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-   -   To regear or not to regear??? (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/to-regear-or-not-to-regear-22867.html)

Timberman 11-04-2008 07:46 PM

To regear or not to regear???
 
Guys,

I have been laboring over this for quite some time.. I have slated April 2009 as my time frame to install my ARB lockers in the front and the rear and I just don't know if I need to regear.. I have been told my countless people that I should go with 4:56 gears while I am down there, but I just don't want to lose her road manners. I have also been told that 4:10 (4:11 whatever it takes) would barely improve my performance, so why even bother..

Anyway, I am lifted 4" w/ 33X12.50s w/ 3:73 gears and finally let my buddy drive it over the weekend. He is stock w/ 3:09 and 31X10.50s (same brand of tires I have) and he couldn't notice a difference in performance between mine and his..

What do you guys think?

-Timber

bardenk1 11-04-2008 07:54 PM

i have said this a ton of times lol don't regear make up for it in the transfercase aka doubler 4:1 kit and you can do it for cheaper. read up on some of my posts i have listed a bunch of options i personally think you mine as well keep the gears cause lets face it your going to eventually blow up your np231 and want something better

timmy2004 11-04-2008 11:44 PM

What kind of tranny do you have?

Timberman 11-05-2008 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmy2004 (Post 279536)
What kind of tranny do you have?

5 Speed.. NV3550 I think!

ct-tj 11-05-2008 10:39 AM

I drove on 33's with 3.07 for a long time. Eventually I put lockers in and went to 4.10 for better mileage and road manners. She hasnt let me down yet, but theres not alot of crawling up here, mostly muddy fire roads.

Jerry Bransford 11-05-2008 12:16 PM

Since you drive your rig on the road and it's not just a trail rig, I would definitely regear your axles to 4.56 which is a great all-around ratio for 33" tires and a manual transmission. I definitely would avoid 4.10 for 33" tires, I drove that combination for a couple years and I hated it... especially after driving a friend's TJ that had 33" tires and 4.56.

You'll love the ARB Air Lockers, but do resist the temptation to go with their opitional heavier-duty air lines. Instead, stick with the standard air line that comes with the locker. Even ARB's management says the same thing, warning that use of their heavier air lines could rip out fittings if snagged on the trail that would turn a simple splice of their standard duty lines to a potentially non-repairable fix on the trail. ARB only brought out the heavier-duty air lines at the insistance of some who refused to believe the standard duty lines were strong enough... but they are. Also make sure the installer has experience installing ARB air lockers, they don't do well reliability-wise when the installer wasn't experienced enough to do the installation right and route the air lines properly.

Enjoy! :)

timritchieblue 11-05-2008 01:04 PM

"I definitely would avoid 4.10 for 33" tires, I drove that combination for a couple years and I hated it... especially after driving a friend's TJ that had 33" tires and 4.56. " was that with the auto, or stick? i just bought 4:10's, and thinking i might want 4:56? i gots the 3 speed auto

02Prove 11-05-2008 01:16 PM

What about for a stick and 33s? 4.10 or no? I do a little bit if highway travel and while I know there isn't going to be a perfect set-up I would like a decent balance between the two.

ExDementia 11-05-2008 01:24 PM

ive been pondering the same question, Im pretty sure i have 3.07's (or whatever gearing came stock) but while i get pretty decent gas mileage, im in 4th alot of the time on the freeway. what do you guys think?

Jerry Bransford 11-05-2008 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 02Prove (Post 279744)
What about for a stick and 33s? 4.10 or no? I do a little bit if highway travel and while I know there isn't going to be a perfect set-up I would like a decent balance between the two.

Again, 4.56 would be the way I'd go. My TJ is a daily driver and when I was running 33" tires, I regeared to 4.10 and it proved to be a mistake. I regretted not taking all the advice I got at the time to go with 4.56. The rpm difference between the two is slight but bigger tires need slightly more rpms to compensate for them. On the highway, I was always having to downshift with the 4.10 gears on even gentle grades. Go with 4.56, you won't regret it. With my present 4.88 and 35" tires, rpms are similar to 4.56 and 33" tires and it's ideal for a manual transmission. :)

jeeprok99 11-05-2008 06:27 PM

You may want to look at what the gear ratio split is for the ARB. if you dont regear and buy the ARB, will it fit when you upgrade to 4.10 or 4.56? I think the Dana 44 ARB is 3.92+. something to consider.

