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-   -   Help me understand Limited Slip Diffs and Brake Lock Diffs (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/help-me-understand-limited-slip-diffs-and-brake-lock-diffs-253614.html)

Rack Ops 07-04-2013 02:08 PM

Help me understand Limited Slip Diffs and Brake Lock Diffs
 
I read everywhere that a LSD, even when coupled with a Jeep's BLD will never be the full equal of a Locker.

I've read that everywhere.....the forums, off road mags, and even interviews with Jeep engineers. I'm confident that it is the truth, even though I can't understand why. I'm certain I'm missing something, I just don't know what it is.....so I hope some kind soul will educate me. Also, feel free to correct me if I'm using incorrect terminology.

Let's start with what I think I know:

A locker ensures both wheels get the same amount of torque....always speading it 50-50...regardless of if a wheel is getting traction or not. This allows a jeep to jeep moving forward even if, for example, a wheel is in the air.

A limited-slip differential will pull power from a wheel that is slipping and transfer it to the other tire in an amount dependent on how much torque is required to turn the wheel that is spinning fastest......an Eaton Truetrac, for example, can transfer 3 times the amount of torque being used by the slipping tire to to the on that isn't. A major weakness is that if a wheel is in the air, its requires almost no power to spin, which means the other tire is getting virtually no power as well.

Now the Jeep's BLD comes in to play and this is is the part where I feel like I'm missing something.

If a tire begins to slip on a Jeep, the the vehicle automatically brakes the slipping wheel, forcing power to the other side........the obvious weakness is that you are wasting power braking a wheel that isn't gripping and the absolute best you could hope for is half of your available power being forced to the wheel with traction (here's my first head scratcher. Isn't 50% the best a locker can give you on an individual wheel too?)

Now combine the BLD with LSD like the trutrac. Since the TT can transfer 3 times the torque to the "good" wheel, couldn't a TT/BLD combo transfer up to 75% of available torque to the good wheel? I have to be missing something here, because everyone would run this setup otherwise.

redbilly 07-04-2013 03:13 PM

To start with, the available torque is 50%. That is the max that the engine can give to one wheel. So if one wheels slips, it loses torque. In an open diff or LSD the amount of traction on one wheel has, has an effect on the other wheel's available power.

BLD involves moving at low speeds and stopping one wheel to increase available torque that can be halved for the wheel with traction.

A locking diff or welded diff provides equal torque and speed to each wheel all of the time. There is no way for one wheel to move faster than the other, and thus torque is perfectly kept even.

What are the drawbacks? BLD is really only effective at low speeds and when one wheel has traction. How effective is this in the mud or loose gravel??? Zero!

LSD is always on. It has to deal with a lot! It needs to open when turning and close partially when a torque imbalance is detected that is not cause by normal on-road operations. The best it can hope for is moderate success when engaged. Moderate is enough in some situations, but not all. Fortunately they have no really drawback on the road. In serious off road situations where real power is need to continue, they are found wanting.

Selectable diffs are closed when you want them closed and on when you want them on. They truly lock the axles as if they were welded; all power all the time. They don't allow for any speed variance when locked. This can prove difficult in off camber driving off road and can be treacherous if engaged on pavement.

I was wheeling two weeks ago and decided to try and get stuck in a monster bog. I put the Jeep in 4 lo and my mud tires actually made it hard to get stopped if you know how to drive. I slammed on the brakes right in the middle and decided not to back over my compressed tracks. Forward was the only choice. I let the BLD do its thing, completely ineffective. I don't have a limited slip so I could not test that. Truthfully, a little bit of power would have gotten me started again, and the paddles take care of the rest. I flipped on the lockers and let my mudders dig and shed. Next thing you know I am crawling forward.

If you are off road and you need power, nothing but a full locker will do. The locker also allows you to move slower over objects since power is always there. The other two can save your butt in some situations, but they should not be thought of as recovery tools. When I think of what will keep me from needing a tow, a winch is #1, a locker is #2, the others don't rank.

You can still get stuck with lockers and a winch. The best recovery tool is a buddy! Correct if am wrong on any of this. Is 4pm on the 4th of July, so this reply comes alcohol fueled!!! :)

michiganadam 07-04-2013 03:28 PM

Second that on a buddy, but where do i find one of those?

