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tiny terror 08-17-2008 05:17 PM

gun packing teachers...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by associated press
HARROLD, Texas A tiny Texas school district may be the first in the nation to allow teachers and staff to pack guns for protection when classes begin later this month, a newspaper reported.

Trustees at the Harrold Independent School District approved a district policy change last October so employees can carry concealed firearms to deter and protect against school shootings, provided the gun-toting teachers follow certain requirements.

In order for teachers and staff to carry a pistol, they must have a Texas license to carry a concealed handgun; must be authorized to carry by the district; must receive training in crisis management and hostile situations and have to use ammunition that is designed to minimize the risk of ricochet in school halls.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5945430.html


I don't know. Is it a good idea? Is it a last ditch effort? Is it eventually going to be our only choice?

jeeptales 08-17-2008 05:28 PM

Praise the Lord and Pass the ammo!
 
I think..

It is a great Idea!

You know this school is 30 miles away from the Sheriff's Department and 200 yards from a highway.

There are 4 big requirements to be able to do this.

You have to be concealed hand gun permit
You need to be approved by the School board and District
And you must be trained in Crisis management.
And there is a particular ammo you have to be packing to limit collateral injury


I think it is about time... Making a school a GUN FREE ZONE is like waking the halls of a High School with a KICK ME sign on your back.

tiny terror 08-17-2008 05:33 PM

Well, yeah JT, I read the article, all of those points are in there. That's why I asked. Good idea why?

tiny terror 08-17-2008 05:42 PM

And since I didn't voice my opinion, I guess I should...

Personally, I think it's a bad idea to allow teachers to carry. I think the schools need highly trained gun toting police if this is the way we're going. A teacher who's merely taken a course and trained in the evenings or on the weekends is not trained enough to carry a gun around kids.

It takes time to be proficient. They have enough on their plate attempting to teach the next generation the myriad of state required subjects as well as offer legitimate education.

My opinion may change if said teacher is already highly trained because of a personal interest.

MoSo 08-17-2008 05:49 PM

It's a terrible idea. If the schools in that area have gotten to the point where the threat level is high enough, then they need to have professional, trained security (like police). A course here or there is not acceptable.

Also, the number of things getting heaped on teachers as requirements are ridiculous. A teacher is there to teach your children academic subjects - not morals, manners or religion and is certainly not there to be a bodyguard.

jeeptales 08-17-2008 05:56 PM

I'm not sure how it shakes out but that small school is defenseless...

I was a block away from Windsor Park Mall in San Antonio about three months after the first classes or the Concealed Permits had been issued.

Two Gang bangers started shooting at each other endangering innocent bystanders in the crossfire.

Both of them were shot and killed by handgun permit holders with no other collateral damage....

There has not been a shooting in any of the San Antonio Malls since that day.

I think the reward outweighs the risk.

It Might be a TEXAS Thing! :bottom:

We kill our bad guys... It works for me!

4Jeepn 08-17-2008 06:44 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7bsBwKYYcY

richp 08-17-2008 06:46 PM

I was in a small restaurant outside Ft Hood on a service call the day before that nut case crashed his truck into it and shot all those people. I carry but Texas did not have concealed carry at the time so there was no reciprocal agreement in place like there is now, concealed carry is new in Texas and it's main reason for being was lubey's and a doctor that watched BOTH her parents killed, she had a gun in her car but could not carry it concealed. If she had been armed she or some one else might have cut the body count quite a bit.
Israel has been using VOLUNTEER parents and relatives to provide security to schools over there, the count so far is 26 terrorists killed, no volunteers even wounded and we at talking volunteers with personal UZI's and other full auto firearms. The security is so tight the terrorists gave up and now use rockets instead of martyrs.
VA Tech instituted the no guns on campus law 4 weeks before that nut case wacko shot all those people, prior to that something like 65% of the students had guns on campus, oh that campus rule also disallowed off duty police attending classes from carrying on campus too.
These nut cases LOOK for the safest and most vulnerable targets they can. Florida had a crime wave, several dozen carjackings a week at their airports and car rental areas, the scum were virtually guaranteed by the US government to not run into armed tourists arriving from overseas flights. The could not count on that from domestic flights, when I would fly down there on service calls I'd check my .45 and 4 magazines with the flight crew, they would give it back when we got to Orlando, Miami or Jacksonville. Florida has a reciprocal agreement with Pa as do 37 other states last I looked.
When I went to HS in North New Jersey I would bring my 12ga to school during hunting season and my .22 Winchester during the target shooting clubs meetings and practices, put em in my locker, I'd even leave the 22 there for the whole semester so I did not have to carry it home and back, that way the only thing I had to carry was 2 500 round blocks of ammo every week, had to walk in the door off the bus with the action open and the teacher would look it over to make sure there were none in chamber or in the magazine.

