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-   -   New axle shaft... New bearings... 1 week later.... (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/new-axle-shaft-new-bearings-1-week-later-241984.html)

Teague242 05-11-2013 04:19 PM

New axle shaft... New bearings... 1 week later....
 
It's been apart 5 times in the last year. Finally decided to try another axle shaft. I believe it's an alloy USA. Was dripping black oil since I brought it back from the shop. Take it off and look what I find....

Seriously, I am really getting tired of this rear. I'm going to research and learn how to completely rebuild the rears on these jeeps. I'm done relying on others....

tangofox007 05-11-2013 04:26 PM

Did the shop forget to install the bearing cup?

Or maybe the retainer nuts didn't get properly tightened.

Teague242 05-11-2013 04:28 PM

The bearing race? I'm not sure. Going to find out though. I think it wasn't greased or something

tangofox007 05-11-2013 04:36 PM

I cannot really tell from the picture, but it looks like the retainer plate might be on backwards. Is the lip facing outboard?

Teague242 05-11-2013 04:39 PM

There is no lip. I think that might be part of the problem....

Black Magic Brakes 05-11-2013 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3745051)
There is no lip. I think that might be part of the problem....

You would only use the retainer with the lip on it if you have rear disc brakes and the flat ones are for use with drum brakes.

Which do you have?

Teague242 05-11-2013 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3745057)

You would only use the retainer with the lip on it if you have rear disc brakes and the flat ones are for use with drum brakes.

Which do you have?

03 Sahara. Disks. If I remember correctly the old shaft didn't have a lip on the retaining plate either. Would that cause it to leak excessively?

I think I'm going to have to tackle fixing this today or tomorrow as its taking up space. Anyone know where I can get the puller to remove the bearing race? I found a press!

tangofox007 05-11-2013 05:09 PM

Looking at the retainer plate, looks like the drum brake version.

tangofox007 05-11-2013 06:10 PM

This is what the axle shaft retainer on my '03 Dana 44 looks like:

Original Replacement Parts 5083678AA - Axle Shaft Retainer for 03-06 Jeep® Wrangler TJ Rubicon & Unlimited Rubicon with Dana 44 Rear Axle & Tru-Lok - Quadratec

Teague242 05-11-2013 07:13 PM

Yes, I'm going to go look at the old shaft and see if its flat. If it is I'm sending this shaft back and fixing the old one. There is a chance that somewhere along the way, the retainer plate was replaced with the incorrect version. If it was I will be one happy jeeper.

Black Magic Brakes 05-11-2013 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3745380)
Yes, I'm going to go look at the old shaft and see if its flat. If it is I'm sending this shaft back and fixing the old one. There is a chance that somewhere along the way, the retainer plate was replaced with the incorrect version. If it was I will be one happy jeeper.

I know stranger things have happened, but I would bet pretty good money that it is impossible to drive more than a few feet with the drum brake retainer on a disc brake set-up. That would allow almost 1/4" of in and out play on the axle, the seal would die a horrible death almost instantly, the bearing would puke out the tapered rollers in very short order causing ruin of the bearing cage while allowing a massive oil leak that would show up instantly.

Perhaps a better time line of what is going on would help?

Jerry Bransford 05-11-2013 07:21 PM

Whatever happened, it's clear since the rear disk brake configuration was confirmed that the wrong drum-style axle retainer plate is in place. It needs to be replaced with the disk brake version which has the inside lip.

tangofox007 05-11-2013 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3745402)
That would allow almost 1/4" of in and out play on the axle, the seal would die a horrible death almost instantly, the bearing would puke out the tapered rollers in very short order causing ruin of the bearing cage...

All of which seems pretty consistent with the picture. Including the bearing retainer ring which appears to have made contact a stationary object, likely the bearing cup or cup shoulder.

Teague242 05-11-2013 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3745402)

I know stranger things have happened, but I would bet pretty good money that it is impossible to drive more than a few feet with the drum brake retainer on a disc brake set-up. That would allow almost 1/4" of in and out play on the axle, the seal would die a horrible death almost instantly, the bearing would puke out the tapered rollers in very short order causing ruin of the bearing cage while allowing a massive oil leak that would show up instantly.

Perhaps a better time line of what is going on would help?