00 grtj 11-05-2008 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 279760)
Again, 4.56 would be the way I'd go. My TJ is a daily driver and when I was running 33" tires, I regeared to 4.10 and it proved to be a mistake. I regretted not taking all the advice I got at the time to go with 4.56. The rpm difference between the two is slight but bigger tires need slightly more rpms to compensate for them. On the highway, I was always having to downshift with the 4.10 gears on even gentle grades. Go with 4.56, you won't regret it. With my present 4.88 and 35" tires, rpms are similar to 4.56 and 33" tires and it's ideal for a manual transmission. :)

what about an auto trans? would 4.56 be the ideal for that and is there alot of difference in gas mileage from 4.10 to 4.56?

timmy2004 11-05-2008 09:37 PM

for a 3 spd, I would suggest 4.56. For the 4spd with OD, get the 4.88's, thats what I have and its great.
Its kind of hard to calculate the mpg's b/w 4.10 and 4.56. I mean it really depends on alot of things. However, you need to consider the difference b/w hgher rpm's vs. lower rpm's. Of course higher rpms will use slightly more fuel, but lower rpms cause the engine to work harder, thus, using more fuel. There is more involved here, but I am not very good at explaining things like that. This is a basic explanation.
Personally, I would rather run at higher rpms and put less stress on the engine. It really comes down to which gears will cause the power to transfer from the engine to the wheels most efficiently.
hopefully, Jerry will chime in here. Hes really good at explaining this.

Timberman 11-06-2008 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 279760)
Again, 4.56 would be the way I'd go. My TJ is a daily driver and when I was running 33" tires, I regeared to 4.10 and it proved to be a mistake. I regretted not taking all the advice I got at the time to go with 4.56. The rpm difference between the two is slight but bigger tires need slightly more rpms to compensate for them. On the highway, I was always having to downshift with the 4.10 gears on even gentle grades. Go with 4.56, you won't regret it. With my present 4.88 and 35" tires, rpms are similar to 4.56 and 33" tires and it's ideal for a manual transmission. :)

Jerry,

Won't my gas mileage suffer significantly if I go with 4:56? I have read several charts which state 3:73 w/ 33" tires realizes the best fuel economy where the 4:56 gearing realizes best "All Around" performance?

Thanks sir!

-Timber

Jerry Bransford 11-06-2008 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timberman (Post 280068)
Jerry,

Won't my gas mileage suffer significantly if I go with 4:56? I have read several charts which state 3:73 w/ 33" tires realizes the best fuel economy where the 4:56 gearing realizes best "All Around" performance?

Charts are only a rough guideline and should not be relied on for 100% of the information on choosing an appropriate ratio. First, the rpm differences between 4.11 and 4.56 are insignificant. Second, the slightly higher (NOT HIGH!) rpms of 4.56 will help keep the engine in the power band and you won't be stepping on the gas or downshifting as much to get up even gentle grades like you would with 4.10 (I have first-hand experience there). Third, your frustration level with 4.10 would be higher than it would be with 4.56 for the reasons just stated.

Check out the rpms for those two ratios...

4.56 = 2568 at 70 mph
4.10 = 2309 at 70 mph

Trust me that at 70 mph with 33" tires, 2309 rpms are too low for the engine and it is close to lugging. That's why I hated 4.10 when I was running 33" tires. So while 2309 rpms might seem better to those used to driving cars, it doesn't work for a vehicle like a Wrangler that is both heavy and has the aerodynamics of a barn door, not to mention its bigger and much heavier tires.

When I went to 35" tires, I regeared to 4.88 when I was still running my 5-speed and at 70 mph, my engine ran about 2750 rpms which was ideal because the larger tires required a slightly higher rpm than what you'd want for 33" tires. So the goal is not to restore engine rpms to what they were when the TJ came out of the factory with 30" tires, that wouldn't work because the engine has to work harder to roll bigger tires due to their added leverage against the drivetrain, their higher rolling resistance and weight, and the fact a lifted TJ is harder for the engine to push against the windstream.

So no, I don't believe your gas mileage will suffer with 4.56 since the higher rpms at that ratio will help the engine so it's not working so hard, since the rpms are still not even close to being excessive. And, again, you won't be constantly tempted to push on the gas pedal harder or downshift as much when going up even a gentle grade.

