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-   -   NSA is watching... us? (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f6/nsa-is-watching-us-247676.html)

BlueRidgeYJ 06-06-2013 07:23 PM

So after guns to gangs, imperial warfare, drone strikes on untried citizens, IRS targeting of political groups, illegal CIA arms deals gone bad, etc, etc now we find out the NSA, an outward looking spy agency, has been spying on US citizens accused of no crimes at all and en mass. They have tapped your phone, required companies like Verizon to disclose everything about your phone habits, required Microsoft, Google, Apple, Youtube and other internet providers to disclose your information, including personal information and account details, so they can fish for terrorists (because our govt is too stupid to actually find any).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3397440.html
Or if you prefer Rupert to HuffPo

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...ion-excessive/

"The National Security Agency's seizure and surveillance of virtually all of Verizon's phone customers is an astounding assault on the Constitution," Sen. Rand Paul

20 million a year on a program that shreds the Constitution, started by Bush and continued by Bamers, with bipartisan support from congress. All under the Patriot Act, the most similar legislation to Hitlers Enabling Act ever passed by a democratic body.

Shame on Congress, Potus, CIA, NSA, IRS, FBI and all those associated with them. Everyday they make my life more dangerous and restrict my freedoms, then pretend to be 'protecting' me and my rights. Shame on them.

Megafriday 06-07-2013 12:04 AM

But, the Ministry of Truth named it the "Patriot" Act, so it must be OK, right?

jeepers29 06-07-2013 06:40 AM

There is not a single part of our government that we, as tax paying citizens, can trust.

PecosRiver 06-07-2013 08:41 AM

No comment. I recommend all of you not to comment.

Madden 06-07-2013 08:55 AM

I don't find this news incredibly shocking or disturbing just a confirmation of what we already knew.

jimbot 06-07-2013 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PecosRiver (Post 3835267)
No comment. I recommend all of you not to comment.

Why? Would the black helicopters swoop down and scoop me up if I commented?:rofl:

PecosRiver 06-07-2013 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbot (Post 3835754)
Why? Would the black helicopters swoop down and scoop me up if I commented?:rofl:

They're watching us as we type! Shhhh!

PecosRiver 06-07-2013 11:56 AM

My sister is all worked up about this and I've been screwing with her all morning about this. I guess I just carried it here without thinking about it.

damndirtydog 06-07-2013 01:00 PM

If they want to expend money,time and personnel to find out that I live a very mundane and boring life, then have at it.
And if u moved from the US of A to Yemen to plot how to kill US citizens then you deserve to have yer ass torpedo'd by a drone.
Surveillance.....better get used to it people. We brought it on ourselves with the computer age and our reliance on high tech electronics, smart phones, heck we even help it along by hanging out all our laundry on Facebook, twitter and social networks and even Wrangler forum. We would all probably be surprised who else besides the government knows our personal information, secrets and location.

Wranglin4Life 06-07-2013 01:38 PM

While this may be an invasion of privacy, think about why they are doing it. They are going about to track terrorist plots and prevent attacks or so they say.

I for one could care less because I have nothing to hide. I do agree its an invasion of privacy but complaining about it and getting all worked up about isnt going to solve anything. Its just going to make people not want to be around you because all you do is complain about politics.

I work with a guy that cant shut up about this and that and how 1 is better than the other. I just walk away and say I dont care every time because I have realized it doesnt matter what I think, if the government wants to do it there gonna do it one way or the other. With or without or approval.

BlueRidgeYJ 06-07-2013 05:16 PM

Interesting responses. Personally, I believe the Constitution still means something, I believe I was created with inalienable Rights, and I believe to circumvent the Constitution is to spit in the grave of every service member of the armed forces, ever, particularly those that gave their lives to give you recognition of those Rights. Even if it doesn't make me friends.

Go ahead and trade your essential liberty for temporary safety, see how it works out for ya. After all, history does repeat itself.

whetstone 06-07-2013 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wranglin4Life (Post 3836050)
While this may be an invasion of privacy, think about why they are doing it. They are going about to track terrorist plots and prevent attacks or so they say.

