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-   -   diagnostic help needed (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/diagnostic-help-needed-240443.html)

Big Sarge 05-05-2013 06:24 PM

diagnostic help needed
 
I had another thread on this but just locked it so that I could start a new one with everything wrapped up into one. So here goes.......

I have a 98 TJ 4 CYL 5 speed manual. This Jeep is my DD and runs fine all the time unless I drive it for longer periods of time. By longer periods of time I am talking 2+ hours of straight driving. It will be driving fine and all of a sudden it just shuts off on me. When this happens, I push in the clutch and turn the ignition off then back on, let the clutch out and it starts back up, every time, and goes on about it's way until it does it again. Again this only happens after driving longer periods of time. I have also noticed that it happens more frequently when ambient temperatures are higher, it is also (almost) isolated to when the engine is under a strain like going up hills on the highway. I say almost because it did happen once going down a hill but only after having climbed a large incline.

I changed the CPS out a few weekends ago and there was absolutely no change in the way it acts. I also have ran sea foam through the fuel. Today on my way back to my house on my 3 hour 45 minute drive, it did the cut off start back up on the highway twice right about 2 hours into the drive. It did not do it again until about 10 miles from my house. When it did it the last time it would start back up like it always does but had zero throttle response. I got off an exit and limped it to the shoulder, and thought I was done. Again it would start and idle perfect just would not take any throttle. So I locked it in 4hi and limped it on the shoulder about 700 feet to a gas station. I let my dog out to do her business, I went inside the store to use the restroom (so in total it set for 3-5 minutes) fired it up and drove like nothing ever happened the last 10-12 miles home. It is not throwing any CEL lights or codes. I am completely lost as to what to do next to try and fix it. And the problem is the only way to tell if anything fixed it, is to drive for 2+ hours.... Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

M109Pilot 05-05-2013 06:47 PM

TPS? It might be a long shot. I am having a very similar problem with my 06 LJ. I changed my CKP also, that didnt work. I was talking with a friend on the phone today and he was telling me about a similar problem and it turned out to be the TPS. I guess it cant be cleaned, just replaced.

Jason

Big Sarge 05-05-2013 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M109Pilot (Post 3722626)
TPS? It might be a long shot. I am having a very similar problem with my 06 LJ. I changed my CKP also, that didnt work. I was talking with a friend on the phone today and he was telling me about a similar problem and it turned out to be the TPS. I guess it cant be cleaned, just replaced.

Jason

I have given it some thought. I guess at this point I will have to give it a shot. So yours also ONLY does this on long trips?? That's what really confuses me.

M109Pilot 05-05-2013 07:18 PM

Thats the only difference from what your experiencing. Its all very weird.
Check out my thread here, Weird thing happened tonight. Stalling problem?? - JeepForum.com

Tell me what you think.

Jason

Big Sarge 05-05-2013 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M109Pilot (Post 3722749)
Thats the only difference from what your experiencing. Its all very weird.
Check out my thread here, Weird thing happened tonight. Stalling problem?? - JeepForum.com

Tell me what you think.

Jason

I read through that whole thread. I will give it a shot as they are fairly inexpensive. I don't think it will fix it but I really have no clue what will so I have to try something. I make this long drive every other weekend.

M109Pilot 05-05-2013 08:15 PM

When I was talking with the service rep at my local jeep dealer, he was telling me that they could diagnose problems even though you dont get a OBD code. I have been contimplating taking it to them because mine wont throw a code.

Jason

Big Sarge 05-05-2013 08:21 PM

That has also crossed my mind. I am also a mechanic but in the Army and most of my experience has been with tanks and diesel engines. I can bet the dealership can diagnose without codes but I can only imagine that they will have to make the Jeep duplicate the problem, which like I said only happens after a few hours of driving. Even then it is a very small window to do any kind of troubleshooting. So I guess I will continue to replace sensors and see what results I get and keep track of them, and if, in the end I have to resort to a dealership, I can at least tell them everything I have changed.

Big Sarge 05-06-2013 09:51 AM

Any other opinions?

Big Sarge 05-07-2013 07:52 PM

Well yesterday I was looking at the sensors on the throttle body and saw what I thought was bare wire sticking through the tape on the harness going into the map sensor. I started to peel the tape back a little and found out that the connector had been spliced back in. The exposed part that I saw was solder on the one wire. In the process of just peeling back the tape the soldered wire just popped right out of the but connector. I cut those but connectors and just did wire to wire and taped them back up. May just be me, but It even feels like the Jeep even runs stronger now. We will see on the next long drive if it was the problem or not.

M109Pilot 05-07-2013 08:20 PM

Sounds like you may have fixed your problem. Good luck!
I am still troubleshooting mine though. Tomorrow I will be trying a known good TPS to see if that helps. If not, Ill do the same thing with an AIC. I tried a known good coil rail today and that didnt do a damn thing for my jeep.