WInches only work if you have something to anchor to. If you're 5000 feet from a tree.....haha.

redbilly 07-04-2013 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michiganadam (Post 3927830)
Second that on a buddy, but where do i find one of those?

WInches only work if you have something to anchor to. If you're 5000 feet from a tree.....haha.

You are right!!! A buddy is always #1! Michigan is close to Indiana....

jadmt 07-04-2013 03:45 PM

I agree for extreme offroading there is no substitute for a locker but I am pretty amazed at how well the limited slip works in my wrangler. I have had many limited slips before and mostly they were marginal at best. I swear the one in my wrangler seems to kick in super fast. Maybe the BLD makes it seem like it is more active maybe it is just the equal weight bias front to rear I don't know, but I do know I can go up some really loose steep hills without engaging 4 hi or lo with no rear wheel spinning..

redbilly 07-04-2013 04:20 PM

As a correction to my first post, non-conical limited slip differentials (atypical in automotive applications) can theoretically provide more than 50% of the torque-in value. This would greatly benefit a vehicle in single wheel traction loss situations. The trouble would arise in conditions where both wheels were encountering traction variance. A closed differential is not smart enough to care. It pounds the terrain with brute force regardless of traction gain or loss.

Welding Rod 07-04-2013 04:41 PM

My experience doesn't jive with that above (post 2 para 4). My experience is that BLDs work best at higher speeds, say more than a couple miles per hour, and not as well at the very slowest speeds.

In my new JKUS it seems easy to get and keep all 4 wheels spinning as long as the the slipping tires' speed is brought up a bit. Slowly adding only a very small amount of gas from a dead stop can result in a very slow spin speed and failure to activate a BLD benefit.

So far it has seemed the only thing needed to fix this was to add a little more throttle to kick in the BLD action and then all 4 tires would spin and / or drive forward.

This got me up a long very slick wet clay 2 track the other day. I wrote. A post about a few days ago: "BLDs work pretty good".

At more normal road speeds on wet asphalt the the BLD kicks in quickly when a tire starts to spin, such as during heavy acceleration off a stop.

In my 2009 Dodge Challenger I was amazed to see how well a BLD can work. From a standing start on dry smooth asphalt, in a straight line, I hammered it and held it down. This left two continuous strips of rubber on the pavement something like 180 feet long before the road speed was high enough that all slip stopped on both tires. I don't know what the road speed was, but it was moving pretty good, my guess 50 plus MPH.

The Challenger would also hang the rear out spinning both tires under heavy throttle while cornering. This is not how an open diff behaves.

Coming very slowly and gently off a dead start, say backing up steep sandy paved hill, it also requires some throttle to get the free tire spin speed high enough to activate the BLD, then it works fine.

So in my experience, the BLD weakness is at the very slowest tire speeds, normally coming very slowly and gently off a dead start. Beyond that, I haven't been able to detect a significant difference in operation with BLD and a conventional limited slip differential.

On a side note, I had Detroit locker in my 2WD Ranger. I hated it. When ever the truck was transversing a side hill, when the locker activated the rear end would head down slope, perpendicular to the desired direction of travel. I replaced the locker with an Auburn limited slip and loved it. I used the pickup mostly for very fast "prerunning" type use.

river2c 07-04-2013 05:34 PM

The biggest difference is a LSD/BLD has to "slip" or "spin" (lose traction) before it kicks in and works effectively. Although this may happen in a fraction of a second, it's not as effective as a locker that always has power to both wheels. A LSD/BLD is considered superior to a locker in most snow, gravel, and icy pavement conditions. Offroad, when the vehicle's traction is constantly shifting from one side to another and from front to rear, a locker is far superior.

panthermark 07-04-2013 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welding Rod (Post 3927982)
My experience doesn't jive with that above (post 2 para 4). My experience is that BLDs work best at higher speeds, say more than a couple miles per hour, and not as well at the very slowest speeds.

In my new JKUS it seems easy to get and keep all 4 wheels spinning as long as the the slipping tires' speed is brought up a bit. Slowly adding only a very small amount of gas from a dead stop can result in a very slow spin speed and failure to activate a BLD benefit.

