Jeep Wrangler Forum

Jeep Wrangler Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/)
-   TJ General Discussion Forum (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/)
-   -   Highway Robbery? (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/highway-robbery-244749.html)

MySahara 05-24-2013 06:20 AM

Highway Robbery?
 
I called a local Off Road shop to see what they would charge me to install a header on my '98 Sahara. They told me it's a 4.5 hr job and the install would be right at $500. Are they crazy and trying to rob me blind? I've seen several posts that say a novice can do it in 3 hours. Should I just do it myself? I am NOT mechanically inclined.

Mypantera 05-24-2013 06:54 AM

that does seem a little high but to do it right you do need to remove the intake as well as the exhaust as they share the same gasket. I think you should do it yourself, it is not hard to do at all.

ChaddG 05-24-2013 07:02 AM

:dance:yeah! do it yourself! how reassuring and worthwhile it is to know it is done right!

MosesTJ 05-24-2013 07:10 AM

You need to get on the Texas forum and see If you can get some help if you don't feel comfortable. I know here in ga no one ever goes at anything alone. That's our Jeeper code!

Tjdude08 05-24-2013 07:24 AM

When I bought my tj it had a cracked header and i had the dealer replace it. I saw the bill and it was some $450-$500. So I'd say its about right. It's now been 4 years and its cracked again so I'm going to do it myself

Rayko 05-24-2013 07:38 AM

Most shops charge flat rate about about $80. per hr.

NC Bear 05-24-2013 07:39 AM

just be careful with the intake manifold. If you don't get it back on centered you will crack it. New they cost a grand.

flynhi4u 05-24-2013 07:44 AM

Not sure how many miles you have on your Jeep but wait till you snap off a stud or round off one nut due to all the heat cycles it went through. The book times to do jobs are developed using new cars as test vehicles and they do not have to deal with rusted fasteners. It can quickly turn a 3 hour job into a 4.5 hour job for a well equipped shop and all day affair for a hack like me. Now hopefully they quoted you that price based off their knowledge of how quickly things can go wrong and in the event that all went smoothly and it took les time they would only charge you for the amount of time it actually took. We all know that is what all the shops do, LOL. That said, if it is not your DD, do it yourself and save yourself the cash for other things you want. I am going to do ours myself this summer.

Sam in IN

callbob 05-24-2013 08:14 AM

If you feel comfortable and can "call a friend" that has some mechanical ability, go for it. If you in fact have no mechanical skills, you would be cheaper off having a competent shop do it for you. By the time you break a few other things and end up with a tow bill to boot, a $500 bill will seem cheap.

flflash 05-24-2013 08:55 AM

The Mitchel labor time guide time for replaceing an exhuast manifold on a 98 Sahara is 3.8 hours. It's not uncommon to add a half hour or so on older vehicles to cover rusted, broken, rounded off bolts especially on exhaust components.
So no your not being robbed.

Is the $500 they qouted labor only? Do you know their labor rate?

Black Magic Brakes 05-24-2013 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MySahara (Post 3788122)
I called a local Off Road shop to see what they would charge me to install a header on my '98 Sahara. They told me it's a 4.5 hr job and the install would be right at $500. Are they crazy and trying to rob me blind? I've seen several posts that say a novice can do it in 3 hours. Should I just do it myself? I am NOT mechanically inclined.

As others have said, yes, that price is a bit high until you run into problems. There are at least 2 posts a week from folks who upon starting the engine after a header swap very much want to know how to stop it from revving up to full RPM.

They missed the alignment dowels and now have to redo the whole thing to fix the vacuum leak. If they are lucky, all they need is time and a new gasket, if they are unlucky, they need an intake manifold.

You are the only one that knows if you are comfortable doing the job. If you want to give it a shot, line up some help to bail you out if you get in trouble.

I am one of the most mechanically gifted folks I know of and there are a lot of things I won't do myself due to either learning curves, equipment, or lack of interest. I have a local mechanic shop I trust so far and they do my AC work, the local muffler shop does my exhaust on the rigs I build, I have 3 gear guys that set up gears for me and I've never balanced a tire.

