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-   -   2nd gear hard to find when cold (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/2nd-gear-hard-to-find-when-cold-13848.html)

WSU Tony 12-08-2007 01:05 PM

2nd gear hard to find when cold
 
Hey guys. Whenever I start my jeep up (99 sport with 105 K) everything works great....except for 2nd gear. Unless the Jeep is warm, 2nd gear is impossible to find. Literally it will grind almost every time I try to get it into second. When its cold and I try to put it into second I almost have to pull the shifter towards myself, as soon as I let go of the shifter it grinds like crazy.

As soon as the jeep is warm 2nd works fine. This problem is seriously worrying me and I try to warm up the jeep well ahead of time, and I try to make stop at the grocery store and such quicker so I won't have to deal with the cold 2nd gear.

Is their anything I could do for this? I have thought about taking 1st into high rpm, then shifting directly to third, what do you think about this idea?

Any suggestions for me?

Thanks so much guys.

98TJ 12-08-2007 03:38 PM

I experience the exact same thing. If i don't let it warm up I usually just rev in 1st then go to 3rd. It usually takes a good 5 minute drive to warm it up. I have been told that replacing the tranny fluid with ATF will not make it so stiff and you shouldn't have a problem. I will be switching over to ATF for the winter soon.

George T. 12-08-2007 04:33 PM

same problem here.

catoct 12-08-2007 05:58 PM

Similar for my 2000 Sahara, not as drastic as you describe, but I really have to pause going from 1st to 2nd and push it very slow, otherwise it grinds. All fine when warm...

richp 12-08-2007 06:26 PM

Replace the factory gear lube with Redline MT-90, the factory is organic and gets like molasses when it's cold. It has to be GL-4 rated which the MT is.

marc1kim 12-08-2007 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richp (Post 168718)
Replace the factory gear lube with Redline MT-90, the factory is organic and gets like molasses when it's cold. It has to be GL-4 rated which the MT is.

+1, Stay away from GL-5 based lube as it has addatives that will cause your brass synchros to wear faster.

jonnybravo 12-08-2007 07:00 PM

same problem with with my 99 sahara. if its above 0 its fine, -10 or worse it grinds so i just skip 2nd for a few minutes

amy 12-08-2007 07:46 PM

I have the same problem with my '99 Sahara, too. Letting the jeep sit and warm up does nothing to help, it has to be driven before second warms up.

richp 12-08-2007 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amy (Post 168749)
I have the same problem with my '99 Sahara, too. Letting the jeep sit and warm up does nothing to help, it has to be driven before second warms up.

Correction, it has to be driven till the oil warms up, synthetic will solve this in about 2 minutes, just make sure it's GL3/4 NOT GL5 or GL6 or any combination that says GL5/6 as in 'meets GL2 GL3 GL4 GL5 GL 6 requirements' that GL5/6 means it has sulfur in it for high pressure lube like is commonly needed on ring and pinion gears. The only one I know besides the dealer stuff you have in there is Redline MT that meets the requirements. Royal Purple *may* have one, I don't know. What I do know is the techs at Redline recommend this.

Triple88a 12-08-2007 08:29 PM

I do not have that problem but I'd imagine if you start off from 2nd instead of 1st it should be nice so you can just put it in 2nd and then let go of the clutch.

WSU Tony 12-08-2007 11:53 PM

What exactly needs to be warmed up. Like you said I can let it warm up for 10 minutes and it still doesn't help 2nd gear "loosen" up. What needs to warm up this much? Is it the fact that the oil doesn't really get less paste (and more liquid like) like until your actually running the engine at a higher RPM?

GrnTJ 12-09-2007 02:24 AM

Mine is not hard to find its jsut kinda tough to throw it into second. I have to pull kinda hard to get it to go into second. I'll get some redline next weekend then and change it up. Anyone know how much it takes?

Triple88a 12-09-2007 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrnTJ (Post 168866)
I have to pull kinda hard to get it to go into second.

Thats the syncros working....
For getting it into 2nd when cold.. try shifting from 1st to 2nd when in very low rpm at about 1300-1500rpm.. see if that helps a bit.