Oh it went bad quick. But I didn't drive it much in the past week. I saw the oil leak, but chalked it up to being what I consider "normal" after all this. When I saw the oil turning black I didn't think much of it either. Then I really thought about it last night and figured I would check it out. First thing I noticed was I could grab onto the wheel and pull it towards me. Maybe 1-1.5 inches of play.

I gave the shop the correct part number. However I went back onto quadratec's website and it says under the description: "fits all TJs" then it said fits TJ wrangler 03-06 and TJ wrangler unlimited 04-06.

Black Magic Brakes 05-11-2013 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3745497)
Oh it went bad quick. But I didn't drive it much in the past week. I saw the oil leak, but chalked it up to being what I consider "normal" after all this. When I saw the oil turning black I didn't think much of it either. Then I really thought about it last night and figured I would check it out. First thing I noticed was I could grab onto the wheel and pull it towards me. Maybe 1-1.5 inches of play.

I gave the shop the correct part number. However I went back onto quadratec's website and it says under the description: "fits all TJs" then it said fits TJ wrangler 03-06 and TJ wrangler unlimited 04-06.


There is no rear axle part for a TJ from the housing end outward that works with that description.

Not all TJ's came with Dana 44's from 03 to 06. Not all Unlimiteds came with disc brakes. The description is bogus.

The shop should know what they need, what they are doing and why they are doing it. If they don't, find another shop.

TreeClimber1 05-11-2013 08:32 PM

It's been my experience that any time you have repeated failures in succession, the first thing to do is check the housing for alignment (to see if it's bent, or straight). A bent housing will load the bearing and cause pressure to the seals. Both will fail, relatively quickly, but not instantly.

Teague242 05-11-2013 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3745582)

There is no rear axle part for a TJ from the housing end outward that works with that description.

Not all TJ's came with Dana 44's from 03 to 06. Not all Unlimiteds came with disc brakes. The description is bogus.

The shop should know what they need, what they are doing and why they are doing it. If they don't, find another shop.

That's quadratec's description for you. However it was listed as a Dana 44 part.

I wouldn't order the wrong part. I knew that the retaining plates were different. Just didn't expect the shop to throw it on. I take everything to these guys. I mean first my XJ was there, then I picked the XJ up and dropped the wrangler off, then on Friday I dropped my truck off and picked the wrangler up lol.

I'm gonna have a talk with them. I'm not paying for the work.

Teague242 05-11-2013 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeClimber1 (Post 3745607)
It's been my experience that any time you have repeated failures in succession, the first thing to do is check the housing for alignment (to see if it's bent, or straight). A bent housing will load the bearing and cause pressure to the seals. Both will fail, relatively quickly, but not instantly.

How would I go about checking the rear? The bearings don't go on it just the seal.

TreeClimber1 05-11-2013 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3745633)
How would I go about checking the rear? The bearings don't go on it just the seal.

Pull both axles and the differential (ring and pinion's main part). This will create an 'empty' axle housing. Reinstall the bearing caps that secured the ring gear into the housing. Then invite a couple of your buddies over for a beer, or coffee, depending on your lifestyle. Once they are there, slide a broom handle, or other suitable STRAIGHT and round piece of wood thru the axle housing, from one side to the other. Instruct them to have it EXACTLY centered in the outer housing end. With both buddies holding the broom handle, you stare at the center of the differential, and make sure the broom handle is also EXACTLY centered in the bearing caps that you recently reinstalled. If the broom handle is centered in the two axle bearing ends, and centered in the differential bearing caps, then the axle housing is 'true'.

Now, that's a 'backyard' method. If you know of a professional axle builder, they will have a 'jig' that replaces the differential housing bearing with a machined round hunk of steel, and the broom handle will be a machined rod.

Teague242 05-11-2013 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeClimber1 (Post 3745738)
Pull both axles and the differential (ring and pinion's main part). This will create an 'empty' axle housing. Reinstall the bearing caps that secured the ring gear into the housing. Then invite a couple of your buddies over for a beer, or coffee, depending on your lifestyle. Once they are there, slide a broom handle, or other suitable STRAIGHT and round piece of wood thru the axle housing, from one side to the other. Instruct them to have it EXACTLY centered in the outer housing end. With both buddies holding the broom handle, you stare at the center of the differential, and make sure the broom handle is also EXACTLY centered in the bearing caps that you recently reinstalled. If the broom handle is centered in the two axle bearing ends, and centered in the differential bearing caps, then the axle housing is 'true'.

