Jeep Wrangler Forum

Jeep Wrangler Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/)
-   TJ General Discussion Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/)
-   -   sport cage (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/sport-cage-242535.html)

Jason1348 05-14-2013 02:07 AM

sport cage
 
I need some advice on what one to get I like btf cage for a weld in and I like rock hard for a bolt on anyone have one to give opinions

Jason1348 05-14-2013 06:23 AM

?

geiman 05-14-2013 09:08 AM

An improper cage can give you a false sense of security, and actually end up seriously hurting you in the worst case scenario. As such, this is a difficult topic for someone who doesn't know how you use your Jeep to answer. You need to decide what your wheeling style dictates that you need. I can tell you that regardless I'd run screaming from the bolt-on cage.

I'm no KoH style wheeler, but still I personally want something as safe as can be which is why I'm hopefully building something myself in the near future. If you start reading about roll cages and what makes a good one, you'll see that things like triangulation, dead tubes, etc. are all important concepts that need to be understood to pick a good roll cage design.

Personally, I do like the BTF cage as a good start, but the one thing that keeps me from buying it is the plate a-pillars. Many argue one way or the other as to whether or not the plated a-pillars are safe, but personally I'd rather not take the chance and just get something with tube down to the floor. If you research a bit you'll see plenty of info on both sides of that debate.

I'll leave you with this:

All About Roll Cages For TJ/LJ - JeepForum.com

It's a long drawn-out thread, but there is some pretty good information there, especially towards the end.

Jason1348 05-14-2013 01:26 PM

I do like the non tube pillars upfront thats what I will be going with im not rock crawling ohio a ll deep ruts and mud the bft I like but really like to have a rear spreader bar

KaiserJeep 05-14-2013 03:34 PM

Personally I bought a bolt-in cage. This is after I observed the effects of a rollover on a couple of weld-in cages. Both such cages broke at the point where the stock cage was welded to the added pieces, and there was a weld bead attached to the add-on tubing, and a gouge in the stock hoop which folded at the point of the weld, and broke the weld. I also saw three more rollovers on Jeeps with just the stock cage.

My conclusion was that the stock cage is fabbed and then heat-treated, and welding dissimilar materials to it excessively weakens the cage. I would rate cage strength as follows:

Bad - Stock Cage plus weld-on additions.

Good - Stock cage, unmodified.

Better - Stock cage plus bolt-on additions.

Best - Complete weld in cage, where the stock cage is cut off and all new cage with gussets and triangulated members is installed and tied to the frame in a minimum of four places.

All five of the rollovers I have examined occurred on the highway. The two welded cages I am talking about failed in highway rollovers at speed. If you never drive at highway speed, as in you trailer your Jeep everywhere, then almost any cage will do.

In reality, most trail rollovers happen at low speed and for a short distance, like two complete rolls or less. It is the highway where most Jeeps are subjected to lethal force and multiple rollover scenarios.

The quality of the welds matters a lot. The best cages are fabbed in shops with all the right bending and notching tools, a powerfull 220v welding rig, and most importantly: a very good welder.

The worst cages are those boogered up by somebody with a cheap 110v wire-fed welder in their driveway.

geiman 05-14-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiserJeep (Post 3755320)

In reality, most trail rollovers happen at low speed and for a short distance, like two complete rolls or less.

Unfortunately you're making too many generalizations. Given that we don't know where the OP wheels and what he likes to do, I'm not sure how you can know this.

There are many places where I frequent that a mistake could cause you to end up rolling down a very steep hillside, or essentially down the mountain for a few hundred yards or more.

Sure that's worst case scenario, but to say if you don't see the highway with your rig almost any cage will do is simply terrible advice.

JPi4.0 05-14-2013 03:56 PM

I have the rock hard cage. It is what it is. I rolled onto my side. I only Had to replace door skins. Everything else was square and tight. I think it helped. Multiple rollover the rock hard will only be as strong as the weakest point in the entire system.

PHILDABEAST 05-14-2013 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason1348 (Post 3754918)
I do like the non tube pillars upfront thats what I will be going with im not rock crawling ohio a ll deep ruts and mud the bft I like but really like to have a rear spreader bar

Even with the non tube A pillar you do something like this (see square tube next to strap under dash) IMO it adds a lot of strength (it actually ties into my psc rockers) its out of the way, and the dash wasn't buchered to run a piece of tubing through it. Fyi, this was done by the po and as an ex koh style driver I have inspected it closely and I'm confident it is very stout.


