-11-2012 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTJRod (Post 2018351)
Looks like it would really help your tubes from bending. Exact same concept as sleeving tie rods. If it is a press fit it's not much different from having one welded in.

Would also like to point out that the JK axles are stronger than TJ axle and they went back to high pinions. It makes more sense to beef up JK axles than to beef up TJ axle. JK axles are 5" wider than TJ axle and are more prone to bending because of it. Your better off grabbing a HPD30 from an XJ and working on beefing up that one. They bolt right up.

Exactly what I'm doing if you read OP :thumb:

I might go with the Nitro sleeve for ease of install and then weld some C gussets and LCA reinforcements as a learning project once I pick up my welder. Save some money on labor for welding

Black Magic Brakes 02-12-2012 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTJRod (Post 2007616)
Only the spindle bearings and nuts would be interchangeable.

The inner grease seal in the end of the spindle, the spindle needle bearing, the slinger and the slinger seal set are also interchangeable.

Black Magic Brakes 02-12-2012 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTJRod (Post 2018351)
Looks like it would really help your tubes from bending. Exact same concept as sleeving tie rods. If it is a press fit it's not much different from having one welded in.

Would also like to point out that the JK axles are stronger than TJ axle and they went back to high pinions. It makes more sense to beef up JK axles than to beef up TJ axle. JK axles are 5" wider than TJ axle and are more prone to bending because of it. Your better off grabbing a HPD30 from an XJ and working on beefing up that one. They bolt right up.

The JK axleshafts are stronger, the front gears are stronger due to being HP, and I'd wager the locker is plenty strong for most, that said, the housing is no stronger than a TJ front of any iteration and uses the same diameter and wall thickness axle tube.

It is also a fair bit of work to get one done correctly into a TJ and I agree with your recommendation to just get an XJ axle and build it.

MikalCarbine 02-12-2012 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 2020763)
The JK axleshafts are stronger, the front gears are stronger due to being HP, and I'd wager the locker is plenty strong for most, that said, the housing is no stronger than a TJ front of any iteration and uses the same diameter and wall thickness axle tube.

It is also a fair bit of work to get one done correctly into a TJ and I agree with your recommendation to just get an XJ axle and build it.

I do have an HPD30 and I'm building it as stated in the OP, what is your opinion on inner sleeving the axle tubes Mr Blaine? Also I'd be very interested in what you have to say about the press in Nitro sleeve vs a welded sleeve such as the Synergy Suspension :thumb:

MikalCarbine 02-13-2012 06:54 PM

Still looking for some knowledgeable input on the above

Black Magic Brakes 02-13-2012 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikalCarbine (Post 2020845)
I do have an HPD30 and I'm building it as stated in the OP, what is your opinion on inner sleeving the axle tubes Mr Blaine? Also I'd be very interested in what you have to say about the press in Nitro sleeve vs a welded sleeve such as the Synergy Suspension :thumb:

For the TJ or XJ 30, I'd like to see a few examples of why you think they are needed? You do know that both of those are recent products and we've been running the High and Low pinion 30's in both of those rigs on 35's for a very long time with relatively few issues.

Personally, I believe both solve a problem that doesn't exist with enough or anywhere near enough frequency to justify their existence.


Problems with axles become well known in short order due to how fast information finds it way to the internet. Not always accurate, but generally very very fast. Take the 8.8 from the Explorer and ask about it's problems and how to solve them. In short order you will quickly get answers about it's width, offset pinion, disc brakes, what years it's from and why you need to weld the tubes to the diff casting.

Ask the same question about a HP 30 and no one says that you need to beef up the long side tube to keep it from breaking, flexing, bending, or otherwise needing much other than to run it as is.

The only reason a tube that goes inside the JK front axle even exists is due to how quickly folks bolted on tires that are a tad too large and then promptly cracked some of the earlier long side axle tubes in half.

It was cheaper and easier to slide a tube inside another tube than to do it right and either re-tube it with 3" tubes, or make a good truss for it.

I prefer the re-tube myself.

Pictures start on the second page-

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/sl...-axle-1227882/

MikalCarbine 02-13-2012 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 2027312)
For the TJ or XJ 30, I'd like to see a few examples of why you think they are needed? You do know that both of those are recent products and we've been running the High and Low pinion 30's in both of those rigs on 35's for a very long time with relatively few issues.

Personally, I believe both solve a problem that doesn't exist with enough or anywhere near enough frequency to justify their existence.


Problems with axles become well known in short order due to how fast information finds it way to the internet. Not always accurate, but generally very very fast. Take the 8.8 from the Explorer and ask about it's problems and how to solve them. In short order you will quickly get answers about it's width, offset pinion, disc brakes, what years it's from and why you need to weld the tubes to the diff casting.

Ask the same question about a HP 30 and no one says that you need to beef up the long side tube to keep it from breaking, flexing, bending, or otherwise needing much other than to run it as is.

The only reason a tube that goes inside the JK front axle even exists is due to how quickly folks bolted on tires that are a tad too large and then promptly cracked some of the earlier long side axle tubes in half.

It was cheaper and easier to slide a tube inside another tube than to do it right and either re-tube it with 3" tubes, or make a good truss for it.

I prefer the re-tube myself.

Pictures start on the second page-

Sleeving a JK Dana 44 Rubi front axle - JeepForum.com

That's some good information and lines up exactly with what Gerry said, would you categorize the inner C's in the same category - more internet hype? Or would those be worth reinforcing

MikalCarbine 02-15-2012 05:18 PM

XRF balljoints and ZJ tie rod came in today :)

Just ordered some Timken hubs. Would anyone recommend against reusing old hub bolts and main hub nut if they appear to be in good condition?

Black Magic Brakes 02-15-2012 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikalCarbine (Post 2035222)
XRF balljoints and ZJ tie rod came in today :)

Just ordered some Timken hubs. Would anyone recommend against reusing old hub bolts and main hub nut if they appear to be in good condition?

Let us know how the XRF's do for you. We're not getting more than about 10000 miles out of them on 35's.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:44 PM.