So far it has seemed the only thing needed to fix this was to add a little more throttle to kick in the BLD action and then all 4 tires would spin and / or drive forward.

This got me up a long very slick wet clay 2 track the other day. I wrote. A post about a few days ago: "BLDs work pretty good".

At more normal road speeds on wet asphalt the the BLD kicks in quickly when a tire starts to spin, such as during heavy acceleration off a stop.

In my 2009 Dodge Challenger I was amazed to see how well a BLD can work. From a standing start on dry smooth asphalt, in a straight line, I hammered it and held it down. This left two continuous strips of rubber on the pavement something like 180 feet long before the road speed was high enough that all slip stopped on both tires. I don't know what the road speed was, but it was moving pretty good, my guess 50 plus MPH.

The Challenger would also hang the rear out spinning both tires under heavy throttle while cornering. This is not how an open diff behaves.

Coming very slowly and gently off a dead start, say backing up steep sandy paved hill, it also requires some throttle to get the free tire spin speed high enough to activate the BLD, then it works fine.

So in my experience, the BLD weakness is at the very slowest tire speeds, normally coming very slowly and gently off a dead start. Beyond that, I haven't been able to detect a significant difference in operation with BLD and a conventional limited slip differential.

On a side note, I had Detroit locker in my 2WD Ranger. I hated it. When ever the truck was transversing a side hill, when the locker activated the rear end would head down slope, perpendicular to the desired direction of travel. I replaced the locker with an Auburn limited slip and loved it. I used the pickup mostly for very fast "prerunning" type use.

For your Charger or high speed, you are talking about traction control, not bld.

Welding Rod 07-04-2013 07:54 PM

Challenger, not Charger.

By any name, a spinning tire is having a brake applied, sending power to the other side, with the end result being both tires on the same axle getting power and/or spinning, depending on how much throttle was applied.

live_slow 07-04-2013 08:48 PM

There are multiple brake-lock diff videos on you tube...

Here's Jeeps own animation, brake lock diff starts at like 1:30 or 1:35

The Jeep® Command-Trac® 4WD - YouTube

Here's an 08 Jeep in his yard showing how it works (sort of)

2008 JEEP JK Brake Lock Differential(BLD) - YouTube

Here's one (warning it's Toyota) that shows open, lsd and brake lock in a row, with animation, starting at about 2:30

How a Differential Works and Types of Differentials - YouTube

n00g7 07-04-2013 08:57 PM

literally nothing that has been said here is correct, lol

i'm going to suck down another beer and consider coming back to this tomorrow unless someone else rights this train

redbilly 07-04-2013 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n00g7 (Post 3928492)
literally nothing that has been said here is correct, lol

i'm going to suck down another beer and consider coming back to this tomorrow unless someone else rights this train

Please enlighten us with your knowledge of differentials....

n00g7 07-05-2013 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rack Ops (Post 3927641)
A locker ensures both wheels get the same amount of torque....always speading it 50-50...regardless of if a wheel is getting traction or not. This allows a jeep to jeep moving forward even if, for example, a wheel is in the air.

False, it's completely the opposite. An open diff is 50-50, Locker can output any ratio. Practical example, how much torque do you need to spin a wheel in the air? essentially 0. The one on the ground, much more. Hence, with the open diff, you're stuck because the wheel with grip also gets literally 0 torque so you don't move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rack Ops (Post 3927641)
A limited-slip differential will pull power from a wheel that is slipping and transfer it to the other tire in an amount dependent on how much torque is required to turn the wheel that is spinning fastest......

Complete term confusion. An LSD mechanically adds resistance to the wheel that's turning faster. Thus increasing the torque required to turn the wheel. As a consequence, the wheel with more grip has more available torque in the 50-50 relationship of the open diff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rack Ops (Post 3927641)
an Eaton Truetrac, for example, can transfer 3 times the amount of torque being used by the slipping tire to to the on that isn't.

increases the torque required to spin the slipping wheel by 3 times and thus allows the other wheel to put out 3 times greater torque than it otherwise would have in the 50-50 open diff relationship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rack Ops (Post 3927641)
A major weakness in extreme offroad situations is that if a wheel is in the air, its requires almost no [[power]] torque to spin, which means the other tire is getting virtually no [[power]] torque as well.