I see the crap that goes on in schools and churches now a days and look at the people who run the schools and it bothers me. Back during the days of the draft the best way to get a deferment was to become a teacher or priest/minister, as a result there were alot of anti-gun, gays and others who took that route, those people are now the superintendents and running state and federal education programs. I never paid much attention to it then but now I understand why so many of my new teachers that replaced retiring ones were such flamers. Back then if you got into a fight with a kid the gym teacher would haul your butt into the gym, throw out two sets of boxing glove and tell you 'work it out', it worked, now a days they throw the book at BOTH kids, build unreal levels of resentment and then wonder why the kids flip out, kind of a no brainer to me..
Sorry did not mean to write a book but I'm one of the really pissed off silent majority.

richp 08-17-2008 06:55 PM

If I am not mistaken that was a blank, sounded like one, meant to drive home a point and I bet it worked :D I could almost guarantee the three sleeping know it all guys in the back row are awake :D :D :D If it was an incompetent discharge he'd be sweating bullets and filling out a ton of paperwork. There are no accidental discharges only incompetent and sloppy operators.

tiny terror 08-17-2008 07:32 PM

I think a volunteer force of security is fine, provided they are well trained, hell I don't know if they need to be armed with more than a baseball bat.

And JT, no need to yell and state the "texas thing" because that's a cop out. My son's school was one of the schools locked down when Columbine went down so I understand the need to secure our schools.

What I'm saying is that the teachers have enough on their hands. Lousy parents who think Junior should be passed along because he's a football star and kids who refuse to behave and learn. Teacher don't also need being a security guard forced on them, they're turning into baby sitters at this point any way. I say provide the school with highly trained, outside forces who patrol the school. I'd have no problem spending some time walking the halls (though we have no halls here in SoCal, all the schools are outside).

ccain 08-17-2008 07:43 PM

OK, Here's my take. 99% of the time schools need not protect themselves from an outside aggressor. They are going to be defending themselves from kids potentially bringing weapons to school and using them. Now, having said that... I am trained ex-military and if you draw down on me in a combat theatre you had better (no matter what age) be prepared to reap the consequences of your actions.
On the civilian side, of course my training would kick in, but I don't think I could shoot (to kill) a child.

Could you imagine a teacher having to fire at and possibly kill one of their students?

4Jeepn 08-17-2008 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richp (Post 256288)
If I am not mistaken that was a blank, sounded like one, meant to drive home a point and I bet it worked :D I could almost guarantee the three sleeping know it all guys in the back row are awake :D :D :D If it was an incompetent discharge he'd be sweating bullets and filling out a ton of paperwork. There are no accidental discharges only incompetent and sloppy operators.

Nope.. live round

Quote:

DEA Agent Shoots Self During Gun Safety Class

11:27 am EDT April 30, 2004 ORLANDO, Fla. -- A federal drug agent shot himself in the leg during a gun safety presentation to children and his bosses are investigating.

The Drug Enforcement Administration agent, whose name was not released, was giving a gun safety presentation to about 50 adults and students organized by the Orlando Minority Youth Golf Association, witnesses and police said.

He drew his .40-caliber duty weapon and removed the magazine, according to the police report. Then he pulled back the slide and asked someone in the audience to look inside the gun and confirm it wasn't loaded, the report said.

Witnesses said the gun was pointed at the floor and when he released the slide, one shot fired into the top of his left thigh.

"The kids screamed and started to cry," said Vivian Farmer, who attended the presentation with her 13-year-old nephew.

"Everyone was pretty shaken up," Farmer said. "But the point of gun safety hit home. Unfortunately, the agent had to get shot. But after seeing that, my nephew doesn't want to have anything to do with guns."

The agent was treated at Orlando Regional Medical Center after the April 9 shooting and returned to work, DEA special agent Joe Kilmer said.

Police ruled the shooting was an accident, but the DEA headquarters in Washington was still investigating, Kilmer said.

richp 08-17-2008 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Jeepn (Post 256304)
Nope.. live round

In which case incompetent and sloppy operator, idiot should have checked it himself. He got lucky and did not hurt anyone else. Gotta give him credit though for JW'ing it and just carrying on....

jeeptales 08-17-2008 09:16 PM

I still have a problem with that?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by richp (Post 256312)
In which case incompetent and sloppy operator, idiot should have checked it himself. He got lucky and did not hurt anyone else. Gotta give him credit though for JW'ing it and just carrying on....


