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-   -   WJ Knuckle Swap to stop these 37s :) (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/wj-knuckle-swap-to-stop-these-37s-186816.html)

TJe0454 09-13-2012 11:52 AM

WJ Knuckle Swap to stop these 37s :)
 
Looking to swap in the WJ knuckles to get the better brakes, steering setup, and eventually high steer. I just ordered the JKS flange spacers. Wanted to see if it would be possible to use my ZJ tie rod as a drag link (pitman arm to knuckle). I know it might not work, i havent even looked into it. but i thought, instead of wasting the 100 i spent on it, why not use it or straighten the bend then use it. Also, is it possible to use the inverted y-steering while i save up for the steering? would it be cheaper to buy piping, TREs, and bungs and gettum welded up? (for the drag link/tie rod). I would wait to do the knuckles, but my current brake pads are completely done, and there are some serious ruts in the knuckles. (dont want to fix it)

distortedtj 09-13-2012 11:56 AM

Note: The WJ brakes on the D30 are the same as the TJ's.

Have had 2 WJ's now. Brakes were far from great.

Imped 09-13-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJe0454 (Post 2788667)
Looking to swap in the WJ knuckles to get the better brakes, steering setup, and eventually high steer. I just ordered the JKS flange spacers. Wanted to see if it would be possible to use my ZJ tie rod as a drag link (pitman arm to knuckle). I know it might not work, i havent even looked into it. but i thought, instead of wasting the 100 i spent on it, why not use it or straighten the bend then use it. Also, is it possible to use the inverted y-steering while i save up for the steering? would it be cheaper to buy piping, TREs, and bungs and gettum welded up? (for the drag link/tie rod). I would wait to do the knuckles, but my current brake pads are completely done, and there are some serious ruts in the knuckles. (dont want to fix it)

Have you read any of the WJ knuckle swap write-ups?
Quote:

Originally Posted by distortedtj (Post 2788679)
Note: The WJ brakes on the D30 are the same as the TJ's.

Have had 2 WJ's now. Brakes were far from great.

Incorrect.

distortedtj 09-13-2012 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imped (Post 2788709)
Incorrect.

Ha, I was thinking of the ZJ brakes. :zap: The WJ uses that wonderful CV axle.

Regardless every WJ with factory brakes I've driven has stopped very poorly in my opinion. Don't know if I would see a great improvement over TJ brakes.

Anyone got a link to the swap...with Spec's? Curious.

Imped 09-13-2012 12:28 PM

This is a huge thread with links upon links. WJ Knuckle/Brake/Steering Swap. Anyone want a write-up? - JeepForum.com

Another thread: TJ hp 30 WJ knuckle conversion - JeepForum.com

Some nice steering tech in here: Sell me on Currie steering upgrade. - JeepForum.com


Why wouldn't dual-piston calipers provide an upgrade over the factory single piston calipers?

Here's the thing with the WJ swap. To do it correctly and to make it worth your time, it will cost you a nice chunk of change, will require some knowledge of suspension and steering geometry on your part, and will require some fabrication and welding. The entire reason the Vanco brake kit was developed was due to the amount of time, money, and knowledge it takes to properly swap WJ knuckles over to a TJ.....not everyone wanting more powerful brakes possesses those three things concurrently. So before you embark on this swap, read everything in that thread + some and then compare the simple couple-hour Vanco swap vs. WJ swap.

Then ask yourself what the K2K/crossover steering REALLY gains you over inverted Y setup using good parts and a driver's side knuckle flip. And just to remove bias, I fully plan on doing a WJ swap one of these days in my downtime just to do it.

distortedtj 09-13-2012 12:33 PM

I have not to worry. I have the Vanco kit.

TJe0454 09-13-2012 01:16 PM

Yes, I have read over a dozen threads/writeups on this. And this swap will stop better than the Vanco kit once i get new pads. Not to mention the crossover steering....
Thank you Imped for the info!
I have the use of a master fabricator/welder at my disposal. He has set up countless steering systems and axles.
Question as of right now: if i keep the inverted y steering, will it make contact with the sway bar mounts or track bar mounts?

TJe0454 09-13-2012 01:18 PM

and/or use draglink/track bar from the WJ?

EDIT: WJ tie rod wont work

UnlimitedLJ04 09-13-2012 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by distortedtj (Post 2788832)
I have not to worry. I have the Vanco kit.

I've heard the WJ brakes w/ Akebono calipers is on par with the 16" Vanco kit w/ 48mm calipers, and better than the 15" kit with the 46mm calipers.

But the WJ conversion takes a lot of work....sometimes even notching the frame to clear the drag-link at full bump, and front track bar fabrication. All this stems from the differences in geometry between the two vehicles...WJ's springs perches are more centered & positioned higher over the axle tube than the TJ/XJ/ZJ.

I looked into the swap really carefully, and decided to stick with stock style inverted-Y steering and the Vanco kit to save headaches.

TJe0454 09-13-2012 08:05 PM

JKS makes the track bar relocation bracket. notching the frame is easy

UnlimitedLJ04 09-13-2012 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJe0454 (Post 2790199)
JKS makes the track bar relocation bracket. notching the frame is easy

the shortened track bar works, but isn't perfect.... and cutting a hole in your frame & welding it back up certainly isn't for everyone....that's why the Vanco kit exists.

