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Dare2BSquare 09-02-2008 08:29 PM

Of Interest To Gun Owners
 
Quote:

Clueless Cops Crush Constitution
Posted: August 27, 2008
By Larry Pratt

A June 8 murder of two young people in rural Waleetka has provided the excuse for the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, or OSBI, to behave as if the Bill of Rights is an impediment to be overcome in order to employ effective police procedures.

In their search for the killer, the OSBI sent a letter to some 60 owners of .40-caliber handguns (the same caliber as used by the murderer) in the community where the victims had lived. The letter "invited" the owners to bring the guns in for testing.

This letter raises disturbing questions.

The first question is: What is the probable cause that would justify sending the letter to the selected handgun owners? If there were probable cause, why were no warrants obtained per the Fourth Amendment?

For the 20 or so owners who have not responded to the "invitation," will they be forced to testify against themselves (in violation of the Fifth Amendment) in some second phase of the investigation? If they do not comply with a warrantless "invitation," will the OSBI agents tell us that that now gives them probable cause? This sounds like a dragnet, not an investigation.

The second question is: Where did the police get a registration list of Oklahoma gun owners? This violation of the Second Amendment should outrage every gun owner, indeed, every freedom-loving citizen of the state.

The third question: Why does OSBI think that a registered gun will lead them to the murderer? I will repeat now what I told the media during the Beltway Sniper murder spree in 2002. Cops will find the murderer's gun (if they ever find it) when they find the murderer.

How can cops in the gun-friendly state of Oklahoma be so clueless? A policewoman called in to a Philadelphia talk show I was doing years ago. She stated that in her 26 years on the force she had never arrested a criminal who had used a registered gun.

OSBI agents should be sent back to school. What they are doing to Oklahoma gun owners is not only constitutionally offensive; it is a waste of time. They have put themselves into the same ridiculous club whose membership includes Montgomery County, Maryland's former police chief, Charles Moose.

Chief Moose led an investigation similar to that of the OSBI's. His officers got a registration list of Maryland suburban gun owners who had bought rifles that used the same caliber as the Muslims who were conducting their Beltway Sniper jihad. Moose was convinced that the murderer was a disgruntled white man (similar to the voters whom Obama complains bitterly that cling to their guns and Bibles) driving a white panel truck.

Well, I was right and Moose was wrong. When some truckers found the murderers, it turned out that they were two black converts to Islam who were asleep in their grey sedan. One of them was cradling the murder weapon.

Where did Chief Moose get his registration list? From the same place the OSBI got their registration list. Government agents can rummage through the names and addresses of gun owners in the name of fighting crime and they get this information from the records the federal government unconstitutionally requires firearms dealers to maintain.

Gun owners should be aware that historically, registration lists have never been used to solve crimes, but they have made dandy tools for disarming the subjects of a dictatorship. Think Cuba (under Fidel Castro), Uganda (under Idi Imin), Cambodia (under Pol Pot), China (under Mao Zedong), Germany (under Adolf Hitler) and Russia (under Vladimir Lenin).

Chief Moose and the OSBI have provided, and are providing, more proof (as if we needed it) that registration is not a crime-fighting tool.

The 1968 Gun Control Act imposed the decentralized, but very real, national registration system that now records all gun owners who buy a gun from a dealer. That is why Gun Owners of America has always opposed the 1968 Gun Control Act and has asked Congress to dismantle this threat to freedom a scheme that is not even effective in fighting crime.

Without an unconstitutional registration list at its disposal, OSBI would not have had this opportunity to trample on the Bill of Rights and embarrass themselves in public.
.

4point 09-02-2008 08:40 PM

Oh, I would have responded to that request........................................... ................................... with a hardy Hi-HO-F.U.

JeepersdoitDeeper 09-02-2008 08:43 PM

Can you get me a link to where that article came from. I'd like to pass it along to a friend of mine that works for the OSBI to see his thoughts on it.

Dare2BSquare 09-02-2008 08:47 PM

Don't know specifically. It was on a hunting forum I'm on. Try googling Larry Pratt.

Joe Dirt 09-03-2008 02:39 AM

I'm from CA (liberal capital of the universe) and I can't believe OK would do that. That's crazy and worthless. Even CA wouldn't try that. I'm a cop and there are over 40,000 people just in my beat. I've investigated as many as 7 murders in a single shift and I'm saying that kind of sillyness is worthless. Gangsters and scumbags DON'T register their stolen firearms! How about a records search for STOLEN guns of that type, cross referanced to parolees and dirtbags in that neighborhood. Then pay those people a visit. If you get even close someone will talk. There is no honor amoung theives.