Now, that's a 'backyard' method. If you know of a professional axle builder, they will have a 'jig' that replaces the differential housing bearing with a machined round hunk of steel, and the broom handle will be a machined rod.

To tell you the truth I stared down the axle tubes and the lines from the mandrel they used to form it are as straight as I can tell. I will take it all apart and check it before it goes together, however I don't think the housing is bent. The jeep had a very, very easy life and never saw anything offroad before I got it. The motor was clean and it was completely stock. It was a girls jeep.

But I do know a professional axle builder. Ill have to talk to him and see if he has the tool and can bring the stuff over. He told me the other day he never saw a jeep that leaked as bad as mine. So I'm not too sure on his jeep knowledge. From what I read, a heck of a lot of jeeps leak on the drivers side like this one. But none of the threads tell me why.......

Only way to find out is try everything right?

Black Magic Brakes 05-11-2013 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3746000)
To tell you the truth I stared down the axle tubes and the lines from the mandrel they used to form it are as straight as I can tell. I will take it all apart and check it before it goes together, however I don't think the housing is bent. The jeep had a very, very easy life and never saw anything offroad before I got it. The motor was clean and it was completely stock. It was a girls jeep.

But I do know a professional axle builder. Ill have to talk to him and see if he has the tool and can bring the stuff over. He told me the other day he never saw a jeep that leaked as bad as mine. So I'm not too sure on his jeep knowledge. From what I read, a heck of a lot of jeeps leak on the drivers side like this one. But none of the threads tell me why.......

Only way to find out is try everything right?

I'll bet more good money your housing is NOT bent and your only issue is the installation of the wrong retainers. If that pic you posted is an axle that was run in an OEM Dana 44 Rear Disc Brake application, they owe you a tow back to the shop, a new Set 10 assembly this time with disc brake retainers and they owe you for both sides.

To repair this mess they have created, they will need to pull the other side and make sure the bearings don't have any of the debris from the failed side in them. Then they will need to fully clean and remove all the gear oil from the housing and swab it out to a clean state.

It's your call if you want to have them pull the pinion bearings and inspect them but metal chunks in a housing floating around in the gear oil are a very bad thing.

And finally, turn your stereo down. There is no way that wasn't making a horrible noise that should have had you turn around as you left the driveway to the shop to find out what was wrong.

TreeClimber1 05-11-2013 11:52 PM

Please don't misunderstand my earlier posts. I'm NOT saying your housing is bent. I'm simply saying that it's something I would check, when you have repeated failures. It's perfectly logical that an incorrect bearing retainer could cause the issues at hand, as the same (incorrect) retain is reused, again and again.

However, whomever assembled that housing would surely have given a tug on the shaft, once the retainer bolts were secured. And that axle should have been secure! If it wobbled, was loose, or didn't feel right, the installer should have stopped and addressed the issue.

But if the housing WAS bent, then the shaft would have felt secure, until the excessive preload on the bearings (caused by the bent housing) caused the bearings to fail. This would then allow that shaft to go in the inch or two you are experiencing.

So.......either you have a bad retainer (which should have been caught during the install), or, some other issue, which could include a bent housing. SO, in conclussion. Look for the obvious. But don't exclude the others.

Teague242 05-12-2013 12:10 AM

10-4 on that. I've come to the conclusion that the old axle shaft did NOT have an incorrect bearing retainer. This is just a one time thing. The other seals were leaking for another reason.

However I gave them a part number for an axle shaft that was listed on quadratec's website to fit disk brake application. I wouldn't make that mistake.

But the fact of the matter is they received the wrong part, installed it, and sent it on its way. If I were the mechanic, I would have noticed it. Any day of the week.

So now I have a brand new axle shaft, that could very much be destroyed, as well as a rear differential that is full of metal chips. I don't even want to go up and look at the gear teeth.

I'm going to try and get the shop to buy another rear. Or else completely rebuild this one.... I know I'm not paying for this....

I've always been reluctant to have people work on my vehicles. I guess I learned my lesson now.