I for one could care less because I have nothing to hide. I do agree its an invasion of privacy but complaining about it and getting all worked up about isnt going to solve anything. Its just going to make people not want to be around you because all you do is complain about politics.

I work with a guy that cant shut up about this and that and how 1 is better than the other. I just walk away and say I dont care every time because I have realized it doesnt matter what I think, if the government wants to do it there gonna do it one way or the other. With or without or approval.

Are you saying that you think it's ok for our government to completely ignore our personal liberties, and bypass the constitution?

Titaness 06-07-2013 06:06 PM

I am not sure the constitution specifies a right to privacy nor any amendment. Please excuse me if I am wrong as English is not my first language and at times I still miss things when reading. I do think , however, that amendments possibly could be made to include Internet privacy. Perhaps someone could direct me to the right section. It is always up to interpretation as the the ammendments is a living and evolving document.

I see things like Internet , drivers licenses, cell phones etc as things you have THE RIGHT to use or NOT use as a "right" . Along with that choice comes the understanding that my privacy is not private. Kind of like driving. Driving is a'Privilege you have the right to choose to pursue or not to pursue . The choice is your "right". Choosing that Privilege entails many things including your personal information.

That being said, I Mentioned in another thread having lived under a dictator and what life is like never being sure of your liberties. I found the patriot act confusing . To protect my rights.....

BlueRidgeYJ 06-07-2013 06:28 PM

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment, United States Constitution

It means a Judge has to decide there is 'probably cause' for a search to occur. There is no reason to suspect EVERY Verizon customer is a threat to national security. There is no reason to suspect EVERY internet user is a terrorist.

Very simply put: 1) you support the government and its usurpation of authority for police state monitoring, or 2) you support the United States Constitution. Those are the only choices here, folks. You CANNOT support both, that is like being a Catholic priest that performs abortions in his off time.

damndirtydog 06-07-2013 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ (Post 3836781)
Interesting responses. Personally, I believe the Constitution still means something, I believe I was created with inalienable Rights, and I believe to circumvent the Constitution is to spit in the grave of every service member of the armed forces, ever, particularly those that gave their lives to give you recognition of those Rights. Even if it doesn't make me friends.

Go ahead and trade your essential liberty for temporary safety, see how it works out for ya. After all, history does repeat itself.

Then what's the answer? How do we get to the end game? Do we take up arms against the government like Libya, like Syria? And wind up with a corrupt government that is no better than the last?
Government going to do what the governments been doing since 1776, in the open or covertly for our "National Security".

What do we need? Definitly more checks and balances. But, can't do that. That would mean bigger government larger deficit and a field day for Fox news.
Better elected officials....yes. But they're great on the campaign trail, and then fall comfortably into the same good Ol' Boy system of government as the last schmuck that was voted out, and that is the circle of life.
So what can every day "Joe Jeepster" do besides, write your congressman and be an educated voter? And, aside form amassing an arsonal of guns and ammunition?:popcorn:

CrazyBull 06-07-2013 06:30 PM

Does this mean I can't be hooch anymore in my backyard?

damndirtydog 06-07-2013 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainynite (Post 3836967)
Does this mean I can't be hooch anymore in my backyard?

Best pay your taxes on all that hooch your making.
Eventhough Koosharem can be mistaken as fly dump on a map, I'm sure the IRS and CIA have every available satellite zoomed in on your backyard.
Watch out for them drones Rainynite!:hide:

BlueRidgeYJ 06-07-2013 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damndirtydog (Post 3836962)

Then what's the answer? How do we get to the end game? Do we take up arms against the government like Libya, like Syria? And wind up with a corrupt government that is no better than the last?
Government going to do what the governments been doing since 1776, in the open or covertly for our "National Security".

What do we need? Definitly more checks and balances. But, can't do that. That would mean bigger government larger deficit and a field day for Fox news.
Better elected officials....yes. But they're great on the campaign trail, and then fall comfortably into the same good Ol' Boy system of government as the last schmuck that was voted out, and that is the circle of life.
So what can every day "Joe Jeepster" do besides, write your congressman and be an educated voter? And, aside form amassing an arsonal of guns and ammunition?:popcorn:

Yes, we should contact all our reps to ensure they know how we feel. We must also peacefully assemble for redress of grievence, when needed.

