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-   -   Long arm kits (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/long-arm-kits-228510.html)

Hhscobra11 03-18-2013 11:00 AM

Long arm kits
 
I have a 1999 Tj and would like to put a 4 or 6 inch long arm kit on it and was just wondering if anyone has any recommendations for them I know there's alot of kits out there . Also pics would be great

PStov98TJ 03-18-2013 11:06 AM

Just a question, why do you want a super high LA kit versus a LCOG short arm rig? I've read that the LCOG short-mid arm set-ups preform just as well or better than LA kits because the LA's are prone to hanging up on obstacles.

Hhscobra11 03-18-2013 11:13 AM

I dont really know much about the long arm kits besides they can flex more than a regular lift and I want a 6 Inch lift because I have a 4 right now and would like to be a little bit higher but either a 4 or six inch long arm kit is what I would like to get

Imped 03-18-2013 11:20 AM

Close your wallet and educate yourself. Once you understand things a bit better, reconsider the subject.

Rubicon Owners Forum - View topic - Long arms vs. short arms?
Suspension Geometry - JeepForum.com
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/long...ts-213698.html

Hhscobra11 03-18-2013 12:07 PM

That doesn't answer my question^^^

Imped 03-18-2013 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hhscobra11 (Post 3518755)
That doesn't answer my question^^^

I'm well aware. However, those threads will help answer questions once you start looking for information that actually matters.

EMTJEEP 03-18-2013 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hhscobra11 (Post 3518755)
That doesn't answer my question^^^

I run a long arm setup but that is only because I go to pismo/glamis and the mojave. Don't do much rock crawling so I don't have to get worried about getting hung up.

I would look into the links Imped has put up and educate yourself on the different lifts, if I didn't go to the desert so much I would do a short arm like Imped did, his jeep is a beast.

The kit I run is GenRight 3 Link Front Link Suspension Kit and GenRight 4 Link Rear Suspension Kit Those are just the cost for arms and brackets and you still have to buy everything else to make it complete. And they are the only company that I would run long arms unless you go with RK ultimate long arm kit.

Just read up and make sure you fully understand the differences and that you really want to go with long arms. And try to listen to Imped about things he says, he wouldn't say them unless he knew what he is talking about and that they are valid points.

Imped 03-18-2013 12:55 PM

Thanks EMT...and just to clarify, my personal TJ isn't on 'short arms.' Your rig would do just fine in the rocks, your arms don't hang down nearly as much as some off-the-shelf junk out there. I don't necessarily attach certain arm lengths to where the Jeep plays but you're correct that shorter arms will get hung up less.

This is a couple years ago--custom 'modified short arm' triangulated suspension
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...r/IMAG0661.jpg

This is recent--triangulated 'mid' arm (about 23" lowers)
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...psb57554ae.jpg

Clears pretty well
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps78e6a152.jpg

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps49a67086.jpg

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps5d5f47ac.jpg

Feels great at high speeds
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps436e6ac9.jpg

This is where the rubber meets the road--if you spend money on a suspension without having a clue about suspension geometry, climbing walls like this will result in broken parts, a flop or a wet seat....or a combination of the three.
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps4aa5a54f.jpg

And OP, please explain to me how longer arms can 'flex more.' The axle will only go as far as the shocks allow it. There's way, way more to suspension than you realize. That's exactly why I provided you those links above.

PStov98TJ 03-18-2013 01:09 PM

Imped, can you post up a pic of your CA's to maybe give the OP and everyone else visual as to what you're referring too about. I understand the basic concept of a triangulated set up but maybe it'll serve everyone well to actually see your set up and how you have the arms tucked up, at the correct angles for your caster and pinion angles (I know it'll vary jeep to jeep). I tried to look for it on your build thread but all the pictures were down.

Jerry Bransford 03-18-2013 01:11 PM

One more piece of the puzzle is that some people incessantly push LCG but LCG (low center-of-gravity) rigs don't have sufficient ground clearance for many trails. I have a 4" Currie suspension lift on my rig with 35" tires together with a belly up skidplate pan so my TJ has more ground clearance than most rigs... but it's still not enough for many of the trails I enjoy where a LCG rig wouldn't get past the first obstacle.