JCS05Rubi 09-03-2008 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Dirt (Post 260866)
I'm from CA (liberal capital of the universe) and I can't believe OK would do that. That's crazy and worthless. Even CA wouldn't try that. I'm a cop and there are over 40,000 people just in my beat. I've investigated as many as 7 murders in a single shift and I'm saying that kind of sillyness is worthless. Gangsters and scumbags DON'T register their stolen firearms! How about a records search for STOLEN guns of that type, cross referanced to parolees and dirtbags in that neighborhood. Then pay those people a visit. If you get even close someone will talk. There is no honor amoung theives.

Joe, the Maryland State Police sent a tactical police force into a mans home, because he bought ammo of a different caliber than the guns that were registered in MD. Long story short, the guy had a C&R license, so he bought and traded a lot of different firearms, and he had JUST moved into the MD a year or two earlier and had bought his first handgun registered in MD. Most of his other firearms were registered in another state. The Maryland State Police asks businesses to "volunteer" a log book of ammo and firearm purchases based on your license info. Some places do it, some don't. Apparently, the gun store he used exclusively for his stay in MD did in fact keep logs. Since he hadn't registered his out of state handguns (not illegal here), the system "FLAGGED" him for a swat team visit to check out all his "Not registered" firearms at 12:30 am with no warrant.

This Oklahoma stuff does not suprise me at all. I am moving to Alaska :D

jjseel 09-03-2008 08:30 AM

:mad:


Oh, I guess this shouldn't bother me because I don't own any weapons of any sort. ;) So I guess hand loading is in the future?


How do our Representatives stay in Office?

amy 09-03-2008 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjseel (Post 260892)
:mad:
How do our Representatives stay in Office?

They've convinced the people that they're better off letting the government take care of them and think for them. "It's for your own good. Think of the children."

BTW, I lost all of my weapons, of any kind, in a boating accident.;)

JCS05Rubi 09-03-2008 06:16 PM

You have said that before Amy, and I still don't get it :( lol.

sgnellett 09-03-2008 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCS05Rubi (Post 260869)
Joe, the Maryland State Police sent a tactical police force into a mans home, because he bought ammo of a different caliber than the guns that were registered in MD. Long story short, the guy had a C&R license, so he bought and traded a lot of different firearms, and he had JUST moved into the MD a year or two earlier and had bought his first handgun registered in MD. Most of his other firearms were registered in another state. The Maryland State Police asks businesses to "volunteer" a log book of ammo and firearm purchases based on your license info. Some places do it, some don't. Apparently, the gun store he used exclusively for his stay in MD did in fact keep logs. Since he hadn't registered his out of state handguns (not illegal here), the system "FLAGGED" him for a swat team visit to check out all his "Not registered" firearms at 12:30 am with no warrant.

This Oklahoma stuff does not suprise me at all. I am moving to Alaska :D

How many people were killed in the raid?

sgnellett 09-03-2008 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCS05Rubi (Post 261065)
You have said that before Amy, and I still don't get it :( lol.

Sort of hard to verify, but if they are all gone, no need to look her for violations, officer... :cool:

JCS05Rubi 09-03-2008 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgnellett (Post 261084)
How many people were killed in the raid?

Too tired to get where you are trying to go with that statement, but zero from what I understood. I can get you a copy of the email the gentleman sent to the NRA lawyers when they asked him to do so after a phone conversation.

JCS05Rubi 09-03-2008 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgnellett (Post 261085)
Sort of hard to verify, but if they are all gone, no need to look her for violations, officer... :cool:

That's how I take the statement too, just wanted to make sure. I don't particularly care to be honest. I live in a non-firearm friendly state, and I frequent the most high profile pro 2A Maryland forums on the internet. I am already "flagged," so it really doesn't matter much what I do. I don't really care much either to be honest. Firearms are America's history. Personal and cultural self defense is a responsibility, not a right or a privilege. Call me what you what, "flag" me in your little computer system, my views aren't changing, and I am certainly not handing over my tool for self defense of my family and my self.

My "weapons" aren't in the ocean or lost in a sea of steel somewhere, they are sitting on my bed stand at the ready, one in the chamber. Do I WANT to use them? Of course not, but I (nor my family for that matter) will not be a victim to some criminal in my own house either.

