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-   -   Single side vs. dual side adjustable CA (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/single-side-vs-dual-side-adjustable-ca-240717.html)

elclipo 05-06-2013 04:52 PM

Single side vs. dual side adjustable CA
 
I am wanting (needing) to get new arms and was set on Savvy's set until I saw the Metalcloaks and their duroflex joint. However, the savvy set is adjustable on both ends while the metalcloak is not.

Any real advantages/disadvantages to having a dual setup versus a single setup? I would think the dual setup is the way to go but I'm torn between that and what seems to be the better joint.

Big Cole 05-06-2013 05:37 PM

Adjusting pinion angle without having to remove the arms from your rig is a great feature. I have no complaints with my savvy arms

climbit 05-06-2013 05:52 PM

The duroflex joint is not nearly as good for an OffRoad rig as the currie Johnny joints found in the savvy arms.

The double adjustable feature is just gravy that makes install and pinion adjustment so much more awesome.

elclipo 05-06-2013 09:38 PM

I can see the advantage of the dual adjustment. I have also seen great reviews about the dutaflex providing a superior ride both on and off road. I haven't had the luxury of anything but stock, and would like to only make the one purchase and be done for good.

doclouie 05-06-2013 11:22 PM

Go with the dual real "johnny joints" in the Savvy setup.

Jaxon1023 05-06-2013 11:45 PM

My next good bonus I'm getting metalcloaks

elclipo 05-07-2013 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by climbit (Post 3726112)
The duroflex joint is not nearly as good for an OffRoad rig as the currie Johnny joints found in the savvy arms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doclouie (Post 3727471)
Go with the dual real "johnny joints" in the Savvy setup.

What makes the "real" JJs better than the MC Duroflex joints?

climbit 05-07-2013 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elclipo (Post 3728585)

What makes the "real" JJs better than the MC Duroflex joints?

They are actually designed with OffRoad use and suspension articulation in mind.

UFOtestpilot 05-07-2013 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by climbit (Post 3728955)

They are actually designed with OffRoad use and suspension articulation in mind.

And the duroflex joints are designed for what? Having been doing some research on these two joints for a bit, I'm really curious as to your reasoning and logic behind these statements.

geiman 05-07-2013 10:41 AM

I would have no problem running the Duroflex on my rig, but that being said I would have a little more faith if Metalcloak themselves would run them on their own KoH rig.

I haven't seen any accounts of the joints wearing out so you can't really complain much about them yet, but you would think if you had a hot new joint out you would throw it into whatever destructive testing you could find to see how tough it really is.

I'll stick with my JJs though; no issues whatsoever with them, and you don't have the "mystery" surrounding them like you do with the Duroflex joints since they're much more proven.

climbit 05-07-2013 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFOtestpilot (Post 3728974)

And the duroflex joints are designed for what? Having been doing some research on these two joints for a bit, I'm really curious as to your reasoning and logic behind these statements.

Just look at the design. It's begging for suspension bind and premature wear.

They are asking the bushing to deflect and warp in order for the suspension to articulate. That is Not what you want in an OffRoad joint.

They are designed for mall crawlers.

They replaced the best part of the JJ, the center ball and replaced it with the worst part of a bushing, the bonded sleeve.

elclipo 05-07-2013 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by climbit (Post 3729737)

Just look at the design. It's begging for suspension bind and premature wear.

They are asking the bushing to deflect and warp in order for the suspension to articulate. That is Not what you want in an OffRoad joint.

They are designed for mall crawlers.

They replaced the best part of the JJ, the center ball and replaced it with the worst part of a bushing, the bonded sleeve.

So in your opinion their weakness is the bonded center sleeve? That is done with the purpose of self centering the joints. Is the JJ "free" ball and free articulation a more important parameter than the self.centering ability?

I am not tryingto argue, I am really trying ti get as much info as I can.

climbit 05-07-2013 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elclipo (Post 3730568)

So in your opinion their weakness is the bonded center sleeve? That is done with the purpose of self centering the joints. Is the JJ "free" ball and free articulation a more important parameter than the self.centering ability?

I am not tryingto argue, I am really trying ti get as much info as I can.

For an OffRoad suspension, yes.

The JJ ball is captured between two urethane cups, it is allowed to articulate in any direction. That's what is superior.

UFOtestpilot 05-07-2013 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by climbit (Post 3731177)

For an OffRoad suspension, yes.

The JJ ball is captured between two urethane cups, it is allowed to articulate in any direction. That's what is superior.

Can you please show us how the MC joint does not allow omni-directional articulation? I'm also not arguing, I've just seen it do what I think you're saying it cannot do, so I'm thinking perhaps I'm confused about what you are trying to say exactly.

climbit 05-08-2013 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFOtestpilot (Post 3731816)

Can you please show us how the MC joint does not allow omni-directional articulation? I'm also not arguing, I've just seen it do what I think you're saying it cannot do, so I'm thinking perhaps I'm confused about what you are trying to say exactly.

It's not that it cannot articulate, even a rubber oem bushing can articulate. The problem is you are asking the bushing material to deflect to do it. That will cause wear. WIth the JJ, the urethane cups that act as the bearing race, do not deflect. They simply capture the center ball, which is free to rotate on its own. This means the only wear you are getting is from the ball moving on the cup, and with the new chemically polished center balls and a periodic application of grease, a sett of JJs will outlast your jeep, all other factors remaining the same.

I'm sure the duroflex joints will last longer than a bushing, but not nearly as long as a JJ.