LCG is fine for many of the easier trails but when the trails get tough, you need better ground clearance than a LCG build will get you. And that's not to say a non-LCG rig has to have a high COG either... my non-LCG TJ is built so it handles severely off-camber trails just fine.

Imped 03-18-2013 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PStov98TJ (Post 3518967)
Imped, can you post up a pic of your CA's to maybe give the OP and everyone else visual as to what you're referring too about. I understand the basic concept of a triangulated set up but maybe it'll serve everyone well to actually see your set up and how you have the arms tucked up, at the correct angles for your caster and pinion angles (I know it'll vary jeep to jeep). I tried to look for it on your build thread but all the pictures were down.

Uppers are triangulated--that's what keeps the axle laterally located
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...pscedeaf02.jpg

Nothing hangs below the axle tubes, which knocks out two birds with one stone: high clearance + flatter arms
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps58fd9fd1.jpg


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 3518975)
One more piece of the puzzle is that some people incessantly push LCG but LCG (low center-of-gravity) rigs don't have sufficient ground clearance for many trails. I have a 4" Currie suspension lift on my rig with 35" tires together with a belly up skidplate pan so my TJ has more ground clearance than most rigs... but it's still not enough for many of the trails I enjoy where a LCG rig wouldn't get past the first obstacle.

I dislike the "LCG" term....I think it's rather pointless and doesn't actually define anything of value. I like numbers so here are mine:

20" from ground to bottom of frame rail
18.5" from ground to bottom of belly pan
26" from ground to bottom of rear bumper
101.5" wheelbase
5" up travel in the front
6" up travel in the rear

I think numbers like that provide a much better picture than just saying your rig is "LCG" or not, like many do. It sits where I want it to provide the travel numbers that I want. While it is pretty low when compared to many Jeeps on here, especially considering it's on 37" tires, I would probably go up 1" if wheeling JV. And, as you know, breakover angle is only one thing. Clearance under the bumpers, under the axles, under the control arm mounts, and departure and approach all matter just as much....and I've built mine to maximize those numbers. So, when looking at the numbers, you may have an extra 1" at the frame but I would venture to bet I have more under the axles and under the control arm mounts....and I know I have more under the rear bumper. Just points to give a more well-rounded analysis of true clearance :thumb:

PStov98TJ 03-18-2013 01:34 PM

So let me get a few things straight, it's your front and rear uppers that are triangulated right? And they connect to the frame rails then come to a point on top of the diff at a truss to create the "triangulated" arms? And the triangulated arms eliminate the need for a track bar because they also function to keep the axle centered. Does the jeep have different road manners because of the triangulated arms and no track bar? Sorry for all the questions again, I've gotta be somewhat annoying... But I really appreciate the help.

GoldenSahara00 03-18-2013 01:44 PM

Sub'd :popcorn:

Imped 03-18-2013 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PStov98TJ (Post 3519044)
So let me get a few things straight, it's your front and rear uppers that are triangulated right? And they connect to the frame rails then come to a point on top of the diff at a truss to create the "triangulated" arms? And the triangulated arms eliminate the need for a track bar because they also function to keep the axle centered. Does the jeep have different road manners because of the triangulated arms and no track bar? Sorry for all the questions again, I've gotta be somewhat annoying... But I really appreciate the help.

No....only the rear is triangulated. The front uses a track bar, which is absolutely required in a coil/link suspension due to not only its job of keeping the axle laterally located but also its function in the steering. It provides all lateral leverage against the steering box and also maintains a proper relationship with the drag link. If you run a drag link (ie, run a steering box) then you need a track bar, otherwise you'll have constant bump steer. The only common situation in which you can ditch the track bar is when you ditch the drag link, which = full hydraulic steering. I prefer having a steering box so that I can drive on the road without any issues. My front suspension is called a 3 link--two lowers, only one upper instead of two, and a track bar.

As for the road manners it rides, drives, and handles better than stock. Don't confuse offroad ability with onroad manners. There doesn't need to be an inverse correlation between the two. IndyJeepMan has ridden in it plenty, he'll tell you the same thing.

