Jeep Wrangler Forum

Jeep Wrangler Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/)
-   TJ Tech Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/)
-   -   Moving with clutch engaged (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/moving-with-clutch-engaged-193880.html)

kecksnext 10-17-2012 09:00 PM

Moving with clutch engaged
 
99 TJ 4.0 5 sp

I've noticed lately that when I'm stopped at a light and I'm in gear with the clutch depressed the Jeep will move forward. The clutch was replaced around 4 or 5 years ago. I usually stop at lights with the clutch engaged because if I don't it will not go into gear. I know this isn't optimal but I really have no choice since I can't afford another trans or rebuild. Any ideas on if it's the TOB or is the clutch the culprit once again? Is there any type of diagnostics to perform to figure between the clutch,TOB, synchronizers etc?

brokejeep 10-17-2012 09:03 PM

I would think it's in the clutch adjustment to the clutch pedal.

darkproximity 10-17-2012 09:05 PM

Do you ever get grinding when shifting?

kecksnext 10-17-2012 09:22 PM

Where is there a clutch adjustment? I was under the impression there was no adjustment.

Yes, I get grinding 1st - 2nd and reverse. Pretty sure that's synchros but who can do that job?

darkproximity 10-17-2012 09:27 PM

Well the fact that it moves with the clutch pedal fully pushed in and you get grinding, my guess is the master or slave have failed. Fortunately you can buy a sealed (already bled) clutch slave unit for about 150. If the internal seals have begun to fail you won't get any leaks but you won't get full travel of the slave cylinders piston, ie your pressure plate won't fully disengage when you push the pedal in, which means the clutch is still partially engaged

jherrington 10-17-2012 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kecksnext
Where is there a clutch adjustment? I was under the impression there was no adjustment.

Yes, I get grinding 1st - 2nd and reverse. Pretty sure that's synchros but who can do that job?

I get the exact same grinding. Sometimes I can't get it into reverse, I let out the clutch, it grinds. Then I take it out and force it in, and it will go in.. But my jeep doesn't move when the clutch is depressed. So, does this mean that I could also have the same problem?
Also, I noticed on my dads 01 Sahara, the clutch is A HELL OF A LOT easier to push in, and his tranny is A HELL OF A LOT easier to shift with.. Was there a change in the design between 98 and 01? Or does it just sound like I need new fluids(never been changed) or new slave/master cylinder. Or both?! Lol

kecksnext 10-17-2012 09:52 PM

Darkproximitiy....is there a way to determine if it's the slave or master? I have no leaks to speak of.

Jherrington... Holy Heffernan Herrington!! 336,500!!! Well done! I'm with you on the original bits. It seemed liked this Jeep held together on miles dirt and leaks until I started to "prevent" stuff. As for the grinding it's probably the synchronizers as I see your clutch was replaced.

You may also want to look into replacing the tranny fluid if that hasn't been done regularly.

jherrington 10-17-2012 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kecksnext
Darkproximitiy....is there a way to determine if it's the slave or master? I have no leaks to speak of.

Jherrington... Holy Heffernan Herrington!! 336,500!!! Well done! I'm with you on the original bits. It seemed liked this Jeep held together on miles dirt and leaks until I started to "prevent" stuff. As for the grinding it's probably the synchronizers as I see your clutch was replaced.

Yes it was replaced in August. How would they now be messing up because of the new clutch?

jeepwayoflife 10-17-2012 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkproximity
Well the fact that it moves with the clutch pedal fully pushed in and you get grinding, my guess is the master or slave have failed. Fortunately you can buy a sealed (already bled) clutch slave unit for about 150. If the internal seals have begun to fail you won't get any leaks but you won't get full travel of the slave cylinders piston, ie your pressure plate won't fully disengage when you push the pedal in, which means the clutch is still partially engaged

X2. There is no way to adjust a clutch like many believe, so a problem like you are describing is probably from a failing slave or master cyclinder. If you pull up on the clutch, does it come up at all? (Like it was stuck down a little)

kecksnext 10-17-2012 10:10 PM

Not messing up because of the new clutch, I'm just kinda ruling it out as a factor as the clutch is new. Check or replace the fluid in the tranny first as this is a relatively cheap and easy place to start. If it's the synchros like mine it's basically a done deal like I said. No one replaces those as a weekend warrior. Dang!!! 336,500 I still can't get over that number.

darkproximity 10-17-2012 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kecksnext
Darkproximitiy....is there a way to determine if it's the slave or master? I have no leaks to speak of.

Jherrington... Holy Heffernan Herrington!! 336,500!!! Well done! I'm with you on the original bits. It seemed liked this Jeep held together on miles dirt and leaks until I started to "prevent" stuff. As for the grinding it's probably the synchronizers as I see your clutch was replaced.

You may also want to look into replacing the tranny fluid if that hasn't been done regularly.