ChrisTX 09-04-2008 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepersdoitDeeper (Post 260652)
Can you get me a link to where that article came from. I'd like to pass it along to a friend of mine that works for the OSBI to see his thoughts on it.

Clueless cops crush Constitution

Only article I could find, and it's the same one written by the same clown on the far, far right of the gun rights issue (a little too fanatical if you ask me). The OSBI obviously has zip in the form of leads in this case. For Oklahoma, this is probably a very high profile case, since it involves kids, and we're not talking a big town here; Weleetka, population 1,000. The letter probably asked people if they still had those guns, and if so, if they would voluntarily submit them for testing, but they were not required to do so. It's a very fine line, so the wording would have to be very cautious.

Most of the people who got the letters probably wouldn't be too concerned with it. I wouldn't be. I think we all know the BATF keeps our info on the 4473, but buying and selling individually is without much restriction and record. It's a shot in the dark for the BI, but they are grabbing at straws. They want the public to know they are exhausting every measure they possibly can, before this becomes a cold case.

When you go from having a team of 10 investigators on a case, and you pull that down to one guy, it's a big deal, and you have to justify that to the public. When you can say, "Look, we've tried every imaginable thing we can think of to generate any lead we could, and we've come up with nothing. At this point, this case will remain open until something further develops, but it's no longer a priority." Imagine the blow to the family of these kids when this happens.

It's not the beginning of gun registration. This guy who wrote the article is a quack if you ask me, and I have a vested interest in the second amendment and its interpretation.

Joe Dirt 09-05-2008 02:06 PM

When you say "Flagged" what do you mean? While I can run a name and see if a firearm is registered to a person, it only means just that. Lots of good people have guns! Does the term "Flagged" mean something is done different when the police contact you? Frankly I've always been much more concerned by people who have unregistered stolen firearms; like gangsters.

ChrisTX 09-05-2008 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Dirt (Post 261678)
When you say "Flagged" what do you mean? While I can run a name and see if a firearm is registered to a person, it only means just that. Lots of good people have guns! Does the term "Flagged" mean something is done different when the police contact you? Frankly I've always been much more concerned by people who have unregistered stolen firearms; like gangsters.

Are you talking about checking 4473s that person has filed? That's the only way I can think to do it, unless it's a state specific search. Just ask BATF for 4473s in that zip code, then narrow it down by caliber and type. I don't know what ability BATF has to search like that, as I'd never brought myself to that level. :) NLETS would just allow an article search by serial number, and flagging is just by person through VGTOF, TTPO, or NCIC to prevent a purchase in the NICS.

Joe Dirt 09-07-2008 07:04 PM

State specific in CA. I can run a name for weapons registered through DOJ. The only time it's done is when serving a search warrant and wanting to know about guns in the residence. Drug dealers don't register guns, so it's more so you can tell the boss you covered the bases.

rebelBullDawg325 09-07-2008 10:03 PM

what i really wanna know is do they actually think that joe killer is going to bring his gun, the murder weapon, in to be tested to see who's gun was used in the murder? they might as well place an add in the paper that says to turn himself in and expect joe killer to comply

skeeter 09-07-2008 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCS05Rubi (Post 261169)
That's how I take the statement too, just wanted to make sure.

She simply means that if the cops were to come around asking about weapons she would tell them they were all lost in a boating accident.
She has many weapons, she has more guns than I do and she almost always has one near to hand and ready to go.
And she has had to use one though she didn't have to fire.

amy 09-07-2008 10:34 PM

Yeah, what he ^ said. ;)

tarheel 09-08-2008 10:08 AM

I haven't owned a gun in 30 yrs. I had one stolen from my parents house along with other firearms and jewelry. We are pretty sure they targeted the house and knew us because they hit while we were in church on a Wed evening. I felt like I had contributed to the problem by allowing my gun to be stolen. Even though the other guns were locked up they managed to pick the lock. Took a long time to get over that feeling and to replace it with anger for being violated.

amy 09-08-2008 10:34 AM

We were robbed too, Tarheel. That's when I really got into handguns (before that I was more of a rifle person). With Skeeter working nights, the kids and I are alone when a lot of the criminals and crazys are active, especially with our neighbors tipping them off about our comings and goings. I am not going to leave myself unable to defend my children and myself.