Mostly correct. Power =/ torque. LSD is highly advantageous for on-road conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rack Ops (Post 3927641)
Now the Jeep's BLD comes in to play and this is is the part where I feel like I'm missing something.

The BLD is a slow acting eLSD for off-road situations. I'm not sure if the JK has an actual eLSD for on-road conditions. Traction control, defacto, has some eLSD type operation, but is only a true eLSD if it acts independently of and prior to the other TC systems. These both work according to the principles of the LSD as explained above.

Mechanical LSD will always be faster and is the better option.


Quote:

Originally Posted by redbilly (Post 3927791)
To start with, the available torque is 50%. That is the max that the engine can give to one wheel. So if one wheels slips, it loses torque. In an open diff or LSD the amount of traction on one wheel has, has an effect on the other wheel's available power.

See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbilly (Post 3927791)
BLD involves moving at low speeds and stopping one wheel to increase available torque that can be halved for the wheel with traction.

BLD involves moving at low speeds and stopping one wheel to increase the amount of torque required to spin the slipping wheel. In turn, the non-slipping wheel may output the same amount of torque.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbilly (Post 3927791)
A locking diff or welded diff provides equal torque and speed to each wheel all of the time. There is no way for one wheel to move faster than the other, and thus torque is perfectly kept even.

See above.


Quote:

Originally Posted by redbilly (Post 3927791)
What are the drawbacks? BLD is really only effective at low speeds and when one wheel has traction. How effective is this in the mud or loose gravel??? Zero!

It would be effective if Chrysler used a better program and faster CPU. As is now, it's eclectic and sucks in both those situations because it's on or off.


Quote:

Originally Posted by redbilly (Post 3927791)
LSD is always on. It has to deal with a lot! It needs to open when turning and close partially when a torque imbalance is detected that is not cause by normal on-road operations. The best it can hope for is moderate success when engaged. Moderate is enough in some situations, but not all. Fortunately they have no really drawback on the road. In serious off road situations where real power is need to continue, they are found wanting.

There are torque sensing and slip sensing LSDs. They're different, but not worth going into.

Happy 4th.

Welding Rod 07-05-2013 12:59 AM

My 2013 JKUS BLD works well beyond a crawl. In 2WD on logging roads with the ESP off you can hang the rear end out, shooting gravel off both rear tires at the same time, same as my Challenger.

Same from a standing start. ESP off it will dig two Continuous trenches until you let off the gas.

In my experience there hasn't been any perceptible throttle cut or any peg legging with the ESP off at any speeds i have tried that the engine still had enough power to easily spin the tires.

mcgee10 07-05-2013 06:31 AM

Let me give this another spin. When I bought my 2012 Jeep sport I knew I already had 2 Eaton trutrac waiting for it. And the push button disco was not worth $5000 to me.
So I changed my rear differential to a trutrac and my buddy talked me into adding a Eaton E locker to the front. The wheeling we do here in Michigan involves a lot of muddies twisty curvy tight ass wooded trails. I just could not turn my jeep when I was locked up front. Well I removed the E locker and put another truetrac in the front. Now the thing is a beast in the woods. I can and have out performed my buddies Rubi for that same reason they can't wheel the tight turns with there front differential locked.

boon4376 07-05-2013 07:38 AM

LSD and BLD do need speed, this is problematic when you are crawling in first gear in low range - you may never build enough speed for them to be activated (or fully activated)... In some situations the slipping wheel will build enough speed to activate it... But in low range in first or second gear, maybe not. (and definitely not with BLD which is disabled in low range).

I'm not sure about Jeep's LSD's, but most LSD's are not computer controlled - they are activated by oil heating up and compressing clutch plates together when speed variance / slipping occurs between the wheels on the same axel. When the clutch plates compress, they essentially lock - though not as well as a welded lock. They work better at higher speeds because the oil heats up and expands more to compress the clutch plates together at higher speeds, when there is a greater variance between the two wheels... They will continue to slip as the oil cools and re-heats up over and over again, it has the advantage of being a 24/7 type of system compared to a true locker which needs to be enabled and disabled according to circumstance.