Well considering they sell them as a sealed pair, just replace both, it will be far easier on you to do.

kecksnext 10-17-2012 10:13 PM

Jeepwayoflife...I'll need to check that in the am. There is nothing that I've noticed different in the travel to be noticed off hand.

darkproximity 10-17-2012 10:15 PM

I can guarantee you even a failing transmission won't allow you to move if the clutch is working properly. The grinding and moving with clutch fully depressed is a symptom of a clutch related problem, either the pressure plate (highly doubt it) or the mechanism that controls the engagement and disengagement of the clutch (most likely culprit)

Imagine trying to shift without using the clutch or rev matching, your gears will grind even with synchros

Bgtklbx 10-17-2012 10:16 PM

Sounds like you are not getting a full clean separation of the clutch disc from the flywheel. Probably the master or slave cylinder. Look for fluid wetness around either one. Check the fluid level to see if it is low...if not then you have an internal fluid pressure loss. Subsequently you do not get full travel of the throw out bearing. So, it creeps forward when the pedal is fully depressed. Hope this helps.

jherrington 10-17-2012 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeepwayoflife

X2. There is no way to adjust a clutch like many believe, so a problem like you are describing is probably from a failing slave or master cyclinder. If you pull up on the clutch, does it come up at all? (Like it was stuck down a little)

I can lift my pedal. As if its just loose. Like it has play in it. Kinda like how you can do that with the gas pedal.. Is that normal play in it? Or should you not be able to lift the clutch petal at all?

darkproximity 10-17-2012 10:17 PM

I can guarantee you even a failing transmission won't allow you to move if the clutch is working properly. The grinding and moving with clutch fully depressed is a symptom of a clutch related problem, either the pressure plate (highly doubt it) or the mechanism that controls the engagement and disengagement of the clutch (most likely culprit)

Imagine trying to shift without using the clutch or rev matching, your gears will grind even with synchros being just fine. This is the same thing happening now, you aren't getting full travel of the slave cylinder, which means the pressure plate isn't fully disengaging, which is essentially the same as you trying to shift without using the clutch

kecksnext 10-17-2012 10:18 PM

I've made it 40+ years and never replaced a clutch so laugh away. I assumed the master and slave were a separate system . Is this a do-able job for the average guy?

jherrington 10-17-2012 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kecksnext
I've made it 40+ years and never replaced a clutch so laugh away. I assumed the master and slave were a separate system . Is this a do-able job for the average guy?

Well my first one was at 333k. So that not too bad(:

darkproximity 10-17-2012 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kecksnext
I've made it 40+ years and never replaced a clutch so laugh away. I assumed the master and slave were a separate system . Is this a do-able job for the average guy?

The master/slave is very simple, especially with a sealed unit, and you're right its a different system technically.. 4 bolts and that's it, shouldn't take more than an hour from start to finish including drinking a few beers and smoking a few cigarettes lol

kecksnext 10-17-2012 10:22 PM

I guess this is a learning lesson for mixing topics.... When I mentioned the synchros and fluid change that was for the benefit of herrington. I wasn't implying that it was related to the Jeep creeping forward at lights.

kecksnext 10-17-2012 10:26 PM

Thanks darkproximity and BGT for the heads up. I'll search for a write up.

333k Herrington?!?! Mine was at like 110k....how do you do it?

darkproximity 10-17-2012 10:30 PM

I could do a write up lol, loosen the bolts on the master cylinder and remove (under the hood, drivers side next to the brake master), and slave cylinder (bolted to the transmission bellhousing on the drivers side of the transmission) then install the new master, then route the slave and line down under to the transmission, bolt in slave. Done

kecksnext 10-17-2012 10:35 PM

Can you give me odds on this? $150 is a big maybe for my budget. Thats why im stopping at lights with the clutch engaged to begin with.

jherrington 10-17-2012 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kecksnext
333k Herrington?!?! Mine was at like 110k....how do you do it?

Ask my dad. He owned it up unill 333k. I just hit 337k a couple days ago, so I need to update my sig. Lol
He drove it like a baby. Alway kept the rpms below 2k and never took it off road. Also always took the roads where he would have to stop less because that causes faster clutch wear.

But you think new oil could keep it from grinding into second and slide into reverse easier? I mean I guess it can't really hurt anything.

kecksnext 10-17-2012 10:55 PM

If the tranny fluid hasn't been changed it can only help. I noticed easier gear changes after my original change. Just make sure you're using the correct replacement. I don't know about the 98 but my 99 ( as opposed to the manual) is a 10w-30 pure synthetic. Just make certain you are replacing with the correct oil.

jherrington 10-17-2012 11:03 PM

My book says 75w-90 gli 5 but since you're talking about using motor oil, I think they are the equivilancy.

kecksnext 10-17-2012 11:07 PM

I would definitely do some research on that. I remember mine saying something about gl5 which was a complete no no.

darkproximity 10-17-2012 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kecksnext
Can you give me odds on this? $150 is a big maybe for my budget. Thats why im stopping at lights with the clutch engaged to begin with.

From what you're telling me I'm 99% sure, and others who have posted here have also agreed with my diagnosis as well

jherrington 10-17-2012 11:09 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 169830

Am I reading it wrong? Hahaha

darkproximity 10-17-2012 11:11 PM

The ax15 transmission used up until the 2000 model year, requires a gl4 lube or yellow metal safe gl5, the nv3550 transmission is different, used from 2000-2004


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:54 PM.