There are dozens of protocols for handling a firearm I own a lot of guns we handle them in the house all the time. No one in my family has ever discharged a gun by accident. I still don't have any idea how it can happen if you know what you are doing and follow the most basic gun safety procedures???

An unloaded firearm is worthless.

And in case anyone has forgotten My wife is an VP for a middle school. She also spent 10 years working in one of the most gang infested parts of San Antonio. On seven occasions her school was under a lock down because and armed and Dangerous fleeing Fugitive was in the area. Twice they were apprehended on school ground fortunately they never got into the building.

My wife has a Texas Carry Permit but she is still on the fence about if she would or not if she were permitted to. But if you asked her... She wishes she had been armed during a few of those Lock downs. Maybe we could get the bad guys to send an email to the school district to give them advanced notice if they plan to come to the school.

I might be too much of a Gun nut... I have a lot of family and friend who are in all kinds of Law Enforcement. We shoot together a lot... If you ask them I think they feel I'd stand a much better then 50/50 chance in a gunfight.

Taking a life with deadly force is a huge responsibility, But if you were to threaten me or my family I have a fairly good feeling who would be leaving in a Body bag. I hope and pray I'm never forced to make that decision. But if I have too I will...

rebelBullDawg325 08-17-2008 09:25 PM

good i dea in my opinion.... i'll take a half way decent trained teacher with a handgun protecting students when theres a shooter in a school over nothing at all. and jsut the knowledge that there could be any number of teachers in your school that are toting could deter a shooting from happening. and if one does happen, it could stop it alot quicker and save countless lives. the only downside i see is that by allowing guns in the schools puts guns in the schools. a student could somehow get a gun away from a faculty member. but either way, i'll take my chances. i say go for it.

and no its not just a texas thing. GA just passed a law that makes it legal to carry a concealed weapon almost anywhere. even public transportation. and again, i'm for it.

foxinthemudd 08-17-2008 09:46 PM

I carry my gun to work every day :firedevil: so I don't see what the big deal is. :D

I don't see exactly why it would be horrible to have gun toting teachers but I can see the bad about them too. I think if we had someone with a CCH permit or some type of weapon on campus at virginia tech we could have solved it a hell of alot quicker than it was.

RatherBNarizona 08-17-2008 09:46 PM

just graduated from high school
I think people would be suprised with how much drugs and weapons people carry in school
it would amaze most people

foxinthemudd 08-17-2008 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richp (Post 256312)
In which case incompetent and sloppy operator, idiot should have checked it himself. He got lucky and did not hurt anyone else. Gotta give him credit though for JW'ing it and just carrying on....

I agree up to the point of givin him credit. there is no excuse for an A.D. thats why you check over and over again.

4point 08-17-2008 09:59 PM

I agree with teachers carrying, but only if fully trained as a Peace Officer with ongoing training for as long as they choose to carry.

ct-tj 08-17-2008 10:33 PM

A school is a soft target. If the teachers that want to carry are allowed to, thats enough of a deterrent right there. I think that they will need some specialized training and have to pass a test (shoot, no shoot type), but after that they should be good to go. I also agree with the frangible ammo clause, a loose bullet will reak havoc in such a confined space as a classroom.
If I was a teacher Id want to have a legal carry option, but Id probably carry anyway. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Schools are in no way safer than they used to be. As a student I carry a good knife with me at all times, its better than nothing, especially if your trained how to use it.

Just my .02

foxinthemudd 08-17-2008 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ct-tj (Post 256377)
If I was a teacher Id want to have a legal carry option, but Id probably carry anyway. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Schools are in no way safer than they used to be. As a student I carry a good knife with me at all times, its better than nothing, especially if your trained how to use it.

couldn't agree more...:punk:

sgnellett 08-17-2008 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ct-tj (Post 256377)
A school is a soft target. If the teachers that want to carry are allowed to, thats enough of a deterrent right there. I think that they will need some specialized training and have to pass a test (shoot, no shoot type), but after that they should be good to go. I also agree with the frangible ammo clause, a loose bullet will reak havoc in such a confined space as a classroom.
If I was a teacher Id want to have a legal carry option, but Id probably carry anyway. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Schools are in no way safer than they used to be. As a student I carry a good knife with me at all times, its better than nothing, especially if your trained how to use it.