Just so we are clear, you are ok with wastefull police state spending, direct violations of constitutional amendments, and assasination of Americans without due process of law?

1jeeplvr 06-07-2013 07:57 PM

They are going to be very bored if they watch me.Home,work,home,work,home,work on Jeep,home.

aelwero 06-07-2013 08:45 PM

I just googled "how to make a bomb big enough to blow up the US Capitol Building using common household items". Got the stopwatch going to see how long it takes before the ninjas show up.

Personally, I don't believe there is anywhere near enough organization in the government to even be able to store that much data, much less sort out anything useful... and even if they figure that out, they won't share any useful data with anyone who could actually act on it. Which government action was it that led folks to think they are planning to disarm the public and track 300 million peoples' search histories, phone calls, and mobile data usage? Was it the hope and change we all have coming out our ears? the transparency? the 2.5 million jobs we saved/created? Oooooh I know, it's all those "shovel ready" infrastructure projects popping up all over the country. Yeah man, it's booming :)

Of course, if I'm wrong, and the ninjas show up, it was nice knowing you all ;)

{serious} This is totally setting aside the 4th amendment (essential liberty) in the name of fighting terrorists (personal security), and I won't be the lest bit surprised if we wind up holding a big bag of poo... (having neither) {/serious}

damndirtydog 06-07-2013 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ (Post 3837197)
Yes, we should contact all our reps to ensure they know how we feel. We must also peacefully assemble for redress of grievence, when needed.

Just so we are clear, you are ok with wastefull police state spending, direct violations of constitutional amendments, and assasination of Americans without due process of law?

Well for question #1 not really
#2 not really
#3 not if they can be apprehended and brought to trial.
If hiding out in a rogue state like a ferrett and enough evidence of subversive acts toward the USA and it's citizens, but can't be apprehended, gonna have to go with, BOMBS AWAY on that one.
I don't disagree with you on just about all points, but I really don't think there's much that the everyday Schmo is going to be able to do regarding spying and covert government surveillance on the masses in the name of national security.
I still think that if you're doing nothing wrong, then you got nothing to worry about. Things have change since 1776, and tactics have to change. When the next 9/11 happens people are going to say OMG how could our government not have known something like that was going to happen!! Because the only tool we've allowed our homeland security to have is a magnifying glass like Sherlock Homes.
I'd kind of like to know how the families of the dead and the hundred or so of victims that had their arms and legs blown off in Boston feel.
I say yea if it would have saved their loved ones then and mine and yours in the future, I'll send the friggin CIA my damn phone bill.

aelwero 06-07-2013 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damndirtydog (Post 3837625)
When the next 9/11 happens people are going to say OMG how could our government not have known something like that was going to happen!! Because the only tool we've allowed our homeland security to have is a magnifying glass like Sherlock Homes.

so... you put 100 people in a room. You tell 2 guys they're in charge.

What you're saying is that those 2 guys can search everyone in the room, can monitor all their phone calls, can read any written notes they send to each other, all in the off chance one of them plans to commit a crime at some point...

I think it's perfectly acceptable for the government not to have known about 9/11 before hand, and not to know about the next "needle in a haystack" fiasco some tard thinks up. The only way to have prior knowledge of the next 9/11 type event is for them to have their fingers and eyes into everything everywhere, and to toss the 4th amendment, and by proxy, the entire foundation of our Country, out the window.

You're advocating the removal of an essential liberty for the sake of personal safety, and you're on track to lose both your liberty AND your personal safety.

I understand that people should be nice upstanding folks and not have anything to hide and not be worried, but in that spirit, we are collectively allowing the very basics of our Constitution and Bill of Rights to be "creatively reinterpreted" into no longer really existing.

It's like boiling a frog... drop it in hot water and it jumps out... draft an amendment suspending one of the bill of rights and there would be uproar. Put a frog in cold water and gradually heat it and it sits there and boils to death without moving... draft the Patriot Act, and then "interpret" it to slowly remove one of the bill of rights, and people say "you shouldn't have anything to hide" until there no longer IS anywhere to hide, and the ninjas come for you....