- at low speeds - there is less heat, and thus less compression and lock.

It is because of this need for higher speed on an LSD that true-lockers are the only thing that are really good for crawling in low range - In mud or sand where there is a lot of slipping at higher speeds, the LSD is likely to compress almost as well as a true locker, and provide nearly identical benefit to the driver.

The brake locks work well enough in most situations for those rocking a stock jeep, or even a stock jeep with beefy tires... But they still need some speed to kick in, and can only transfer as much torque as the brake system can brake from the slipping wheel... The quality of this varies greatly between manufacturers. For example, on a Honda CR-V - they wont transfer that much torque by design and lack of necessity (and it's just called traction control). From what I have seen in videos, the Jeep system is much more aggressive compared to many other manufacturers, and can do a pretty good job moving a jeep when only 1-2 wheels have traction.

However, in sand, brake lock can sometimes be detrimental, because when you brake, you "dig" or cause the other wheels to dig, and in sand, it's best to just disable the brake-lock system. It's better suited for low-traction on non-soft surfaces at speeds above 3 MPH

live_slow 07-05-2013 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgee10 (Post 3929156)
Let me give this another spin. When I bought my 2012 Jeep sport I knew I already had 2 Eaton trutrac waiting for it. And the push button disco was not worth $5000 to me.
So I changed my rear differential to a trutrac and my buddy talked me into adding a Eaton E locker to the front. The wheeling we do here in Michigan involves a lot of muddies twisty curvy tight ass wooded trails. I just could not turn my jeep when I was locked up front. Well I removed the E locker and put another truetrac in the front. Now the thing is a beast in the woods. I can and have out performed my buddies Rubi for that same reason they can't wheel the tight turns with there front differential locked.

I understand that, but probably not your original question.

I guess the bottom line is said best by Eaton "The Truetrac is a helical gear limited slip differential and never “locks up”. The Truetrac operates by transferring power from the spinning wheel to the wheel with the most traction. If one tire breaks traction, the amount of rotation (or spin) is controlled. The torque is then sent to the other tire that still has traction."

This is what gives you the advantages you have observed for your conditions.


If your original question what about what the factory Jeep BLD system does with your truetracs installed, I have no clue.
Perhaps your buddies with e-lockers should leave them off when doing the more twisty sections of the trails, assuming they can maintain the necessary traction.

The factory Rubicon is set up to aide "walking over" rocks, "walking through" off camber situations that require maximum articulation, and "walking up and down" inclines. The expense for those options is justified by folks who want the 4:1 crawl, the e-disco and the factory e-lockers off the floor.

If your truetracs are working well for your conditions, you have the right tool for the job! :thumb: (I went cheap on my XJ and did a lunchbox locker in the rear, didn't much like it unless I was offroad. Click Click Pop on the street.)

n00g7 07-05-2013 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welding Rod (Post 3928965)
My 2013 JKUS BLD works well beyond a crawl. In 2WD on logging roads with the ESP off you can hang the rear end out, shooting gravel off both rear tires at the same time, same as my Challenger.

Same from a standing start. ESP off it will dig two Continuous trenches until you let off the gas.

In my experience there hasn't been any perceptible throttle cut or any peg legging with the ESP off at any speeds i have tried that the engine still had enough power to easily spin the tires.

Could you put one tire on pavement and the other on gravel or grass, floor it, and see what happens?

Welding Rod 07-05-2013 12:07 PM

Sure. I will do that today.

Boon - Why do you think BLD is deactivated in lo-range?

My 2013 definitely operates in lo. I have spent days creeping around in lo and have clearly seen all 4 tires spinning simultaneously on slick uphill surfaces, and have seen power getting sent to the tires with traction when one or two were hanging over a deep ditch / rut.

boon4376 07-05-2013 02:05 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Welding Rod (Post 3929833)
Sure. I will do that today.

Boon - Why do you think BLD is deactivated in lo-range?

My 2013 definitely operates in lo. I have spent days creeping around in lo and have clearly seen all 4 tires spinning simultaneously on slick uphill surfaces, and have seen power getting sent to the tires with traction when one or two were hanging over a deep ditch / rut.