PStov98TJ 03-18-2013 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imped (Post 3519128)
No....only the rear is triangulated. The front uses a track bar, which is absolutely required in a coil/link suspension due to not only its job of keeping the axle laterally located but also its function in the steering. It provides all lateral leverage against the steering box and also maintains a proper relationship with the drag link. If you run a drag link (ie, run a steering box) then you need a track bar, otherwise you'll have constant bump steer. The only common situation in which you can ditch the track bar is when you ditch the drag link, which = full hydraulic steering. I prefer having a steering box so that I can drive on the road without any issues. My front suspension is called a 3 link--two lowers, only one upper instead of two, and a track bar.

As for the road manners it rides, drives, and handles better than stock. Don't confuse offroad ability with onroad manners. There doesn't need to be an inverse correlation between the two. IndyJeepMan has ridden in it plenty, he'll tell you the same thing.

Thanks alot! This is all starting to come together. I found another one of your threads on JF that I'm gonna read a time or two as well. I'm very interested in going to this set up. Just gotta put in the research first so I can do it right the first time.

CONZILA 03-18-2013 02:14 PM

3 Attachment(s)
OP here is a 06 rubicon with a 6 inch long arm kit and 35's it is a rough country kit and works well for my purpose's although I don't have any rocks to play on, The kit is not great by any stretch but it takes a beating at the cliffs off road park about 5-10 times a year and I just replace the bushings in the control arms their 15$ a piece. I bought this jeep with it already on there but I would go the route these guys are talking about when I change things up to a custom mid arm lift in the future. Do tons of searching and homework so you will not waste money or regret your purchase In the end its your call.

Hhscobra11 03-18-2013 02:34 PM

Ok so is there and short arm kit out there that compare to a Long arm kit?

Imped 03-18-2013 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hhscobra11 (Post 3519293)
Ok so is there and short arm kit out there that compare to a Long arm kit?

In what ways are you wanting them to compare? And what 'long arm kit' are you looking at? They come in all different flavors, from junk to excellent and everything in between. A well-built, well-executed short arm suspension will outperform most off-the-shelf long arm kits in every category.

You're still not asking questions that are gonna get you anywhere. Fortunately, your forum mates are.

Hhscobra11 03-18-2013 02:51 PM

I'm not really looking to climb rocks or any of that all Im really looking for is to have longer travel and only thing I knew of was to get a long arm kit . And as for as brand I just want something that will last and I won't have to worry about breaking something and I don't know who offers a good long arm kit ... And I can't make my own kit. That's why I'm looking at long arm kits
What kits out there are better than others

Imped 03-18-2013 03:03 PM

More travel = longer shocks = longer springs = other components that can hold up to and support it. You're sliding off a slippery slope without even understanding what's on the other side. Again, I've provided you with some nice resources to get started so that you can at least gain a decent understanding before blindly spending your money. Use those resources.

I get by fine with 11" travel. There's more to a good suspension than travel. I highly doubt you need more travel, especially if you don't play in rocks. Conversely, there are ways to gain travel without touching the control arm length or raising your Jeep higher. But to do that you've got to learn some stuff and think outside the box.

UnlimitedLJ04 03-18-2013 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hhscobra11 (Post 3519351)
And I can't make my own kit.

why not? what's stopping you?

needing more education? needing to learn suspension geometry? needing to learn how to weld? needing to learn how to use tools?

all of those can be overcome. there was a time when Imped did not know squat about this stuff. he didn't take some magical course on it. nobody did the work for him.

he started reading and educating himself. he learned what he needed to know, and now he's trying to help you do the same.

Jeeper_Kreeper 03-18-2013 03:29 PM

So what is the difference between a short arm kit and a long arm kit? What kind of wheeling would require a long arm kit?

UnlimitedLJ04 03-18-2013 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeeper_Kreeper (Post 3519504)
So what is the difference between a short arm kit and a long arm kit? What kind of wheeling would require a long arm kit?

generally, "short arms" refers to using stock control arm mounts. "long arm" refers to not using stock control arm mounts, and using longer control arms. hence the name. Basically any bolt up "long arm kit" sacrifices good suspension geometry and clearance in favor of bolt-up ease of installation.

and there is no wheeling that would require a "long arm kit". it's about preference of geometry...like the anti-squat, roll center, etc; and what type of axle travel arc you are tolerant of.

and if you don't know what all those terms are and how they relate to suspensions, then start reading...