Carlsbad0331 06-08-2013 01:06 AM

Isnt this what the NSA is tasked to do? My personal feeling is that since I am not doing anything wrong, I have nothing to fear from the NSA, the TSA, the FBI, the DEA or the CIA...
Those who ARE doing something wrong, have something to fear... and I am good with that!

Titaness 06-08-2013 07:38 AM

Thanks blue ridge ! I think I misinterpreted the 4th ammendment. As apparently do the powers that be. I guess its to be interpreted? Privacy is an implied right? Is that why Internet and cell phone information may not fall under that right. Interesting.

BlueRidgeYJ 06-08-2013 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titaness (Post 3838526)
Thanks blue ridge ! I think I misinterpreted the 4th ammendment. As apparently do the powers that be. I guess its to be interpreted? Privacy is an implied right? Is that why Internet and cell phone information may not fall under that right. Interesting.

Correct, the government cannot legally investigate you, like you are a criminal, unless a govt agent under 'Oath or affirmation' declares to a judge your individual case and the judge agrees there is likely criminal involvement. This includes police asking for your papers, and is also why roadblocks are unconstitutional. Phone tapping is WAY beyond this (and our judges have long ago decided that).

The stroke of a pen may make your Rights disappear, but you still have them. They are just being deprived by your federal officials. Or in a word, that's tyranny. It is illegal to pass bills violating Rights, like the patriot act.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlsbad0331 (Post 3838190)
Isnt this what the NSA is tasked to do? My personal feeling is that since I am not doing anything wrong, I have nothing to fear from the NSA, the TSA, the FBI, the DEA or the CIA...
Those who ARE doing something wrong, have something to fear... and I am good with that!

Wtf, really? Didn't you swear an oath to uphold the US Constitution? And you think this is 'what they are tasked to do', despite its obvious violation of the United States Bill of Rights?

I, too, have no worries about my non-existant criminal involvement, but that doesn't mean I will sacrifice my rights, or the rights of others, to appease a tyrannical government. Do you have the same disdain for the Second Amendment that you do for the fourth? Would you be OK giving up all firearms because you have 'nothing to fear' and our big bad army will keep your RIGHTS safe and protected, as claimed? Somehow I doubt you would.

Of course, under the post 9/11 police state legislation and directives, this course of discussion, redress of grievence, is 'illegal'. Unconstitutionally so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by damndirtydog (Post 3837625)

Well for question #1 not really
#2 not really
#3 not if they can be apprehended and brought to trial.
If hiding out in a rogue state like a ferrett and enough evidence of subversive acts toward the USA and it's citizens, but can't be apprehended, gonna have to go with, BOMBS AWAY on that one.
I don't disagree with you on just about all points, but I really don't think there's much that the everyday Schmo is going to be able to do regarding spying and covert government surveillance on the masses in the name of national security.
I still think that if you're doing nothing wrong, then you got nothing to worry about. Things have change since 1776, and tactics have to change. When the next 9/11 happens people are going to say OMG how could our government not have known something like that was going to happen!! Because the only tool we've allowed our homeland security to have is a magnifying glass like Sherlock Homes.
I'd kind of like to know how the families of the dead and the hundred or so of victims that had their arms and legs blown off in Boston feel.
I say yea if it would have saved their loved ones then and mine and yours in the future, I'll send the friggin CIA my damn phone bill.

Well I am glad you don't actually advocate spying, tyranny, or murder. That's good.

What about the thousands that died giving your rights legal recognition? Should we forget what they did for us just because it is a scary world? Maybe we should stop pissing off so many nations, including our own, if we want our children to not get blown up. The only thing different between now and 1789 is the mindset of our population.

Carlsbad0331 06-08-2013 12:53 PM

Yes, I did swear an oath to uphold the constitution of the United States. And I shed blood (multiple times) for this country. And I would do it all over again, and still work in an industry that has ties to the government..
BUT, it is obvious that the constitution is interpreted differently by different people. I do not see this (and this is NOT new news, this was discussed well over a year ago) as a violation of my rights. If having some super computer scanning phone records (not actual phone calls) is going to avert some catastrophic event on American soil, then so be it. If putting video cameras on every street corner is going to aid in the capture and conviction of criminals, so be it... I am not doing anything wrong and I do not fear that which does not involve me.