GrnTJ 12-09-2007 04:40 AM

Thanks Trip, I'll give it a shot and see what happens. Specially since I got my first Michigan winter starting with the TJ. My old ZJ was an auto.

parrot head 12-09-2007 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSU Tony (Post 168848)
What exactly needs to be warmed up. Like you said I can let it warm up for 10 minutes and it still doesn't help 2nd gear "loosen" up. What needs to warm up this much? Is it the fact that the oil doesn't really get less paste (and more liquid like) like until your actually running the engine at a higher RPM?


Warming the engine up doesn't help because the transmission is not getting warmed up just sitting there. It would take a long long time for the heat from the engine to warm up the trans, especially in below freezing weather. When you actually start driving and using the trans. it starts to warm up. Warm oil is thinner and therefore flows better, and the trans will shift easier. Changing the oil in the trans to a thinner viscosity, especially in the winter months would make shifting easier.

richp 12-09-2007 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrnTJ (Post 168866)
Mine is not hard to find its jsut kinda tough to throw it into second. I have to pull kinda hard to get it to go into second. I'll get some redline next weekend then and change it up. Anyone know how much it takes?

The tranny has to warm up, it does not warm up if you start it and let it sit for an hour except by maybe some heat being transferred from the hot engine and the exhaust system going under it. The tranny has to turn and heat the gear oil up, that stuff is THICK normally, it's molasses once it gets cold. Heck, at 32F it barely will even pour out of the can, take it down to 10F and it's as thick as toothpaste :D and you have to squeeze it out of the bottle.
Even your engine oil takes much longer to heat up than the coolant and temperature gauge, start it cold and run it till the temp gauge goes up a ways, then pull the dipstick, the oil will still be COLD, engine oil usually takes about 20 minutes to get warm and 30 to get hot enough to cook off the moisture from condensation in the cold motor.
Synthetic is pretty much pour able at any temp we would run into below the arctic circle, I know my 10W30 Mobil-1 is pour able at 5F as I have changed my oil after it has sat out overnite in one of the other jeeps.

marc1kim 12-09-2007 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richp (Post 168753)
Correction, it has to be driven till the oil warms up, synthetic will solve this in about 2 minutes, just make sure it's GL3/4 NOT GL5 or GL6 or any combination that says GL5/6 as in 'meets GL2 GL3 GL4 GL5 GL 6 requirements' that GL5/6 means it has sulfur in it for high pressure lube like is commonly needed on ring and pinion gears. The only one I know besides the dealer stuff you have in there is Redline MT that meets the requirements. Royal Purple *may* have one, I don't know. What I do know is the techs at Redline recommend this.


I was over at Stu Olson's site to get the mopar/ chrysler part numbers for the ax-5/ax-15 fluid (04897622AA / MS-9684) to compare prices at http://www.mopar-parts-dealer.com/parts.htm

and this is what I got:


Part number 4897622aa was superceded by part number 4761839AC.

4761839AC is 10W30 Oil!!!!

In another forum Jerry Bransford said that 10W-30 engine oil is roughly equivilent in viscosity to 75W-90 gear lube. So....Does that mean Chrysler is recommending 10W30 for the AX-5 / AX-15 Trannies?

richp 12-09-2007 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc1kim (Post 168972)
I was over at Stu Olson's site to get the mopar/ chrysler part numbers for the ax-5/ax-15 fluid (04897622AA / MS-9684) to compare prices at http://www.mopar-parts-dealer.com/parts.htm

and this is what I got:


Part number 4897622aa was superceded by part number 4761839AC.

4761839AC is 10W30 Oil!!!!

In another forum Jerry Bransford said that 10W-30 engine oil is roughly equivilent in viscosity to 75W-90 gear lube. So....Does that mean Chrysler is recommending 10W30 for the AX-5 / AX-15 Trannies?

I don't know but it sure would solve the GL5 sulphur issue. The lube used in both trannys and transfer cases like a game of expensive musical chairs.

GrnTJ 12-09-2007 03:57 PM

I read in Petersons a while back that when changing t-case fluid, 10W30 is the best stuff to use. So before the weekend rolls around, should I just get some 10W30 for the trans instead? Synthetic of course.