ChrisTX 09-08-2008 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebelBullDawg325 (Post 262350)
what i really wanna know is do they actually think that joe killer is going to bring his gun, the murder weapon, in to be tested to see who's gun was used in the murder? they might as well place an add in the paper that says to turn himself in and expect joe killer to comply

As stupid and ridiculous as that sounds, there are probably some instances where that would work.

tarheel 09-08-2008 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amy (Post 262427)
We were robbed too, Tarheel. That's when I really got into handguns (before that I was more of a rifle person). With Skeeter working nights, the kids and I are alone when a lot of the criminals and crazys are active, especially with our neighbors tipping them off about our comings and goings. I am not going to leave myself unable to defend my children and myself.

I have resisted that feeling for many years (living in Chapel Hill had a lot to do with that) but feel that the time has come to get a side arm. My wife is home with my 17 yr old son and 20 yr daughter during the 7 nights I work. I work 7 nights straight making my schedule easy to figure out. Next yr she will be alone with both going to college. We live in a big neighborhood and our street isn't easily accessed (many intersections/turns) but I am seeing more traffic from people that don't live nearby. All this adds up to a feeling that protection is a necessity.

amy 09-08-2008 05:34 PM

If you don't want a gun, get a dog. It would be company for your wife once the kids are gone and a great deterrent for people poking around where they don't belong.

Joe Dirt 09-08-2008 06:10 PM

I live in SoCal (which is a huge Getto anymore). I have two big dogs and guns. I wont go anywhere without one. I wish the state would make it easier for GOOD citizens to do the same. Criminals have lots of confidence when they KNOW they are the only ones with guns. Thats why places like Utah and Arizona have low crime rates. People can and will protect themselves. their property and neighbors. People watch murders here and refuse to even be a witness out of fear. Its hard to blame them when the criminals rule the streets.

tarheel 09-08-2008 07:04 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by amy (Post 262529)
If you don't want a gun, get a dog. It would be company for your wife once the kids are gone and a great deterrent for people poking around where they don't belong.

We have 2 dogs which are great as early warning but not much on deterrent!
Attachment 4746

Attachment 4747

ChrisTX 09-09-2008 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amy (Post 262427)
We were robbed too, Tarheel. That's when I really got into handguns (before that I was more of a rifle person). With Skeeter working nights, the kids and I are alone when a lot of the criminals and crazys are active, especially with our neighbors tipping them off about our comings and goings. I am not going to leave myself unable to defend my children and myself.

Most house burglars are active during the day. Most car burglars are active during the night. Confrontation usually only comes when they weren't expecting you to be home. A gun is just for those rare instances when you do run into one of those types when YOU are the intended victim, not the property. Most crimes are not caught in the act.

amy 09-09-2008 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheel (Post 262558)
We have 2 dogs which are great as early warning but not much on deterrent!

Aw come on, Tarheel, get you a real dog, like one of these guys...
http://www.massivedogz.com/Images/tanker%20004.jpg

I'm just kidding, your dogs are really cute and I'm sure they're a lot of company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisTX (Post 262739)
Most house burglars are active during the day. Most car burglars are active during the night. Confrontation usually only comes when they weren't expecting you to be home. A gun is just for those rare instances when you do run into one of those types when YOU are the intended victim, not the property. Most crimes are not caught in the act.

It's not as rare as you seem to think. We have certifiable crazies that "were never dangerous before" living down the street, entire apartment complexes that are one big meth factory across the street from grade schools and the whole region seems to think our town is the best place to release their registered sex offenders. I have no doubt other cities are just as bad.

ChrisTX 09-09-2008 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amy (Post 262751)
Aw come on, Tarheel, get you a real dog, like one of these guys...
http://www.massivedogz.com/Images/tanker%20004.jpg

I'm just kidding, your dogs are really cute and I'm sure they're a lot of company.


It's not as rare as you seem to think. We have certifiable crazies that "were never dangerous before" living down the street, entire apartment complexes that are one big meth factory across the street from grade schools and the whole region seems to think our town is the best place to release their registered sex offenders. I have no doubt other cities are just as bad.

Those look like Filas. Big, old slobbery dogs. :)

99% of criminals DON'T want to get caught. It's the 1% you have to be mindful of. While your property might not be the safest, in most instances, you are.

But don't take that as me saying I'm a gun control advocate; quite the contrary. Carry, and carry often. :)


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