Just my .02

Exactly right, my wife is a teacher and when she was pregnant with our youngest, a kid threw a pair of steel scissors across the room towards her, she hit the panic button, and nothing happened, because tte volume had been turned down in the office! As the saying goes, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!"

I can't see any school trying to REQUIRE teachers to carry, but almost every school I've been in has at least one teacher, administrator or someone who is ex military who would be more than capable of handling the responsibility.

Until last year, there was a retired 20 year Army MP at the other end of the hall from my wifes classroom, knowing her as I do, I'd be surprised if she didn't carry at least some times, and I'd be amazed if she didn't always have a gun in her car. Of course, she'd never advertise, so you'd never know for sure, but that's kinda the point w/ concealed carry.

As for myself, I haven't quite decided how I'll handle the restrictions here in Ohio when I start teaching next year, I suppose where I'm teaching will play some role in that decision.

amy 08-18-2008 01:15 AM

The teachers would not be required to carry a gun. Only the teachers that want to, and are qualified as per the rules stated, would be allowed to carry a gun. This would not be piling more on already overburdened teachers. This would be giving the teachers who want to be able to defend themselves and their students a means of doing so.

I think it's a fantastic idea. If teachers were allowed to carry guns in schools, just about all of the school shootings we've seen could have ended much quicker and with far less loss of life.

Having trained security on campus would be useless, unless you are planning on having an armed guard in each classroom, in each restroom, in each hall, at each door and several roving guards covering the grounds. Sounds more like a prison. Not to mention the cost of having a well trained army in each and every school.

For those who say "if the school is that dangerous..." Columbine and Virginia Tech were not considered dangerous places.

Taking guns away from law-abiding citizens only hurts the law-abiding citizens. It does not deter crime or criminals. We are not safer without guns. Only the criminals are safer when we, the law-abiding citizens, don't have guns.

skeeter 08-18-2008 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoSo (Post 256276)
It's a terrible idea. If the schools in that area have gotten to the point where the threat level is high enough, then they need to have professional, trained security (like police). A course here or there is not acceptable.

I take it you've never watched the police run their annual qualifications?
Most cops are not gun people, they carry a gun as part of their job but only because it's part of their job. Most cops never have to use a gun in the course of their career and so only take the training necessary to qualify once a year which isn't much.
As for the "threat level" being high enough to warrant security. most of the more infamous school shootings occurred at average middle class schools.
Even ignoring our domestically produced drug addled behaviorally modified assassins, try looking into what happened at Beslan. Muslim terrorists took over a school for 3 days, during those three days they raped the older girls, they murdered and dismembered male students and starved all their hostages until the military put an end to it by storming the school. 334 hostages died, among them were 186 children.
al qaeda has promised to bring Beslan to America and as soft as our schools are there's nothing to prevent it.

Quote:

Also, the number of things getting heaped on teachers as requirements are ridiculous. A teacher is there to teach your children academic subjects - not morals, manners or religion and is certainly not there to be a bodyguard.
I disagree with you on what our teachers should teach but the point is, they are not being required to carry a gun or act as body guards here. This looks to be completely voluntary to me. If they wish to have a means to defend not only themselves but also the children that have been entrusted to them then they will be allowed, not forced.

When my grandfather was in school they had marksmanship training on the rifle range behind his school as part of the regular curriculum. They didn't have very many school shootings back then.
When my father was in school they had firearms safety training as an elective and during hunting season most of the teachers and male students had rifles in their trucks. not much of a shooting problem then either.
I'm 39 years old, when i was in school we had hunter safety courses put on by the NRA and I was allowed to bring in my dads rifles to refinish in woodshop. Don't recall too many school shootings back then.
Today my kids can't even draw a gun without getting in trouble and we seem to have regular school shootings.


http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2...7454010uf3.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1...1371689rg2.jpg

tiny terror 08-18-2008 08:52 AM

Trained security would work. My uncle, retired Navy now police officer spent several years heading the security in a HighSchool/JuniorHigh in San Diego. He carried, ankle holster. He had very few problems that he spoke of (course, this is the man who flew in Nam and I didn't know until about two years ago), the most problems were with the parents who felt Junior should be allowed to express himself at all times.

jeeptales 08-18-2008 09:40 AM

Perhasps...
 
I'm not so bull headed I would not be willing to work something out...