Attachment 249162

TJDave 05-14-2013 05:07 PM

I have a bolt on cage. Someone on these forums suggested if a bolt on was your only option, to get the Or-Fab. It replaces the thin weak windshield support bars. There is no Or-Fab offering for the rear, so I also took their suggestion of the Rockhard rear cage. Orfab/Rockhard Hybrid! Everything fit well. Door surrounds and factory soft top work just like they did on the stock cage.

Sure I would love to rip the whole stock cage out and have a custom full welded cage built. It's just not an option for me right now.

KaiserJeep 05-14-2013 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geiman (Post 3755355)
Unfortunately you're making too many generalizations. Given that we don't know where the OP wheels and what he likes to do, I'm not sure how you can know this.

There are many places where I frequent that a mistake could cause you to end up rolling down a very steep hillside, or essentially down the mountain for a few hundred yards or more.

Sure that's worst case scenario, but to say if you don't see the highway with your rig almost any cage will do is simply terrible advice.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHEELING. I know that's what you think it's about, but you are wrong. If you drive your Jeep on the road, at least 95% of the miles and 95% of the rollovers happen on the road. Sure, you can postulate a situation where a Jeep could roll thousands of feet downhill - but that is not what typically happens and even the strongest cage could fail in such a situation. What happens most often is a simple flop on the side, followed by a complete rollover, followed by a double rollover, etc.

You plan for and build for what is the most likely accident - on the road. It would be foolish to plan for the least likely accident, which is rolling all the way down the mountain - because you are unlikely to survive such an accident with the best cage that you could buy.

geiman 05-14-2013 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiserJeep (Post 3755824)
THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHEELING.

You're right, and nowhere did I say this was just about wheeling and nothing else. Again, you're making assumptions and generalizations.

When a cage goes in my TJ, it will be built as properly for any situation as I can make it, whether that be from trouble on the street or on the trail. And even still, I'll drive as if I have no cage, which is a suggestion I'd give to anyone.

But again, there is no kit I could recommend with good conscience. Hopefully the OP educates himself and makes a good decision, as an improper cage is something that could end up seriously hurting whoever rides with him. The last thing you want is the thing meant to protect you bending over and severing a leg or worse.

UnlimitedLJ04 05-14-2013 07:50 PM

here's what I did....this thread has a bunch of cages ideas/pics...
*Official* Cage idea/pic/discussion thread - Page 19 - JeepForum.com

Moabrubi 05-14-2013 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiserJeep (Post 3755320)

Bad - Stock Cage plus weld-on additions.

Good - Stock cage, unmodified.

Better - Stock cage plus bolt-on additions.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Mcatt 05-14-2013 08:02 PM

If I may, look at drag racing or any other sport where cages are required, see any bolt ins?? Nope. Not sure where BTF is but can I suggest SW race cars they're in PA and shipping would be less than from the west coast. If you're gonna get real serious about a real cage there are places that make them. Chromemoly is the strongest but unless you have a TIG welder and are good with it you're stuck with mild steel. Check out SW and others some of them offer basic kits that you can add to depending on what you want. A real cage should be attached to the frame and if built correctly should end up mostly OK at the bottom of the mountain.

toolmantim 05-15-2013 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiserJeep (Post 3755320)

My conclusion was that the stock cage is fabbed and then heat-treated,

where did you get information that they are heat treated tubes??

JeepandMud 05-15-2013 06:04 PM

I'm looking at a GenRight cage, expensive yep, but it would give me a more sense of mind. I was looking at RockHard but been hearing how their cage may give in during a roll over. I don't know. Just what I've been hearing, though not sure if it's true or not.

geiman 05-15-2013 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toolmantim (Post 3758942)
where did you get information that they are heat treated tubes??

The stock B and C pillar tubes are .120" HREW tubing. The 'H' in HREW stands for 'Hot', but other than that I have no idea what, if any, actual heat treating for strength the stock tubes see.

Most anyone who builds cages will use DOM instead of HREW; a quick Google search of "DOM vs HREW" will provide you with plenty of reading material. DOM has many advantages over HREW for roll cage building, including a much better strength to weight ratio.