So I still stand by my 4.56 recommendation for 33" tires. Not to mention that for offroading, it'll be awesome. :)

CVFD76 11-06-2008 11:34 AM

i got 35s on my 04, with 4.56 and i love the setup, it gives good power offroad, and at the same time great accel on. a buddy of mine has a 97 completly stock, (not that i drag race my jeep), but we were drivin around town one night, i beat him off the line and got a good length and a half on him before i missed 3rd and he caught me :doh:

Jerry Bransford 11-06-2008 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CVFD76 (Post 280121)
i got 35s on my 04, with 4.56 and i love the setup, it gives good power offroad, and at the same time great accel on. a buddy of mine has a 97 completly stock, (not that i drag race my jeep), but we were drivin around town one night, i beat him off the line and got a good length and a half on him before i missed 3rd and he caught me :doh:

If you like 35" tires with 4.56, try driving a TJ with 35" tires and 4.88 gearing sometime. :)

timmy2004 11-06-2008 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 280112)
Charts are only a rough guideline and should not be relied on for 100% of the information on choosing an appropriate ratio. First, the rpm differences between 4.11 and 4.56 are insignificant. Second, the slightly higher (NOT HIGH!) rpms of 4.56 will help keep the engine in the power band and you won't be stepping on the gas or downshifting as much to get up even gentle grades like you would with 4.10 (I have first-hand experience there). Third, your frustration level with 4.10 would be higher than it would be with 4.56 for the reasons just stated.

Check out the rpms for those two ratios...

4.56 = 2568 at 70 mph
4.10 = 2309 at 70 mph

Trust me that at 70 mph with 33" tires, 2309 rpms are too low for the engine and it is close to lugging. That's why I hated 4.10 when I was running 33" tires. So while 2309 rpms might seem better to those used to driving cars, it doesn't work for a vehicle like a Wrangler that is both heavy and has the aerodynamics of a barn door, not to mention its bigger and much heavier tires.

When I went to 35" tires, I regeared to 4.88 when I was still running my 5-speed and at 70 mph, my engine ran about 2750 rpms which was ideal because the larger tires required a slightly higher rpm than what you'd want for 33" tires. So the goal is not to restore engine rpms to what they were when the TJ came out of the factory with 30" tires, that wouldn't work because the engine has to work harder to roll bigger tires due to their added leverage against the drivetrain, their higher rolling resistance and weight, and the fact a lifted TJ is harder for the engine to push against the windstream.

So no, I don't believe your gas mileage will suffer with 4.56 since the higher rpms at that ratio will help the engine so it's not working so hard, since the rpms are still not even close to being excessive. And, again, you won't be constantly tempted to push on the gas pedal harder or downshift as much when going up even a gentle grade.

So I still stand by my 4.56 recommendation for 33" tires. Not to mention that for offroading, it'll be awesome. :)


Thats what I meant to say. Thanks Jerry. :doh:

ExDementia 11-06-2008 12:20 PM

Man i definitely need to regear,
im about about 2500 RPM going 70...IN FOURTH :banghead:
in fifth ill be at around 1900, and slowing down


funny thing is, i can still spin my tires off the line:confused:

Timberman 11-06-2008 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 280112)
Charts are only a rough guideline and should not be relied on for 100% of the information on choosing an appropriate ratio. First, the rpm differences between 4.11 and 4.56 are insignificant. Second, the slightly higher (NOT HIGH!) rpms of 4.56 will help keep the engine in the power band and you won't be stepping on the gas or downshifting as much to get up even gentle grades like you would with 4.10 (I have first-hand experience there). Third, your frustration level with 4.10 would be higher than it would be with 4.56 for the reasons just stated.

Check out the rpms for those two ratios...

4.56 = 2568 at 70 mph
4.10 = 2309 at 70 mph

Trust me that at 70 mph with 33" tires, 2309 rpms are too low for the engine and it is close to lugging. That's why I hated 4.10 when I was running 33" tires. So while 2309 rpms might seem better to those used to driving cars, it doesn't work for a vehicle like a Wrangler that is both heavy and has the aerodynamics of a barn door, not to mention its bigger and much heavier tires.