White93ARB 12-09-2007 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrnTJ (Post 169003)
I read in Petersons a while back that when changing t-case fluid, 10W30 is the best stuff to use. So before the weekend rolls around, should I just get some 10W30 for the trans instead? Synthetic of course.

+1. I need to know, I drained my T Case and my tranny when trying to disgnose my Jeep making strange noises but don't know what to fill it back up with.

GrnTJ 12-09-2007 09:10 PM

Hey White93, you can trust Petersons and throw the 10W30 into the tcase but Id really like to know for the tranny. That would save some $$ for sure. What do you think rich?

richp 12-09-2007 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrnTJ (Post 169164)
Hey White93, you can trust Petersons and throw the 10W30 into the tcase but Id really like to know for the tranny. That would save some $$ for sure. What do you think rich?

I dunno, I've been running Mobil-1 ATF in my 98XJ 231 for the past 340,000mi and the chain is still tight and it shifts like butter. I'm sticking with that.
The tranny change does interest me, alot. Note that I'm not willing to be the guinea pig in either my AX15 or AX5's.... They all got their redline a couple of months ago so I'll sit on the sidelines and watch for a while to see what happens.

marc1kim 12-09-2007 09:28 PM

Well, I was checking out the Transmission Lube chart on the Royal purple website and they recommend 10W40 for all 98 and newer Jeep manual transmissions, except for the NV3550.

For the NV3550 Transmission they recommend the Royal Purple Synchromax...which is probably equivalent to the Pennzoil Synchromesh.

Even further proof is the Redline GL-4 descriptions I found online:

Red Line MTLĀ® Manual Transmission Lubricant
A70W80 GL-4 gear oil (SAE 5W30/10W30 engine oil viscosity) designed for use in manual transmissions and transaxles.

So....I'm thinking that GL-3/ GL-4 is just rebadged 10w30 motor oil.

marc1kim 12-09-2007 09:39 PM

The NV1500 and NSG370 also take synchomesh (or synchomax) fluid.

richp 12-09-2007 09:49 PM

I have a case of MT-90 sitting right here and I'm looking at a bottle, SAE 75W90 API GL-4 Gear oil, I also have a bottle of Mobil-1 10W30 High Milage out of a six pack I use to add the extra quart from the 5 quart containers I get a walmart.
The question is, can a 10W30 weight oil provide the correct lubrication as a 75W90. One member on naxja said 'would you run a 10W30 in your differential'. Put that way I would say no, would it be safe to run in an AX tranny, I don't know. It could be a very expensive mistake.

marc1kim 12-09-2007 11:40 PM

Rich, I know where your coming from. Here's a quote taken from Jerry Bransford (a moderator at another jeep forum):

"10W-30 engine oil is roughly equivilent in viscosity to 75W-90 gear lube. Gear lube and engine oil use different viscosity scales so even if they are similar in consistency, their viscosity numbers will be different."

Of course if your using the 75W90 for rear end there may be addatives for the Hypoid Spider Gears, and posi-trac clutches.

But all we know right now is that Chrysler superceded their ax-5/ax-15 fluid with 10W30. I'm going to make a few phone calls tomorrow to some dealers to verify the changes. I wish there was a way to contact Jeep to verify that 10W30 is OK. If everything checks out, then my heep is getting some fresh Synthetic 10W30.

Tee 12-10-2007 07:50 PM

Do you have a body lift? I developed this problem after installing a 1.25" BL.
It's because the shifter is hitting the tunnel if you have a BL.

Triple88a 12-10-2007 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tee (Post 169557)
Do you have a body lift? I developed this problem after installing a 1.25" BL.
It's because the shifter is hitting the tunnel if you have a BL.

No he does not...

hpipe 12-18-2007 01:14 PM

Same problem here with my 97 4cyl...

Goes right in when low RPM, hard to put in gear at higher RPMs

Smeghead 12-18-2007 01:46 PM

++ mines the same way, second is fine if you let the revs drop but you have to give it some help if not


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