Imped 03-18-2013 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeeper_Kreeper (Post 3519504)
So what is the difference between a short arm kit and a long arm kit? What kind of wheeling would require a long arm kit?

Any length arm can do fine in any terrain. Does that answer your question?

CarolinaBound 03-18-2013 03:44 PM

late sub

Jeeper_Kreeper 03-18-2013 03:47 PM

Cool thanks everybody

CMA_Rider 03-18-2013 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 3518975)
One more piece of the puzzle is that some people incessantly push LCG but LCG (low center-of-gravity) rigs don't have sufficient ground clearance for many trails. I have a 4" Currie suspension lift on my rig with 35" tires together with a belly up skidplate pan so my TJ has more ground clearance than most rigs... but it's still not enough for many of the trails I enjoy where a LCG rig wouldn't get past the first obstacle.

LCG is fine for many of the easier trails but when the trails get tough, you need better ground clearance than a LCG build will get you. And that's not to say a non-LCG rig has to have a high COG either... my non-LCG TJ is built so it handles severely off-camber trails just fine.

Not everyone lives where you do, terrain varies from region to region. Where I live a LCG rig will out perform a non-LCG rig, just check out the competition crawlers, theres a reason that they sit so low. This past saturday I was wheeling with a friend that has a 6" lift and 35s, locked front and rear, I was having less trouble than he was, at half the lift, 33s and open diffs. Also Long Arms rule this area, all well built rigs around here are running em and I have yet to see one get hung up on em

Imped 03-19-2013 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMA_Rider (Post 3521295)
Not everyone lives where you do, terrain varies from region to region. Where I live a LCG rig will out perform a non-LCG rig, just check out the competition crawlers, theres a reason that they sit so low. This past saturday I was wheeling with a friend that has a 6" lift and 35s, locked front and rear, I was having less trouble than he was, at half the lift, 33s and open diffs. Also Long Arms rule this area, all well built rigs around here are running em and I have yet to see one get hung up on em

I know of several very nicely built short and mid arm rigs in TN that would put 'standard' LA rigs to shame, all else being equal. I wheeled Golden Mountain a couple years ago and my suspension performed wonderfully. Some of the lower-hanging LA setups would've had some trouble.

One of the nicest TJ's in TN
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...9/100_0790.jpg

Short arms
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...p%2009/042.jpg

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...9/100_0839.jpg

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...p%2009/073.jpg

For every blanket statement like "long arms rule this area", I guarantee I can find an exception. It's such an open-ended statement and you need to understand that a suspension can be built to provide great clearance and performance, regardless of arm length.

jgorm 03-19-2013 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imped (Post 3522863)
For every blanket statement like "long arms rule this area", I guarantee I can find an exception.

Ok, try this. A jeep that is setup for high travel and is only dune jumping.

I'll agree that most jeeps don't need a LA setup, but there are some that would benefit from it. People need to realize that they need to setup their jeep for the stuff that they do, and not try to set it up for johnson valley when they live 1000 miles away.

CMA_Rider 03-19-2013 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imped (Post 3522863)
I know of several very nicely built short and mid arm rigs in TN that would put 'standard' LA rigs to shame, all else being equal. I wheeled Golden Mountain a couple years ago and my suspension performed wonderfully. Some of the lower-hanging LA setups would've had some trouble.

One of the nicest TJ's in TN
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...9/100_0790.jpg

Short arms
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...p%2009/042.jpg

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...9/100_0839.jpg

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...p%2009/073.jpg

For every blanket statement like "long arms rule this area", I guarantee I can find an exception. It's such an open-ended statement and you need to understand that a suspension can be built to provide great clearance and performance, regardless of arm length.

I understand that, and Ive wheeled there too, but I have yet to see how SA's are better than high clearance LA's on a LCG rig. It is not an open ended statement, theres a reason that all the crawlers and hill climb rigs are running LA's. Show me how a SA can out flex a LA. Arm length does play a role in supension and offroad ability, or there would be a super short arm setup:banghead:


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