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-   -   Changed rear pinion seal, getting a slight hum now. (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/changed-rear-pinion-seal-getting-a-slight-hum-now-244790.html)

Jgood738 05-24-2013 10:04 AM

Changed rear pinion seal, getting a slight hum now.
 
Noticed a slight hum on acceleration. I changed my pinion seal and only marked the pinion nut and tightened it back to where the mark was. It may be looser though. Had a tough time seeing the mark. Should I have torqued it tighter and if so what lbs? Is it possible to over tighten it and hurt the bearings? I heard the nut can be reused with locktite.

tangofox007 05-24-2013 10:19 AM

What axle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jgood738 (Post 3788757)
I changed my pinion seal and only marked the pinion nut and tightened it back to where the mark was.

That's not a recipe for success. Especially if the axle is a Dana 35.

Jgood738 05-24-2013 10:28 AM

Yep. It's a 35.

Jgood738 05-24-2013 11:21 AM

I've read several methods on how to do it. Either mark it and tighten back or torque it down all the way. I'm gonna assume the mark it method isn't working so gonna try tightening it down.
At least if it blows up I have a rock solid reason to swap it out.

Jerry Bransford 05-24-2013 11:39 AM

You can usually just retorque it to 165-185 ft-lbs. without issue. I have done that 8-10 times over the years after doing pinion work without problem.

Jgood738 05-24-2013 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 3789029)
You can usually just retorque it to 165-185 ft-lbs. without issue. I have done that 8-10 times over the years after doing pinion work without problem.

Thanks Jerry. :)

tangofox007 05-24-2013 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jgood738 (Post 3789052)
Thanks Jerry. :)

Not so fast. You absolutely cannot use pinion nut torque as a reference on a pinion which is preloaded with a crush collar, such as a Dana 35. The nut torque will be fairly contant as the collar begins to crush; bearing preload, however, will increase dramatically. You must install a new crush collar. Proper procedure involves measuring pinion rotational torque before the nut is loosened, then returning to that torque plus 5 in/lbs for the new seal. Since you pressumably didn't measure the pre-dissasembly torque, best bet is to remove wheels and drums, then tighten to around 30 in/lbs of pinion rotational torque.

Jerry Bransford 05-24-2013 12:11 PM

Without installing a new crush sleeve, the above method works fine... and that recommendation came from Tom Wood many years ago. It worked fine & no problems after doing as Tom suggested. Reinstalling a new crush sleeve turns it into a fairly major job. Retorquing it to 165-185 ft-lbs. obviously isn't ideal but it works and it worked for me. Certainly few consider it necessary to replace the crush sleeve after doing a simple seal or yoke replacement.

tangofox007 05-24-2013 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 3789143)
Without installing a new crush sleeve, the above method works fine...

It might randomly work fine. No way does it reliably work fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 3789143)
Certainly few consider it necessary to replace the crush sleeve after doing a simple seal or yoke replacement.

I suppose it all boils down to whether you want to do things right or win a popularity contest. And save $2 by reusing a one-time-use part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 3789143)
Without installing a new crush sleeve, the above method works fine... and that recommendation came from Tom Wood many years ago.

Sure that recommendation was not applicable to a shimmed pinion shaft?

The minimum torque on a crush sleeve nut is 200 ft/lbs. Acceptable preload with reduced torque is reasonably impossible.

flflash 05-24-2013 01:58 PM

I've Reliably used the method Jerry mentioned on literally Hundreds of crush sleeve type rear ends over the past 30 plus years in the automotive repair business it works!

What you do not want to do is crush the Previousley crushed sleeve any more, therefore you use a torque which is Under the torque needed to crush the sleeve. This keeps your original crush sleeve dimension intact and correctly preloads your pinion bearings.

I do recomend using a new pinion nut everytime you take one off, this is one area that loctite just isnt good enough.

tangofox007 05-24-2013 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3789481)
I do recomend using a new pinion nut everytime you take one off, this is one area that loctite just isnt good enough.

Someone who cannot afford a new crush sleeve definitely can't afford a new pinion nut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3789481)
I've Reliably used the method Jerry mentioned on literally Hundreds of crush sleeve type rear ends over the past 30 plus years in the automotive repair business it works!

What measure of effectivemess was utilized to determine reliability?

Jerry Bransford 05-24-2013 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangofox007 (Post 3790136)
Someone who cannot afford a new crush sleeve definitely can't afford a new pinion nut.

As if removing the pinion gear, installing and properly setting a crush sleeve, removing/replacing the pinion bearing, & setting the pinion depth labor was even close in cost to simply threading on and tightening a new pinion nut. Few here are able to properly install and set a crush sleeve so it's not like the labor cost is not needed. You are indeed the grand master of snarky replies. :nonono:

flflash 05-24-2013 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangofox007 (Post 3790136)
Someone who cannot afford a new crush sleeve definitely can't afford a new pinion nut.