We could take roll back all this blanket Title "1" stuff and quit giving out tons of free money to schools To me it as absolutely absurd to give a kid who owns 5 pair of $100.00 plus Nike Free Lunches... Or see kids in schools that have $500.00 to $1,200.00 grills in their mouths a free lunch.

My wife drives a 3 year old Escalade that we make payments on and I have to pay out of my pocket for everything my daughter wants to do at school. There are kids at my wife's school who get dropped of in New 2008 Caddies and their kids get free lunch because they go to a 100% Title 1 school!

Stop ridicules school spending and put the money in to adding effective security.

Put Corporal Punishment back in schools!

Do something about disruptive students that is truly unpleasant or eliminate them from the classroom so our teachers can do their jobs and teach our kids. And stop worrying about how kids FEEL and worry about what they are learning. And allow teachers to have more rights than students.

Go back to posting grades for the whole class to see and put competition back in the classroom!

Is this such a crazy idea?

richp 08-18-2008 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiny terror (Post 256441)
Trained security would work. My uncle, retired Navy now police officer spent several years heading the security in a HighSchool/JuniorHigh in San Diego. He carried, ankle holster. He had very few problems that he spoke of (course, this is the man who flew in Nam and I didn't know until about two years ago), the most problems were with the parents who felt Junior should be allowed to express himself at all times.

I've always felt that the airline industry and homeland security, etc would have a huge source of people if they used retired army, navy, usmc, AF and national guard people to fly as air marshals. Just give them the training for maintaining security on flights, pay them a days pay [MUTA] and give them the same retirement points and sgli they had on active and reserve status. Only requirement would be a minimum of two days a month, one day out and one day back in. It would be a lot cheaper than hiring full timers as full US Marshals.
Won't happen, govt wants to build empires and have huge budgets, the only way you get that is to expand your department with full time employees. They don't like volunteers like that, it's no good for measuring your empire against the other empire dept.

skeeter 08-18-2008 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiny terror (Post 256441)
Trained security would work.

What level of security?
Like Amy said, you'd need an officer in every classroom and at every entrance to equal the security offered by having the teachers prepared to defend themselves.

What level of training?
My dad was a supervisor for Pinkertons before they were bought out by Securitas. The training for their armed security was pathetic at best. I used to shoot with a few of em.
Their training consisted of basic firearm safety and timed shots into a target at close range, they had no active shooter training at all. Our 10 year old daughter could pass their qualifications.

Are you in favor of a realistically trained security force for every school in America?
If not, which ones do we leave vulnerable, and why?
What I mean by realistically trained, is they would be trained, equipped and posted to handle a Columbine or Beslan type scenario.

Columbine had a deputy on duty at the school when the shooting started.

Virginia tech had its own police force. I bet Professor Librescu would have gladly traded that police force for a gun.


http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/1264/gunfree2wq0.jpg

tiny terror 08-18-2008 11:40 AM

All I'm saying is my uncle, an officer, was in charge of security at a large school in San Diego. There were no "incidents" (as in shootings or violence of that nature), though there were a few arrests. Teachers only had to call him and he came to the class and stopped the bullshit. He has a staff of security who were not officers but trained. When things went south, they called my uncle who usually zip tied the hands and called for a squad car.

All those questions, Skeet, work just as well going the other way. No one knows if teachers being armed would help. No one knows how many teachers would actually arms themselves. You argue that we would have to have a guard in "every classroom", well then stand to reason every teacher must arm themselves for the kids to be safe. No?

Just because every scenario and question cannot be addressed does not mean that we do nothing. Guards are better than nothing. Trained guards are better than not trained guards. Police are better than guards. Parents who do their freaking jobs trump the whole set.

By the way, this thread was also posted on a writer's site I frequent.... and I'm debating it the other way ;)

tiny terror 08-18-2008 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richp (Post 256475)
I've always felt that the airline industry and homeland security, etc would have a huge source of people if they used retired army, navy, usmc, AF and national guard people to fly as air marshals. Just give them the training for maintaining security on flights, pay them a days pay [MUTA] and give them the same retirement points and sgli they had on active and reserve status. Only requirement would be a minimum of two days a month, one day out and one day back in. It would be a lot cheaper than hiring full timers as full US Marshals.
Won't happen, govt wants to build empires and have huge budgets, the only way you get that is to expand your department with full time employees. They don't like volunteers like that, it's no good for measuring your empire against the other empire dept.

Funny you mention Homeland Security. Said uncle decided to retire to Texas and didn't like being idle. He works now for Homeland Security down there near the Gulf.


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