That being said, if you're building a cage for your TJ, adding onto the stock HREW parts isn't a bad thing; at least in my opinion. If I was building from scratch I'd most definitely use all DOM, but the stock HREW can be a decent start provided your additions are done properly.

KaiserJeep 05-24-2013 06:47 PM

Note that the stock HREW cage is fabricated in pieces and bolted together, at least mine in my 2003 is that way.

But more importantly, I have seen the results of welding DOM to the stock hoop, and in both rollovers, the stock hoop folded at the weld, and the weld broke with some of the material from the HREW tube adhered to the DOM tube.

I conclude that most people cannot join these two materials properly. Perhaps some of you can, and I've just never seen such after a rollover.

pineda22 05-24-2013 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiserJeep (Post 3790147)
Note that the stock HREW cage is fabricated in pieces and bolted together, at least mine in my 2003 is that way.

But more importantly, I have seen the results of welding DOM to the stock hoop, and in both rollovers, the stock hoop folded at the weld, and the weld broke with some of the material from the HREW tube adhered to the DOM tube.

I conclude that most people cannot join these two materials properly. Perhaps some of you can, and I've just never seen such after a rollover.

i would have to agree with you sir!....at least to an extent it would be possable to weld the 2 materials but would require heating of the hardened steel and multiple welds with a better welder than most ppl have at home. that being said every cage i have helped with or been arround has had multiple beads run at each connection usually a triple pass but again not somethin a shade tree mechanic should undertake

Hickam 05-25-2013 10:58 AM

Yeah I'm sure all of the aftermarket cage builders out there like rockhard, genright and even smittybilt are building crap stuff that is going to kill you. Give me a break there has to be a huge liability for them to sell those cages so I'm sure there is some real engineering that goes into them. But go ahead if you want design your own and burn it in I'm sure your smarter than those manufacturers anyway. I agree with the guy talking about the cages in highway rollovers. If you don't already have a cage or haven't had one why are you telling people what is best. Keep reading everything that way you will have more real world experience than everyone else.

Black Magic Brakes 05-25-2013 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHILDABEAST (Post 3755585)
Even with the non tube A pillar you do something like this (see square tube next to strap under dash) IMO it adds a lot of strength (it actually ties into my psc rockers) its out of the way, and the dash wasn't buchered to run a piece of tubing through it. Fyi, this was done by the po and as an ex koh style driver I have inspected it closely and I'm confident it is very stout.


Attachment 249162

I live about 10 miles from the guy that does all the KOH tech inspections on every rig that enters. You are welcome to any opinion you have based on your past experiences but I will tell you right now that what you have there wouldn't get past the first 30 seconds of a tech inspection.

While it may work for you just fine, don't mislead others into believing the same for them.

PHILDABEAST 05-25-2013 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3791840)

I live about 10 miles from the guy that does all the KOH tech inspections on every rig that enters. You are welcome to any opinion you have based on your past experiences but I will tell you right now that what you have there wouldn't get past the first 30 seconds of a tech inspection.

While it may work for you just fine, don't mislead others into believing the same for them.

Since when was this thread about passing KOH tech inspection? Im not running koh and neither was the op. I simply posted a way to reinforce the non tube A-pillars on a SPORT cage. Don't just jump in here and accuse me of misleading anyone about anything, I said it was stout because it is, and that's it.

pineda22 05-25-2013 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hickam (Post 3791722)
Yeah I'm sure all of the aftermarket cage builders out there like rockhard, genright and even smittybilt are building crap stuff that is going to kill you. Give me a break there has to be a huge liability for them to sell those cages so I'm sure there is some real engineering that goes into them. But go ahead if you want design your own and burn it in I'm sure your smarter than those manufacturers anyway. I agree with the guy talking about the cages in highway rollovers. If you don't already have a cage or haven't had one why are you telling people what is best. Keep reading everything that way you will have more real world experience than everyone else.

never said i was smarter or better than anybody i was just adding my opinion sorry if you didnt like it bud but since i weld and wrench on things for 12 years and its how i make a living (and the 5 cages ive help build for different rigs) i would like to think i might have a small idea of what im talking about i was just trying to say if your not a confident welder DONT WELD ON YOUR CAGE!