When I went to 35" tires, I regeared to 4.88 when I was still running my 5-speed and at 70 mph, my engine ran about 2750 rpms which was ideal because the larger tires required a slightly higher rpm than what you'd want for 33" tires. So the goal is not to restore engine rpms to what they were when the TJ came out of the factory with 30" tires, that wouldn't work because the engine has to work harder to roll bigger tires due to their added leverage against the drivetrain, their higher rolling resistance and weight, and the fact a lifted TJ is harder for the engine to push against the windstream.

So no, I don't believe your gas mileage will suffer with 4.56 since the higher rpms at that ratio will help the engine so it's not working so hard, since the rpms are still not even close to being excessive. And, again, you won't be constantly tempted to push on the gas pedal harder or downshift as much when going up even a gentle grade.

So I still stand by my 4.56 recommendation for 33" tires. Not to mention that for offroading, it'll be awesome. :)

Jerry!

I am sold... 4:56 it is! Thanks for your great advise sir!

I will have both axles regeared when I do the ARB lockers in April..
Regarding a comment you made earlier about the ARB hoses; I actually heard from a couple of retailers who advised me to get the fortified lines.. When I called ARB they echoed your statement about the standard lines being perfect. I will be using the "Beefier" CKMA12 compressor as I want to be able to air my tires as well. They said the compact compressor just doesn't have the "Balls" to air-up tires.

Thanks again Jerry!

-Timber

Jerry Bransford 11-06-2008 12:52 PM

Timber, few ARB dealers understand the reasoning for staying with the standard air lines so without them really giving much thought about it, it would be no surprise that some advise going with ARB's heavier lines. ARB's FAQ section even strongly recommends the standard air lines over their heavier duty air lines. Glad you called ARB directly to verify what I was advising, you can't always trust dealers on everything they say. :)

Triple88a 11-06-2008 06:03 PM

I have 35" tires, 3.73 gears a 4.0 and a 5 speed with bunch of other engine mods.. i get better mpg with the big tires than i did with the stock 30s.. People over exaggerate how "slow" the rig will be if you dont regear. I easily keep up.

4point 11-06-2008 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple88a (Post 280323)
I have 35" tires, 3.73 gears a 4.0 and a 5 speed with bunch of other engine mods.. i get better mpg with the big tires than i did with the stock 30s.. People over exaggerate how "slow" the rig will be if you dont regear. I easily keep up.

That's all good, but wouldn't you do a gear change if you could. Your clutch is disappearing at a rapid rate which will kill your MPG's theory.

flattietj 11-07-2008 12:21 AM

i have 39" tires and 5.38s and i get 24 mpgs from my cummins tow rig.....my advice is to skip regearing and buy a tow rig and trailer and then you can wheel anywhere you want and get good mileage

Timberman 11-07-2008 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 280159)
Timber, few ARB dealers understand the reasoning for staying with the standard air lines so without them really giving much thought about it, it would be no surprise that some advise going with ARB's heavier lines. ARB's FAQ section even strongly recommends the standard air lines over their heavier duty air lines. Glad you called ARB directly to verify what I was advising, you can't always trust dealers on everything they say. :)

Yeah Jerry; my motto is "Trust, but verify." Besides, I work with retailers large and small in a different industry and have found that many are absolute "Gurus" when it comes to the products they sell, but others..... NOT SO MUCH!

So far; I have dealt with ARB, BANKS, and WARN.. The Guys at ARB and Warn were absolutely great! I am also a little partial to West Coast guys (don't ask me why). As a matter of fact; I was planning on selling my Warn 8274 against all of my buddies advise until I spoke with an older gentleman at Warn who had been running that winch since the 80s.. I had no desire to keep it as it is bulky and I wanted more of a "Streamlined" look on the front of the Jeep. The gentleman at Warn quickly educated me as to why the 8274 amongst the best winches on the planet and then sent me a new manual, parts list, and a bunch of stickers.. BOY, I sure love stickers; I just do not know where to put all of them.. Simply because he acted like he gave a S**T, will keep me using Warn until I find a good reason to do otherwise. Funny, I get more compliments on the Winch than I do anything else on the Jeep..

As for Banks; they were alright, but a little pushy.. I called once and apparently, they took my number from "Caller id" and used it to call me back on a daily basis in an attempt to sell me direct at a higher price.. I get a little "turned-off" when people call relentlessly... I'm sure you can appreciate that..

-Timber


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