Jason

Big Sarge 05-21-2013 02:48 PM

Well this past weekend I did a little tune up (spark plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor button) went ahead and replaced the TPD and thought it fixed the problem. About 3 hours into my drive and it cut off on me. Now it only did it the one time and was perfectly fine the rest of the drive. Something is still not completely right!!! Any other input?!?!?

Big Sarge 05-21-2013 05:04 PM

Anybody?

itscakes 05-21-2013 05:28 PM

Did you check the alternator and charging system?

Big Sarge 05-21-2013 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itscakes (Post 3779213)
Did you check the alternator and charging system?

I have not had the alternator checked but it drives perfectly fine as far as the charging goes. I put brand new terminal ends on a few weeks ago just to be sure I had good clean contacts.

Big Sarge 05-22-2013 08:17 AM

I am going to pull the IAC today and clean it up real good and thinking about changing the MAP sensor. Anybody think this has any effect on my problem? I'm just out of ideas right now.

Big Sarge 06-28-2013 04:41 PM

Time for an update. I have changed out the upstream O2 sensor. Because of a deteriorated catalytic converter I replace the entire exhaust system. The only sense or I have not changed is the map sensor. Today it is about 90F. I am on my journey home about four hours and have been having the exact same issue as the original problem. Seriously about to sell this jeep. Please anybody with an idea let me know.

Big Sarge 06-28-2013 06:16 PM

Okay so towards the end of my journey I did a little more experimenting. No matter what gear I am and if I go over 3000 RPMs it shuts down on me. When it drops back below 3000 RPMs it runs just fine. Does that help anybody help me narrow this problem down?

flflash 06-28-2013 06:19 PM

Sounds like you have a electrical component that's getting hot and shutting off but you say if you attempt to restart it it starts immediately with out having to wait for a component to cool.
Any chance you have an ignition switch that's going bad and the ecm contact is opening? Then when you move the key the contacts remake the connection?
Once the engine quits before you move anything is the check engine light on or off? It should be on when the keys on and engines not running if it doesn't come on when the engine quits I'd suspect and ignition switch.

JimsJeep 06-28-2013 06:51 PM

Giving this some thought and was thinking possibly the coil pack is going bad, any thoughts ?

Update

Just found this article and it seems to fit right in to your issues.

Notice bad ignition coil symptoms before they start to affect your engine. An ignition coil that is in the first stages of failing will usually produce a steady but low voltage spark. When this happens, the flame in the combustion process is weaker, resulting in a lower percentage of the fuel being ignited during the period that it is in the cylinder during the compression and power stroke.
This situation will introduce more unburned fuel into the exhaust system. This will be recognized by the computer in response to the free oxygen within the exhaust system signaled by the oxygen sensor. In response to this signal being out of parameters, the computer will lean the mixture to prevent damage to the converter and illuminate the check engine light.
Fuel economy will suffer and black smoke and fuel smell will be ejected from the exhaust. Generally the idle will suffer and the engine will become harder to start. This will also tend to foul the spark plugs, which will rapidly induce a misfire.

In many cases the coil has the tendency to quit working and fail once it reaches a certain temperature. It may work for several hours, depending on outside temperature and other contributing factors already mentioned before failing. Once the coil has failed, it may take an hour or more to cool before service is once again restored. This will make the car impossible to start.

Big Sarge 06-29-2013 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3909324)
Sounds like you have a electrical component that's getting hot and shutting off but you say if you attempt to restart it it starts immediately with out having to wait for a component to cool.
Any chance you have an ignition switch that's going bad and the ecm contact is opening? Then when you move the key the contacts remake the connection?
Once the engine quits before you move anything is the check engine light on or off? It should be on when the keys on and engines not running if it doesn't come on when the engine quits I'd suspect and ignition switch.

Well yesterday when the engine would cut out a few times I did not have to turn the ignition off. Just simply pushed in the clutch and it was good to go again. CEL does come on when I first turn they key on but does not illuminate when it starts having these issues.

Big Sarge 06-29-2013 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimsJeep (Post 3909409)
Giving this some thought and was thinking possibly the coil pack is going bad, any thoughts ?

Update

Just found this article and it seems to fit right in to your issues.

Notice bad ignition coil symptoms before they start to affect your engine. An ignition coil that is in the first stages of failing will usually produce a steady but low voltage spark. When this happens, the flame in the combustion process is weaker, resulting in a lower percentage of the fuel being ignited during the period that it is in the cylinder during the compression and power stroke.
This situation will introduce more unburned fuel into the exhaust system. This will be recognized by the computer in response to the free oxygen within the exhaust system signaled by the oxygen sensor. In response to this signal being out of parameters, the computer will lean the mixture to prevent damage to the converter and illuminate the check engine light.
Fuel economy will suffer and black smoke and fuel smell will be ejected from the exhaust. Generally the idle will suffer and the engine will become harder to start. This will also tend to foul the spark plugs, which will rapidly induce a misfire.