Like I said you reuse the crush sleeve that was previously compressed to the correct thickness. Reusing the pinion nut, which is a crimp style locking nut designed for one use in case you don't know is very important. If that nut backs off the least amount it destroys the pinion bearings and possibly the ring gear and pinion.


What measure of effectivemess was utilized to determine reliability?

Like I said I've done literally Hundreds of crush sleeve style rear ends over the past 30 years. I am a professional technician and stand behind my work and my customers continue to use my services. If I did'nt make reliable repairs they would'nt come back and I'd be doing something else for a living.

tangofox007 05-24-2013 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3790248)
Like I said I've done literally Hundreds of crush sleeve style rear ends over the past 30 years. I am a professional technician and stand behind my work and my customers continue to use my services. If I did'nt make reliable repairs they would'nt come back and I'd be doing something else for a living.

What's the name of your shop? And where is it located?

flflash 05-24-2013 06:52 PM

Currently I am the shop foreman at a large new car dealership located in Central Florida.

If you want and have lots of time I can start scanning and sending you copies of some of my certificates and awards along with pictures from several trips to Las Vegas where I was presented with some very prestigous awards for being one of the Top Technicians in the United States.

If you want to start a pissing contest about My Abilities as an Automotive Technician You've bitten of Way More Than You Can Chew!

tangofox007 05-24-2013 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 3790198)
As if removing the pinion gear, installing and properly setting a crush sleeve, removing/replacing the pinion bearing, & setting the pinion depth labor was even close in cost to simply threading on and tightening a new pinion nut.

On a Dana 35, replacing the crush sleeve is usually as simple as removing the outer bearing and sliding the sleeve off. There is no need to remove the pinion, no need to remove the inner bearing and no need to set the pinion depth. It's a bit disappointing that someone who clearly knows better would intentionally make the job seem a lot more complicated than it really is.

tangofox007 05-24-2013 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3790307)
If you want to start a pissing contest about My Abilities as an Automotive Technician You've bitten of Way More Than You Can Chew!

I just wanted to know where you work. You already told me everything about the quality of your work that I needed to know.

So…where do you work?

flflash 05-24-2013 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangofox007 (Post 3790328)
On a Dana 35, replacing the crush sleeve is usually as simple as removing the outer bearing and sliding the sleeve off. There is no need to remove the pinion, no need to remove the inner bearing and no need to set the pinion depth. It's a bit disappointing that someone who clearly knows better would intentionally make the job seem a lot more complicated than it really is.

Obviously you know very little about how to set up a crush sleeve style rear. In order to get the correct preload on the bearings the crush sleeve must be compressed until the turning torque of the pinion is at a specific setting measured in inch pounds with a beam style inch pound torque wrench. In order to be able to measure this you must remove the axles and carrier. if you fail to do this your not only measuring the pinion rotational force but also the ring gear/carrier and axle rotational force.

Your in way over your head, give up.

Jerry Bransford 05-24-2013 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangofox007 (Post 3790328)
On a Dana 35, replacing the crush sleeve is usually as simple as removing the outer bearing and sliding the sleeve off. There is no need to remove the pinion, no need to remove the inner bearing and no need to set the pinion depth. It's a bit disappointing that someone who clearly knows better would intentionally make the job seem a lot more complicated than it really is.

You don't know wtf you are talking about when you imply the costs of installing a crush sleeve vs. a pinion nut are even in the same galaxy. The guy you are arguing with has set up hundreds and makes his living as a tech. So exactly how many crush sleeves have you installed & set up?

IrateDonnie 05-24-2013 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangofox007 (Post 3789089)
Not so fast. You absolutely cannot use pinion nut torque as a reference on a pinion which is preloaded with a crush collar, such as a Dana 35. The nut torque will be fairly contant as the collar begins to crush; bearing preload, however, will increase dramatically. You must install a new crush collar. Proper procedure involves measuring pinion rotational torque before the nut is loosened, then returning to that torque plus 5 in/lbs for the new seal. Since you pressumably didn't measure the pre-dissasembly torque, best bet is to remove wheels and drums, then tighten to around 30 in/lbs of pinion rotational torque.

This ^^^ A buddy of mine in GA just messed up his d35 the same way by not installing a new crush collar. It took him about two days to realize he messed up when his diff started howling. I had never messed with any differentials other than wheel bearings, axles & the odd diff gasket, so I'm glad I learned the easy way (his mistake not mine :whistling:)

tangofox007 05-24-2013 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3790351)
In order to get the correct preload on the bearings the crush sleeve must be compressed until the turning torque of the pinion is at a specific setting measured in inch pounds with a beam style inch pound torque wrench. In order to be able to measure this you must remove the axles and carrier. if you fail to do this your not only measuring the pinion rotational force but also the ring gear/carrier and axle rotational force.