TJe0454 09-13-2012 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnlimitedLJ04 (Post 2790233)
the shortened track bar works, but isn't perfect.... and cutting a hole in your frame & welding it back up certainly isn't for everyone....that's why the Vanco kit exists.

i agree, how many bends does the needed track bar have? is it pretty simple? if so, i can just get the parts and have it made.

UnlimitedLJ04 09-13-2012 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJe0454 (Post 2790283)
i agree, how many bends does the needed track bar have? is it pretty simple? if so, i can just get the parts and have it made.

how many bends it needs is going to depend on the design you settle upon...it needs enough to clear the diff at full bump.

the "isn't perfect" statement refers to the fact that when you build your own steering/track bar system on our coil spring TJ's, the drag link and track bar need to be 1) parallel; 2) in the same plane; and 3) the same length.

when doing the WJ conversion, you'll notice most people put a taller bracket on top of the axle tube. This ignores #3, and sometimes #2.

the reason they do this is because of where the springs mount vs a WJ setup. Remember I said the WJ springs are more centered over the axle tube, and TJ's aren't? Well on the TJ, you can't put the track bar in the same position as the WJ because the spring is in the way. So if you want to fit the track bar in like the WJ's setup, and satisfy #3, you need to cut your TJ spring perches off and move the springs over the axle tube....then put the track bar mount in front of it. You gain free wheelbase this way, and move the tires forward in the wheelwell. but...moving the spring perches is a crapload of work to get better brakes.

Now, lets say you notice the WJ's crossover setup puts the tie-rod hanging quite a bit lower than the TJ/XJ/ZJ....so you want to flip it. This means you'll need to flip the drag-link too. Now, depending how much uptravel you're looking for & how much bumpstop extension you're willing to run, this could mean you end up having to notch the frame, because otherwise the drag-link can whack your frame at full bump.

Then you run into a problem with the knuckles, because bolting up the TJ unit bearing with the spacer to the WJ knuckle doesn't necessarily mean the u-joint is centered where it needs to be. You need to do the math to make sure this is correct, and make sure the spacer is the appropriate thickness...the requirement might be thicker or thinner than the spacers you bought....so there could be machine shop work needed there.

You also need to swap the ball joints to WJ ball joints because the tapers are different.

So to do this right it gets pretty involved.

Imped 09-14-2012 07:32 AM

^^
And that's the whole explanation that needed to be spelled out but all of that info is in the threads I linked. I had no interest in typing all of that out. ;)

And that's why Vanco kits exist, cost what they do, and are worth it.

Black Magic Brakes 09-14-2012 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJe0454 (Post 2788990)
Yes, I have read over a dozen threads/writeups on this. And this swap will stop better than the Vanco kit once i get new pads.

There is not "a" Vanco kit, there are about 8 or 9 of them. The smaller ones have 11.5" rotors 1.02" thick with 48mm dual piston calipers.

The medium ones are equivalent to the WJ stuff in that both have 48mm dual piston calipers, 12.01" diameter rotors that are 1.02" thick.

The large version has a 13.23" diameter rotor that is 1.10" thick and a 54mm dual piston caliper.

If by new pads you mean the Black Magic stuff, then yes, you will be able to stop as good as the Vanco 16" kits, slightly better than the 15" stuff and not even close to the 17" stuff.



Quote:

Not to mention the crossover steering....
For all of the internet's crowing about how great C/O steering is, it has no advantage that makes it worth the hassle to build and install on the TJ or WJ knuckles.

Quote:

Thank you Imped for the info!
I have the use of a master fabricator/welder at my disposal. He has set up countless steering systems and axles.
Question as of right now: if i keep the inverted y steering, will it make contact with the sway bar mounts or track bar mounts?
Keeping inverted Y by using the lower are on the WJ knuckle is a bit silly. The WJ lower steering arms are 3/4" lower than the TJ knuckle so you will lose some parallelism to to the trackbar.

I used to do WJ conversions very frequently to get better brakes for folks. All the work it takes with the not insignificant expense and labor is precisely the reason I developed the bolt on Vanco kits.

TJe0454 11-15-2012 10:05 AM

UPDATE:
did the WJ knuckle swap. the jeep stops GREAT. was able to grab the tie rod and drag link off of the WJ and cut them down and use them. not running a steering stabilizer right now. i have no issues other than my steering box (came down on it on a rock). so i got a durango box for free, just drilled/tapped it for hydro assist. ordered a 1.5"x6" ram and all the lines/connectors.
about to do track bar work and tie rod flip. got the goferit kit last week. going OTA and might shorten my RC adjustable track bar at the bushing side. will post pics if anyones interested.

Imped 11-15-2012 10:23 AM

Post up.

Rwill8751 04-07-2014 01:48 AM

Post Pics

TJe0454 04-07-2014 08:59 AM

Totally switched up my setup. Ended with 35" mtrs and removed the ram. Slowed my steering response too much.

TJe0454 04-07-2014 09:03 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Here you go

Rwill8751 04-11-2014 01:53 PM

I am really thinking about doing this. How is everything holding up for you and did you relocate the springs


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