Also, any material they are using with a low enough durometer to allow the deflection needed to get the 34 degrees of misalignment they are claiming is going to be soft enough to give the same kind of loose suspension feel as the oem bushings.

Their only real argument for these bushings is that they eliminate more NVH than a JJ. Regardless of whether or not that is true, although I doubt it, it's not going to be enough to matter. I repeatedly switch back and forth between a lifted rig running JJs on all the CAs and a completely stock jeep using stock rubber bushings, there is no noticeable change in NVH between the two.

Having had about 30-40k miles of street time and probably 50 or more trail days on a set of JJs with no noticeable wear, and no noticeable change in NVH from them to an oem jeep bushing, I would never waste my time with these.

kjeeper10 05-08-2013 05:08 AM

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/ho...ks-up-1482467/

:popcorn:

geiman 05-08-2013 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elclipo (Post 3730568)
a more important parameter than the self.centering ability?

The self centering ability is pretty much useless. The only time that is useful is if you have bent arms that need to stay centered. Otherwise, it's just a pointless marketing ploy.

geiman 05-08-2013 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjeeper10 (Post 3732411)

There's truly nothing there that hasn't been said a million times. Imped is a great, knowledgeable guy and I do appreciate his review, but it really changes nothing in terms of this thread. I'll be more impressed with it when he has 50K miles on them with a good bit of hard wheeling. He's been plagued with problems and getting things finalized from his last "rebuild", so he hasn't put many miles on the Duroflex joints. Nothing too impressive about brand new joints doing their job. If you're looking for a long term review to give the Duroflex joints a plug, there are better examples.

There have supposedly been some actual long term reviews on some of the JK forums, but even still the joints are relatively new and who knows what kind of abuse those people put the joints through.

But regardless of all this, the main question asked was about double or single adjustable arms. I'd take double adjustable over single any day of the week. Some will argue you only set your pinion angle one or two times and never touch it again, but for me that hasn't been the case. I've done things in stages, and have adjusted my pinion angle more times than I could keep track of. Having double adjustable arms makes this very quick and simple to do.

All Terrain JK 05-08-2013 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geiman (Post 3732604)
I'd take double adjustable over single any day of the week. Some will argue you only set your pinion angle one or two times and never touch it again, but for me that hasn't been the case. I've done things in stages, and have adjusted my pinion angle more times than I could keep track of. Having double adjustable arms makes this very quick and simple to do.

With out a doubt. The people that say "you only set pinion angle once" must have completed their builds all in one shot. Even adding a 100lbs spare tire and carrier can change the PA as ride height changes.

kjeeper10 05-08-2013 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geiman (Post 3732604)

There's truly nothing there that hasn't been said a million times. Imped is a great, knowledgeable guy and I do appreciate his review, but it really changes nothing in terms of this thread. I'll be more impressed with it when he has 50K miles on them with a good bit of hard wheeling. He's been plagued with problems and getting things finalized from his last "rebuild", so he hasn't put many miles on the Duroflex joints. Nothing too impressive about brand new joints doing their job. If you're looking for a long term review to give the Duroflex joints a plug, there are better examples.

There have supposedly been some actual long term reviews on some of the JK forums, but even still the joints are relatively new and who knows what kind of abuse those people put the joints through.

But regardless of all this, the main question asked was about double or single adjustable arms. I'd take double adjustable over single any day of the week. Some will argue you only set your pinion angle one or two times and never touch it again, but for me that hasn't been the case. I've done things in stages, and have adjusted my pinion angle more times than I could keep track of. Having double adjustable arms makes this very quick and simple to do.

I completely agree

Jaxon1023 05-08-2013 09:05 AM

So who makes the best doubles?

geiman 05-08-2013 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxon1023 (Post 3732837)
So who makes the best doubles?

Figure out what joint you want and go from there; the rest really doesn't matter as it's hard to screw it up.

I'm running Savvy's aluminum double adjustable arms myself and am very happy.

Jaxon1023 05-08-2013 09:13 AM

Well I was going to go metal cloak aswell but double does seem a lot easier to use

Black Magic Brakes 05-08-2013 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxon1023 (Post 3732861)
Well I was going to go metal cloak aswell but double does seem a lot easier to use

I do lots of suspension work and was initially not that thrilled with our Double Adjustable arms until I did a few installs. I'm sold. I'm not in touch with the pricing nuances, but the convenience factor alone makes them worth a fair bit more to me.

Other than that aspect, they aren't worth any more or less than any other arm.

elclipo 05-08-2013 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3732986)
I do lots of suspension work and was initially not that thrilled with our Double Adjustable arms until I did a few installs. I'm sold. I'm not in touch with the pricing nuances, but the convenience factor alone makes them worth a fair bit more to me.

Other than that aspect, they aren't worth any more or less than any other arm.

This is exactly why I asked this question. The convenience factor for now and future mods seems to be worth the extra cost (if any).

Jaxon1023 05-08-2013 10:44 AM

Are these adjustable to use on a 6" lift if I ever decide to go that route. I've got a 4" right now

geiman 05-08-2013 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxon1023 (Post 3733152)
Are these adjustable to use on a 6" lift if I ever decide to go that route. I've got a 4" right now

By "these" you mean which in particular?

6" of lift on most any of these short arms is a bit much, though not saying it isn't possible. What are you trying to do that warrants that much?

Jaxon1023 05-08-2013 11:13 AM

I'm a mall crawler such just a tall jeep. I'm 38 years old and know all about the pros and cons and always wear my flame suit when coming onto forums lol. Ultimate goal may possibly be 38's so just don't want to have to buy 4 control arms all over again.


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