There is no shame in having competent folks help you with stuff you aren't comfortable with and compensating them fairly.

DBoat 05-24-2013 01:40 PM

:thumb:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3788561)
As others have said, yes, that price is a bit high until you run into problems. There are at least 2 posts a week from folks who upon starting the engine after a header swap very much want to know how to stop it from revving up to full RPM.

They missed the alignment dowels and now have to redo the whole thing to fix the vacuum leak. If they are lucky, all they need is time and a new gasket, if they are unlucky, they need an intake manifold.

You are the only one that knows if you are comfortable doing the job. If you want to give it a shot, line up some help to bail you out if you get in trouble.

I am one of the most mechanically gifted folks I know of and there are a lot of things I won't do myself due to either learning curves, equipment, or lack of interest. I have a local mechanic shop I trust so far and they do my AC work, the local muffler shop does my exhaust on the rigs I build, I have 3 gear guys that set up gears for me and I've never balanced a tire.

There is no shame in having competent folks help you with stuff you aren't comfortable with and compensating them fairly.

True wisdom and well said:thumb:

I am also one to have big jobs that I will probably do once in my lifetime to an outsider. Mainly because I know it will take me 2-3 times longer than a knowledge, skilled mechanic to do the very same job.

mudmagnet63 05-24-2013 04:38 PM

:appl:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3788561)
There is no shame in having competent folks help you with stuff you aren't comfortable with and compensating them fairly.


krisbman 05-24-2013 09:00 PM

If they are charging 5 hours labor then that is the book time to R&R a jeep exhaust header. Its the industry standard. Yeah someone might be able to get it done in 3 and im willing to bet a competent tech can best that time, this is how a tech makes his money. The shop bills out 5 and the tech is paid for 5 yet it only takes him 3. Flat rate my friend. Guys gotta eat.

flflash 05-24-2013 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krisbman (Post 3790469)
If they are charging 5 hours labor then that is the book time to R&R a jeep exhaust header. Its the industry standard. Yeah someone might be able to get it done in 3 and im willing to bet a competent tech can best that time, this is how a tech makes his money. The shop bills out 5 and the tech is paid for 5 yet it only takes him 3. Flat rate my friend. Guys gotta eat.

I disagree on your synopsis of the situation but I really don't care to run the thread off track. I will say that the Best way for a Technician to make a Good living for a long time is to always do Quality work at a Fair price.

TreeClimber1 05-24-2013 09:30 PM

IF you do decide to do this yourself, do this; buy KROIL (it's a penatrating oil), and soak those bolts down every day for a week, before you start. It's better if you aren't daily driving it, so that you don't cook off the oil. The manifold will disassemble much easier, and you will likely not break any of the bolts. :thumb:

TreeClimber1 05-24-2013 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3790507)
I disagree on your synopsis of the situation but I really don't care to run the thread off track. I will say that the Best way for a Technician to make a Good living for a long time is to always do Quality work at a Fair price.

True, if you're referring to the 'Shop', but not true if you're referring to the Tech/Mechanic. The Tech is paid to do the job correctly, cleanly, professionally AND as fast as he or she can. If the skill of the Tech is such, that they are faster than the book, they should be compensated for having achieved that skill. OR, if they have invested in tools which are superior to, and allow them to save time, they should still be compensated for having invested.

flflash 05-24-2013 09:45 PM

:) As long as you don't take short cuts that effect the quality and reliabilty of the job and install every part the customer paid for I have no problems with your comments and agree.
We both know that the current estimating guides are pretty close to being on the money beating their time by 40% and doing a quality job is rather far fetched.

If you ever relocate to the Central Florida area and are in search of a job look me up. I like the way you think.

krisbman 05-24-2013 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3790507)

I disagree on your synopsis of the situation but I really don't care to run the thread off track. I will say that the Best way for a Technician to make a Good living for a long time is to always do Quality work at a Fair price.