Teague242 05-12-2013 11:55 AM

Just got finished digging through a dumpster trying to find a sheet of paper I threw out last week. It had the part number I told them to order on it.

http://www.quadratec.com/products/52403_0023.htm

Notice how everything points to it being the correct part except "with disk or drum brakes".

Another thing was the shop charged me $350 for the shaft!!!! So either they marked it up, or ordered a different shaft!

Now I don't think there is any way they could blame me. It could be partially quadratec's fault, but the shop should have known better.

Vinman 05-12-2013 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3747292)
Another thing was the shop charged me $350 for the shaft!!!! So either they marked it up, or ordered a different shaft!

Now I don't think there is any way they could blame me. It could be partially quadratec's fault, but the shop should have known better.

So you provided them with a part number (possibly incorrect) of a part you want them to order and install yet don't feel you should bear any responsibility if the part number was incorrect and you also don't feel the shop should mark up selling price of the part?

Black Magic Brakes 05-12-2013 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3747292)
Just got finished digging through a dumpster trying to find a sheet of paper I threw out last week. It had the part number I told them to order on it.

Original Replacement Parts 5086633AA - Driver Side Rear Axle Shaft for 03-06 Jeep® Wrangler TJ & Unlimited with Dana 44 Rear Axle - Quadratec

Notice how everything points to it being the correct part except "with disk or drum brakes".

Another thing was the shop charged me $350 for the shaft!!!! So either they marked it up, or ordered a different shaft!

Now I don't think there is any way they could blame me. It could be partially quadratec's fault, but the shop should have known better.


While I'm not exactly a shop, I do order in a lot of parts for folks. If I don't get to put 10% on top of it, you order it, you deal with the tracking, money handling, and verify that it shows up when needed.

All the mark-up does is cover expenses.

The only caveat I have for you in this whole mess is I would not have installed that shaft as it was delivered into that rear axle.

Teague242 05-12-2013 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinman (Post 3747687)

So you provided them with a part number (possibly incorrect) of a part you want them to order and install yet don't feel you should bear any responsibility if the part number was incorrect and you also don't feel the shop should mark up selling price of the part?

I gave them a part number that was correct. The part was supposed to fit disk brake Dana 44 TJs and LJs. The part they received was incorrect. This should have been discovered before they installed it. I don't do that for a living and I know the difference between the drum and disk brake retainer plates.

As far as I know all jeeps came with disk brakes after 03. I'm fairly sure that LJs only have disks. So the part is wrongly listed as being able to fit these machines.

tangofox007 05-12-2013 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3747961)
I gave them a part number that was correct.

If it wasn't 5083677AA, it probably was not as correct as you seem to think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3747961)

As far as I know all jeeps came with disk brakes after 03.

They did, but not on the rear axle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3747961)
So the part is wrongly listed as being able to fit these machines.

There is a Quadratec listing claiming that a particular part fits '97-'02 TJ Unlimiteds. Good luck finding one of those.

Black Magic Brakes 05-12-2013 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teague242 (Post 3747961)
I gave them a part number that was correct. The part was supposed to fit disk brake Dana 44 TJs and LJs. The part they received was incorrect. This should have been discovered before they installed it. I don't do that for a living and I know the difference between the drum and disk brake retainer plates.

As far as I know all jeeps came with disk brakes after 03. I'm fairly sure that LJs only have disks. So the part is wrongly listed as being able to fit these machines.

The good news is Quadratec has the same info you do. There is no rear axle for the TJ Dana 44 that fits both drum and disc without some provision for the difference between drum and disc backing plate thicknesses.

That said, the axle, bearing, seal, shaft collar, housing end, and wheel studs are all the same or can be the same. The only difference is the 4 bolt retainer.

Teague242 05-12-2013 07:36 PM

OK. I know the differences between the backing plates. My jeep is an 03. The shaft is supposed to fit 03-06 TJ wranglers. It also says it fits both disk and drum. It says it fits a Dana 44. My jeep has a Dana 44.


Click on the link. I gave them the quadratec part number for that axle shaft.

I figured that "with disk and drum brakes" was a typo.

And I also told the mechanic over the phone, after giving him the part number, to go on quadratec's website and make sure it's the correct one. He acknowledged this and hung up. I did not tell him to check that it's the right part when he receives it. Just before he orders it.

Once again I am well aware that disk and drum have different backing plates.


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