BlueRidgeYJ 06-08-2013 03:00 PM

Well don't worry, I'll support your Rights.

Btw, would you give up your guns to prevent shootings like those in Santa Monica? Or is that too far and would not work, anyway? If everyone bought healthcare, we would all be healthier and have lower bills, just like with driving - do you agree with that mandate? I understand your hesitation to answer, as it exposes the hypocrisy in your arguement. As someone recently told me, we cannot pick and choose the parts to it that we like - we support it, or we don't.

I do not find it the least bit surprising that those employed by the military industrial complex have no problem with its expansion, even when it obviously directly violates a simple english amendment. Because then THEY may be paid 85-100k in tax money a year to 'analyze' innocent Americans activities, or at least sell some gizmos to those who are.

Anybody else remember that thread we had about military not obeying orders because they were unconstitutional where I was lambasted for the mere suggestion they would obey them? :whistling:

Pennsyman 06-08-2013 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ (Post 3839337)
Well don't worry, I'll support your Rights.

Btw, would you give up your guns to prevent shootings like those in Santa Monica? Or is that too far and would not work, anyway? If everyone bought healthcare, we would all be healthier and have lower bills, just like with driving - do you agree with that mandate? I understand your hesitation to answer, as it exposes the hypocrisy in your arguement. As someone recently told me, we cannot pick and choose the parts to it that we like - we support it, or we don't.

I do not find it the least bit surprising that those employed by the military industrial complex have no problem with its expansion, even when it obviously directly violates a simple english amendment. Because then THEY may be paid 85-100k in tax money a year to 'analyze' innocent Americans activities, or at least sell some gizmos to those who are.

Anybody else remember that thread we had about military not obeying orders because they were unconstitutional where I was lambasted for the mere suggestion they would obey them? :whistling:

Gee golly gosh Blue Ridge...we're just all so lucky to have YOU here to set us all on the straight and narrow. Thank goodness you are such an expert on the Constitution...

Walkingstick 06-08-2013 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damndirtydog (Post 3836962)

Then what's the answer? How do we get to the end game? Do we take up arms against the government like Libya, like Syria? And wind up with a corrupt government that is no better than the last?
Government going to do what the governments been doing since 1776, in the open or covertly for our "National Security".

What do we need? Definitly more checks and balances. But, can't do that. That would mean bigger government larger deficit and a field day for Fox news.
Better elected officials....yes. But they're great on the campaign trail, and then fall comfortably into the same good Ol' Boy system of government as the last schmuck that was voted out, and that is the circle of life.
So what can every day "Joe Jeepster" do besides, write your congressman and be an educated voter? And, aside form amassing an arsonal of guns and ammunition?:popcorn:

I refer to Benjamin Franklin's quote on government. He knew that, eventually, the Government would become corrupt and thus have to be overthrown... If all else failed. Unfortunately, we are a tipping point and to be honest we may need to vigorously defend ourselves sooner or later.

Walkingstick 06-08-2013 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aelwero (Post 3837410)
I just googled "how to make a bomb big enough to blow up the US Capitol Building using common household items". Got the stopwatch going to see how long it takes before the ninjas show up.

Personally, I don't believe there is anywhere near enough organization in the government to even be able to store that much data, much less sort out anything useful... and even if they figure that out, they won't share any useful data with anyone who could actually act on it. Which government action was it that led folks to think they are planning to disarm the public and track 300 million peoples' search histories, phone calls, and mobile data usage? Was it the hope and change we all have coming out our ears? the transparency? the 2.5 million jobs we saved/created? Oooooh I know, it's all those "shovel ready" infrastructure projects popping up all over the country. Yeah man, it's booming :)

Of course, if I'm wrong, and the ninjas show up, it was nice knowing you all ;)

{serious} This is totally setting aside the 4th amendment (essential liberty) in the name of fighting terrorists (personal security), and I won't be the lest bit surprised if we wind up holding a big bag of poo... (having neither) {/serious}

You would be surprised. The NSA is building/built a new Data storage facility in Utah.
I suggest you look it up.


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