So because he beats time hes a hack??? Every tech i know does the job complete and takes pride in their work. Beating time is the only way a flat rate tech will ever make a living. I was a collision painter for years and I could regularly flag 20 hours a day, doing the job correct.

rgroesbeck1 05-24-2013 10:19 PM

As others have said, you know your abilities. If you are unsure, and if you don't have a trusted person to guide/assist you with the process, you should consider paying a skilled technician to do the work. Good technicians are proud of their work and know their continued success hinges on delivering quality at an appropriate price. Like Blaine said, there are things I will do and things I will not do. I rebuilt engines when I was in high school and my friends sought me out to help. But I have never dived into a differential and I won't.

flflash 05-24-2013 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krisbman (Post 3790650)
So because he beats time hes a hack??? Every tech i know does the job complete and takes pride in their work. Beating time is the only way a flat rate tech will ever make a living. I was a collision painter for years and I could regularly flag 20 hours a day, doing the job correct.

LOL, Is it a full moon out tonight?

I never called anyone a "Hack" I'm not sure how your reading that into my comments? Just so you know I'm also an automotive technician and currently the shop foreman at a GM dealership. I've been making a living in this business since the late 70's. Before that I worked at my fathers independent shop from the time I could pick up a wrench.

No Technician/Mechanic basher here! But do know I will not except any shoddy work ethics.

krisbman 05-24-2013 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3790721)

LOL, Is it a full moon out tonight?

I never called anyone a "Hack" I'm not sure how your reading that into my comments? Just so you know I'm also an automotive technician and currently the shop foreman at a GM dealership. I've been making a living in this business since the late 70's. Before that I worked at my fathers independent shop from the time I could pick up a wrench.

No Technician/Mechanic basher here! But do know I will not except any shoddy work ethics.

Just the insinuating of cutting corners/ shortcuts etc. no worrys man. And generally a hack wont last long at any reputable shop.

TreeClimber1 05-25-2013 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3790721)
LOL, Is it a full moon out tonight?

I never called anyone a "Hack" I'm not sure how your reading that into my comments? Just so you know I'm also an automotive technician and currently the shop foreman at a GM dealership. I've been making a living in this business since the late 70's. Before that I worked at my fathers independent shop from the time I could pick up a wrench.

No Technician/Mechanic basher here! But do know I will not except any shoddy work ethics.

You an old fart. I started in dealerships in 1984. You got me beat by 5 years.

gmiller0737 05-25-2013 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayko (Post 3788232)
Most shops charge flat rate about about $80. per hr.

Depends on where in the USA you are average around here is $100 where I work we are @ $103 + They add a shop supply fee to every Ticket (That I don't agree with)

boomer_95 05-25-2013 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmiller0737 (Post 3791347)
Depends on where in the USA you are average around here is $100 where I work we are @ $103 + They add a shop supply fee to every Ticket (That I don't agree with)

most shops have the shop supply fee. brake cleaner and penetrating lube isn't cheep...

$103 is quite a bit! i work at a small engine dealership, and were @ $80

as for the OP, if you think you can do it, and have lots of help from mechanically inclined friends, and read threw a manual a few times, then go for it :thumb:

Black Magic Brakes 05-25-2013 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmiller0737 (Post 3791347)
Depends on where in the USA you are average around here is $100 where I work we are @ $103 + They add a shop supply fee to every Ticket (That I don't agree with)

The shop supply fee is a tough one. All that stuff has to get into the shop somehow and it's not exactly free and at the end of the day, it adds up to a not insignificant amount.

I know I spend 100's of dollars on shop towels, cable ties, hardware, nuts, bolts, washers, RTV of 4 or 5 kinds, brake fluid, WD-40, Kroil, Simple Green, Brake cleaner, and what not.

There isn't a car I work on that I don't use "shop supplies" in some manner.

That leaves you with a few choices, absorb the cost, price it out per item and add it to the bill, or do the shop supply fee.

Itemizing 5 zip ties, 3 squirts of WD-40, 4 dirty shop towels, 1 bolt, washer, and nut in 3/8's not only looks petty and silly, but it's also nearly impossible to track reliably.