In many cases the coil has the tendency to quit working and fail once it reaches a certain temperature. It may work for several hours, depending on outside temperature and other contributing factors already mentioned before failing. Once the coil has failed, it may take an hour or more to cool before service is once again restored. This will make the car impossible to start.

I replace the ignition coil a few weeks ago.

JimsJeep 06-29-2013 07:14 AM

I tried

Big Sarge 06-29-2013 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimsJeep (Post 3910758)
I tried

On and I do appreciate your help. I did not mean that negative what so ever. I have just changed so much stuff it's annoying at this point.

biggus35 06-29-2013 08:19 AM

Years ago I had the exact same symptoms on an RX-7. Was 300 miles from home when it happened but luckily was only a couple of blocks from the Mazda dealership. Made it into the dealership, told the service manager what was happening and he fixed it in 10 minutes. Turned out it was the fuel filter. The logic, as I remember him explaining it at the time, was that older cars have more residual "crap" in the tank and the lines, and on long drives the "crap" has more time to be sucked up into the orifices of the filter and eventually clog it up. When it cuts off the "crap" is released and falls back out of the orifices and you can crank the car and drive again. Made sense to me at the time and the fix was only $25 for installation of the new filter. Never had another problem after that.

Not sure if/how this might apply on a jeep but thought I would throw it out there since nothing else seems to be working for you.

Tjdude08 06-29-2013 02:53 PM

You said one time when it started it wouldn't rev or acted like it wasn't getting any gas. When you changed your distributor cap and rotor did you change your cam position sensor? Mine quit on me for 2 weeks I tried changin everything. Took out the cam sensor cleaned it off and it ran but acted like it wasn't getting gas. Replaced it and she's running fine.

Big Sarge 06-29-2013 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjdude08 (Post 3911682)
You said one time when it started it wouldn't rev or acted like it wasn't getting any gas. When you changed your distributor cap and rotor did you change your cam position sensor? Mine quit on me for 2 weeks I tried changin everything. Took out the cam sensor cleaned it off and it ran but acted like it wasn't getting gas. Replaced it and she's running fine.

Mine is a 98 withe the 2.5 4 cylinder and as far as I know they do not have a cam position sensor.

flflash 06-29-2013 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Sarge (Post 3910727)
Well yesterday when the engine would cut out a few times I did not have to turn the ignition off. Just simply pushed in the clutch and it was good to go again. CEL does come on when I first turn they key on but does not illuminate when it starts having these issues.

Sorry I didn't do a very good job of explaining. You said " I push in the clutch and turn the ignition off then back on, let the clutch out and it starts back up, every time, and goes on about it's way until it does it again."
After it's died before you touch the key, Is the CEL on or off? It should be on anytime the ECM is powered up and the engine is not running, if it's not on the ECM is either not powered up or has an internal fault.
I've seen many of the TJ's have contact problems inside the electrical part of the ignition switch causing various electrical problems. Sometimes just moving the key will temporarily remake the connection inside the switch till it gets hot again.
Just something to look at I know your getting frustrated I hope you find the issue soon.

Big Sarge 06-29-2013 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3911715)

Sorry I didn't do a very good job of explaining. You said " I push in the clutch and turn the ignition off then back on, let the clutch out and it starts back up, every time, and goes on about it's way until it does it again."
After it's died before you touch the key, Is the CEL on or off? It should be on anytime the ECM is powered up and the engine is not running, if it's not on the ECM is either not powered up or has an internal fault.
I've seen many of the TJ's have contact problems inside the electrical part of the ignition switch causing various electrical problems. Sometimes just moving the key will temporarily remake the connection inside the switch till it gets hot again.
Just something to look at I know your getting frustrated I hope you find the issue soon.

This has been the case in the past. However yesterday it just lost engine power, I pushed in the clutch let the clutch out and it was good to go again. Did not have to touch the ignition at all yesterday. Not sure if you saw the later post about it cutting out at anything over 3000 rpms??

Tjdude08 06-29-2013 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Sarge (Post 3911706)

Mine is a 98 withe the 2.5 4 cylinder and as far as I know they do not have a cam position sensor.

It should be under the cap. It's a black plate with little metal sensor. Some call it cam some call it plate sensor. I'd put a scanner on it first. It's $66 at napa. So wouldn't want to waste money if its not.

Tjdude08 06-29-2013 04:45 PM

Distributor cap that is. Sorry


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