You are absolutely correct, if the job is to be done from scratch and with no shortcuts.

However, the FSM allows for a before-and-after rotational torque measurement when only the pinion seal and crush sleeve is replaced. That's a fact whether you are aware of it or not. In my experience, that value is typically in the 25-35 in/lb range with the carrier and axles in place. (Wheels and drums removed.)

Alternatively, one could measure the total torque with no pinion bearing preload, then add the requisite 10-20 in/lbs to that. For sure, a very low torque value is going to let you know that the pinion preload is in the too-low range.

flflash 05-24-2013 07:35 PM

Note that it says ASE MASTER TECHNICIAN

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps40e2d527.jpg

Highest Honor GM gives it's Technicians, note that this one is for This year, I have many more.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps235e4c7c.jpg

So lets see some of your qualifications?

flflash 05-24-2013 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangofox007 (Post 3790381)
You are absolutely correct, if the job is to be done from scratch and with no shortcuts.

However, the FSM allows for a before-and-after rotational torque measurement when only the pinion seal and crush sleeve is replaced. That's a fact whether you are aware of it or not. In my experience, that value is typically in the 25-35 in/lb range with the carrier and axles in place. (Wheels and drums removed.)

Alternatively, one could measure the total torque with no pinion bearing preload, then add the requisite 10-20 in/lbs to that. For sure, a very low torque value is going to let you know that the pinion preload is in the too-low range.

Are you going to continue to show just how little you know? If so I'm going to invite a few freinds over so they can have a good laugh also.

BTW The first ones funny but I'd really like to see someone attempt that second one :rofl:

tangofox007 05-24-2013 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3790417)

BTW The first ones funny but I'd really like to see someone attempt that second one :rofl:

Either the procedure is in the FSM or it isn't.

If it is, the joke is on you.

flflash 05-24-2013 07:54 PM

Jgood738, I'd like to apologize to you for your thread turning into what it has and hope you solve your concerns to your satisfaction.

I'd also highly recomend you follow Jerry's advice for a satisfactory repair.

If you have any further questions you feel I could help you with please feel free to PM me and I will be more than happy to assist.

flflash 05-24-2013 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangofox007 (Post 3790437)
Either the procedure is in the FSM or it isn't.

If it is, the joke is on you.

Excuse me sir but you Questioned my abilities and qualifications but have yet to show any of your own. Untill the time that you can show some form of usefull knowledge I have no further use for your banter.

In other words Pony Up or Go Home!

Jgood738 05-24-2013 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flflash (Post 3790456)
Jgood738, I'd like to apologize to you for your thread turning into what it has and hope you solve your concerns to your satisfaction.

I'd also highly recomend you follow Jerry's advice for a satisfactory repair.

If you have any further questions you feel I could help you with please feel free to PM me and I will be more than happy to assist.

No apology necessary. I plan to combine both yours and Jerry's advice by buying a new pinion nut and tightening it down to about 165lbs. I trust it will work. My old one has already loosened. I checked it after starting this thread. Thanks.

tangofox007 05-25-2013 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 3790357)
You don't know wtf you are talking about when you imply the costs of installing a crush sleeve vs. a pinion nut are even in the same galaxy.

The fact is the crush sleeve is about a $2 part. The additional time to do the job right versus simply cranking the pinion nut down is about 15-30 minutes. (Even if it was two hours, it would be two hours well spent.)

What is in a different galaxy is the cost of repairing the damage that can occur when the pinion bearing preload is not correct.

Jerry Bransford 05-25-2013 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangofox007 (Post 3791492)
The fact is the crush sleeve is about a $2 part. The additional time to do the job right versus simply cranking the pinion nut down is about 15-30 minutes. (Even if it was two hours, it would be two hours well spent.)

No one who has ever actually replaced the crush sleeve would ever imply it could be done in 15-20 minutes. Based on your bogus 15-20 minutes to do that job, it's absolutely clear you have never done one yourself. Yep, more like a couple hours for most people from start to finish... and VERY few people have the tools to provide the 250-300 ft-lbs. of torque it typically takes to initially start the crushing process on the sleeve.

tangofox007 05-25-2013 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 3791899)
No one who has ever actually replaced the crush sleeve would ever imply it could be done in 15-20 minutes. Based on your bogus 15-20 minutes to do that job, it's absolutely clear you have never done one yourself.

Do you have a special permit to play foot loose and fancy free with the facts?

Did I say that the entire job would take 15-20 minutes?

Or did I say that the additional time added to the pinion seal job by the crush sleeve replacement would increase the job by 15-30 minutes?

Does anyone else think it takes hours to torque a pinion nut? I know that I am faster than average, but not by that much!!! I must be stronger than average as well, because I crush the sleeves with a 25" breaker bar.


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