The way it's done at the RV shop my neighbor works at is not something I would like either. If they use a squirt of roof cleaner, you buy the whole can. Same goes for caulking, slide-out lube and cleaner, rolls of putty tape, roof repair tape, and similar. He has boxes of the stuff that the customers paid for and left behind each with just a bit used from them.

You got a better idea, I'm all ears because there is no way I'm going to charge someone for a few zip ties and yet, they still have make it to the shelf somehow.

krisbman 05-25-2013 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes (Post 3791479)

The shop supply fee is a tough one. All that stuff has to get into the shop somehow and it's not exactly free and at the end of the day, it adds up to a not insignificant amount.

I know I spend 100's of dollars on shop towels, cable ties, hardware, nuts, bolts, washers, RTV of 4 or 5 kinds, brake fluid, WD-40, Kroil, Simple Green, Brake cleaner, and what not.

There isn't a car I work on that I don't use "shop supplies" in some manner.

That leaves you with a few choices, absorb the cost, price it out per item and add it to the bill, or do the shop supply fee.

Itemizing 5 zip ties, 3 squirts of WD-40, 4 dirty shop towels, 1 bolt, washer, and nut in 3/8's not only looks petty and silly, but it's also nearly impossible to track reliably.

The way it's done at the RV shop my neighbor works at is not something I would like either. If they use a squirt of roof cleaner, you buy the whole can. Same goes for caulking, slide-out lube and cleaner, rolls of putty tape, roof repair tape, and similar. He has boxes of the stuff that the customers paid for and left behind each with just a bit used from them.

You got a better idea, I'm all ears because there is no way I'm going to charge someone for a few zip ties and yet, they still have make it to the shelf somehow.

Yes this is tough. Im the lead painter at our fab shop but i also do the body work and some welding and assembly. We are supposed to itemize everything we use, nuts bolts rags etc. what i usually do to start off is just put down 1 roll of shop towels, 1 box of gloves. If i use a bolt or nut for something random or a few spritzes of semi gloss black/ spray lube etc i seldom write it down. I do keep track of my masking paper, tape, hardware for final assembly and i bill out the paint materials per customer along with bondo, wax& grease remover etc. let me tell you its a royal pain in the ass, i hate it. I know theres a better way and i dont feel its my job to have to write all this crap down at the end of my work day.

Patrick H 05-25-2013 09:57 AM

My shop is pretty small, as in I am the only tech., and I complete every work order. I try to base my supply charge on how much of any given supply(s) I use. On most normal jobs, I charge $6, $8, or $12 depending on what was actually used.
It can be tough though. Say I service a rear differential and install a trailer hitch, brake controller, and charging setup on one vehicle..That can add up to a lot of solvent, sealer, zip ties, wiring terminals, heat shrink, etc.

flflash 05-25-2013 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeClimber1 (Post 3791029)
You an old fart. I started in dealerships in 1984. You got me beat by 5 years.

Aw come on I'm a young 53 :whistling: I enrolled in what is now called the ASEP program my Jr year of high school 1977. Did a half day of school then 1 to 5:30 at a Pontiac Buick GMC dealer 3 days a week and Seminole Community College 2 days a week for 2 years 1/2 days at school and work during the summer. Great program I wish more youngsters would do the same, there really is a severe shortage of quality young Techs. Worked for Uncle Sam after grad and went fulltime dealership in 84 we're tied "Old Fart"

Black Magic Brakes 05-25-2013 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick H (Post 3791568)
My shop is pretty small, as in I am the only tech., and I complete every work order. I try to base my supply charge on how much of any given supply(s) I use. On most normal jobs, I charge $6, $8, or $12 depending on what was actually used.
It can be tough though. Say I service a rear differential and install a trailer hitch, brake controller, and charging setup on one vehicle..That can add up to a lot of solvent, sealer, zip ties, wiring terminals, heat shrink, etc.

I have some jobs that have over 10 grand in parts and then the labor to finish off the project. I usually do a small percentage. 1% or so of the total.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:16 PM.