Sorry, just realized it says ESC off, not traction control. My mistake. It does remain on. Good to know!

Many vehicles do disable traction control in low range.

Attachment 269151

2resa 07-05-2013 02:06 PM

:popcorn:

panthermark 07-05-2013 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welding Rod (Post 3928371)
Challenger, not Charger.

By any name, a spinning tire is having a brake applied, sending power to the other side, with the end result being both tires on the same axle getting power and/or spinning, depending on how much throttle was applied.


For Wrangler's in specific, BLD is the off-road software of the traction control.

So there is BLD the software (as we use it in a Wrangler), and BLD the function....as in a brake assisted (fake) electronic LSD. Both terms are used here, so it can get a bit confusing.

live_slow 07-05-2013 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panthermark (Post 3930641)
For Wrangler's in specific, BLD is the off-road software of the traction control.

So there is BLD the software (as we use it in a Wrangler), and BLD the function....as in a brake assisted (fake) electronic LSD. Both terms are used here, so it can get a bit confusing.

Then it stands to reason that the OP with his Eaton Trutrac LSDs activate much faster than the computer controlled BLD (since when observing those in Jeeps and other vehicles, there's a delay). So his BLD isn't doing much of anything, unless a situation arises where the Eaton (maybe at a crawl, or for whatever reason) doesn't do it's thing. (Guessing here)

Welding Rod 07-05-2013 08:42 PM

I stopped on a slight uphill grade with one front and rear tire on the asphalt, one front and rear on the dirt and gravel shoulder. Had the wife get out to watch the rear tires. Hammered it in first gear (auto).

In 2wd with ESP in normal mode both back tires spun initially, leaving a nice but short black mark on the asphalt (about 18") then it felt like a throttle cut was kicking in, along with some spin limiting on the tire on the gravel. There was some light digging in the gravel (alot for the first couple of feet) but it was clear that significant electronic intervention began taking place very quickly.

In 2wd with ESP off both back tires spun the whole time. The gravel tire left a minor trench and the asphalt tire left a continuous visible black line with a significantly darker spot of rubber that was maybe a foot long about every 5 feet.

n00g7 07-05-2013 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welding Rod (Post 3931134)
I stopped on a slight uphill grade with one front and rear tire on the asphalt, one front and rear on the dirt and gravel shoulder. Had the wife get out to watch the rear tires. Hammered it in first gear (auto).

In 2wd with ESP in normal mode both back tires spun initially, leaving a nice but short black mark on the asphalt (about 18") then it felt like a throttle cut was kicking in, along with some spin limiting on the tire on the gravel. There was some light digging in the gravel (alot for the first couple of feet) but it was clear that significant electronic intervention began taking place very quickly.

In 2wd with ESP off both back tires spun the whole time. The gravel tire left a minor trench and the asphalt tire left a continuous visible black line with a significantly darker spot of rubber that was maybe a foot long about every 5 feet.

So no throttle cut in the 2nd case? Sounds like they do have some form of eLSD action going on, it's just not very precise.

panthermark 07-05-2013 11:41 PM

I posted this in another thread a few weeks ago....but I never got around to checking as the wife went into labor.


Quote:

The owners manual is specific (even if consfusing) about this.

Normally, ESC and TCS are "on".

In 2WD, there are two modes avaiable.

ESC "on" (which includes TCS), and ESC "partial off" (which disables TCS and allows for wheel spin). You can't have wheel spin with BLD.


In 4L, there is only mode, ESC "off". In this mode, ESC is all the way off, the TCS is off except for the "limited slip" function (this would be BLD).


In 4H, there are three modes. ESC "on", ESC "partial off", and ESC "off". The work the same as above.


Being that all "city" driving will be done in 2WD. Your options are TCS "on" (normal) or TSC off (called ESC "partial off"....for wheel spin).

Again, whenver TCS is used, your ESC light will flash.

--------------
The problem with the Wrangler (for doing donuts) is that you either have BLD, Traction Control or ESC on. I don't think there is a mode that turns all of them off. However, I think that prior to 2011 (or 2012), it was easier to get the systems off (steering wheel dance). I'll have to check.


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