Black Magic Brakes 05-25-2013 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHILDABEAST (Post 3755585)
Even with the non tube A pillar you do something like this (see square tube next to strap under dash) IMO it adds a lot of strength (it actually ties into my psc rockers) its out of the way, and the dash wasn't buchered to run a piece of tubing through it. Fyi, this was done by the po and as an ex koh style driver I have inspected it closely and I'm confident it is very stout.


Attachment 249162

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHILDABEAST (Post 3792008)
Since when was this thread about passing KOH tech inspection? Im not running koh and neither was the op. I simply posted a way to reinforce the non tube A-pillars on a SPORT cage. Don't just jump in here and accuse me of misleading anyone about anything, I said it was stout because it is, and that's it.

If you don't want to mislead, change your wording. The way you said it says that with a racing background, you approve of that style of cage and by extrapolation, it is safe. It isn't when it comes to cages.

If you want a cage, get one, if you want a fancy CB rack, you already have one.

Black Magic Brakes 05-25-2013 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hickam (Post 3791722)
Yeah I'm sure all of the aftermarket cage builders out there like rockhard, genright and even smittybilt are building crap stuff that is going to kill you. Give me a break there has to be a huge liability for them to sell those cages so I'm sure there is some real engineering that goes into them.

I will also bet good money that somewhere somehow there will be some fine print or not so fine print the states simply that if you get hurt or die due to the installation of their product, it is not their fault and you assume your own risks and liability when you accept and use said product.

Oh and by the way, the underlined part? :rofl:

s14sh3r 05-25-2013 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3792130)
I will also bet good money that somewhere somehow there will be some fine print or not so fine print the states simply that if you get hurt or die due to the installation of their product, it is not their fault and you assume your own risks and liability when you accept and use said product.

Oh and by the way, the underlined part? :rofl:

From Genright's site:
Quote:

No product or service is designed or intended to prevent injury or death. Purchase and/or use of any products from GenRight Off Road implies recognition and acceptance of these terms and conditions by consumer.

PHILDABEAST 05-25-2013 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3792128)

If you don't want to mislead, change your wording. The way you said it says that with a racing background, you approve of that style of cage and by extrapolation, it is safe. It isn't when it comes to cages.

If you want a cage, get one, if you want a fancy CB rack, you already have one.

Is it safer than not having them? I would certainly say it is. I'm mean really, how "safe" is the stock cage? Are you saying that adding extra support is going to make a stock cage less safe?

The title of this thread is "sport cage" if this was about the design and execution of the safest cage you can build it would have been called roll cage. They are called sport cages because the companies that built can't claim that they will protect in the event of a roll over. Are they safer than the stock cage? I'd say some of them are, at least they add some extra structure.

Black Magic Brakes 05-25-2013 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHILDABEAST (Post 3792223)
Is it safer than not having them? I would certainly say it is. I'm mean really, how "safe" is the stock cage? Are you saying that adding extra support is going to make a stock cage less safe?

The title of this thread is "sport cage" if this was about the design and execution of the safest cage you can build it would have been called roll cage. They are called sport cages because the companies that built can't claim that they will protect in the event of a roll over. Are they safer than the stock cage? I'd say some of them are, at least they add some extra structure.

That's all great and wonderful if you are capable of predicting the future and know that you will never roll your rig in such a manner that the rest of the deficiencies don't come into play.

The common sentiment when it comes to "sport" cages is that something is better than nothing and that is true right up to the point where it isn't.

If you're gonna call it a "sport" cage because you know it won't save your life, then why bother?

Hickam 05-25-2013 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineda22 (Post 3792021)
never said i was smarter or better than anybody i was just adding my opinion sorry if you didnt like it bud but since i weld and wrench on things for 12 years and its how i make a living (and the 5 cages ive help build for different rigs) i would like to think i might have a small idea of what im talking about i was just trying to say if your not a confident welder DONT WELD ON YOUR CAGE!

Wasn't trying to rip you i agree with what you are saying I'm just tired of every time someone posts something on here or asks a question some people have to make them feel like an idiot and rip there ideas.

1979WagoneerLTD 05-25-2013 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hickam (Post 3792734)

wasn't trying to rip you i agree with what you are saying i'm just tired of every time someone posts something on here or asks a question some people have to make them feel like an idiot and rip there ideas.

x2


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19 PM.