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jpdocdave 02-14-2009 07:09 AM

So much for checks and balances
 
Obama's stimulus bs passes the house (i belileve it was) with 0 republican votes. so what has our country done giving these people their absolute will over anything now. if something can pass with 0 republicans on board, that is scarry.:banghead:

skeeter 02-14-2009 07:20 AM

Bipartisanship democrat style means our way or no way, always has.
I've never understood how otherwise normal, seemingly intelligent people can support them.

jupiterboy 02-14-2009 08:29 AM

Saw cuts both ways. If Bush had ruled with just a bit of respect and tact…

The Republicans always govern as if they will always be in power and the rules and standards they trash will never come back on them.

jpdocdave 02-14-2009 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiterboy (Post 324621)
Saw cuts both ways. If Bush had ruled with just a bit of respect and tact…

The Republicans always govern as if they will always be in power and the rules and standards they trash will never come back on them.

rules and standards? :eek: lets talk about democrats and abortion and embrionic stem cells just to start.

jdhallissey 02-14-2009 10:04 AM

Abortion should be left up to the person. Stem cells well will be the cure to cancer and many other diseases we can not even shake a stick at.

classic case of abortion- girl gets raped can she have a abortion? You can not say only in certain cases you can do it. It has to be as a whole. Everybody or nobody. It would be like speeding it is ok here here and well here but HERE HERE and HERE your getting busted.

tiny terror 02-14-2009 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 324637)
rules and standards? :eek: lets talk about democrats and abortion and embrionic stem cells just to start.

Those are two subjects that you take moral issue with. Many people do not. Moral outrage doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong and your side is right.

I'd be more interested in arguments such as why ACORN is receiving more funds than the VA, or why the democrats who voted for the package didn't have time to read the thousand or so pages before they voted.

Or how about why Pelosi's trip to Europe was so important it pushed the vote before the package could be reviewed.

The list goes on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congressman Steven Buyer of Indiana
Of the numerous flaws in the large economic recovery spending bill, none is more shameful than the obvious disregard it holds for veterans, I find it appalling that this bill provides access to $2 billion for ACORN, $30 million for the salt-marsh harvest mouse in the San Francisco Bay area, and millions to purchase ‘green’ golf carts, instead of bettering the lives of veterans. I hope everyone will pause to consider that those who have put their lives on the line to defend our right to vote are a lower priority than an organization like ACORN, which has been accused of unlawful voter registration. I don’t know of a starker example of the Democrats’ misplaced priorities.


The bill was supposedly online, but I can't seem to find it. Would make for some interesting reading.

txjustin 02-14-2009 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdhallissey (Post 324649)
Abortion should be left up to the person. Stem cells well will be the cure to cancer and many other diseases we can not even shake a stick at.

classic case of abortion- girl gets raped can she have a abortion? You can not say only in certain cases you can do it. It has to be as a whole. Everybody or nobody. It would be like speeding it is ok here here and well here but HERE HERE and HERE your getting busted.

I absolutely agree!

jpdocdave 02-14-2009 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdhallissey (Post 324649)
Abortion should be left up to the person. Stem cells well will be the cure to cancer and many other diseases we can not even shake a stick at.

classic case of abortion- girl gets raped can she have a abortion? You can not say only in certain cases you can do it. It has to be as a whole. Everybody or nobody. It would be like speeding it is ok here here and well here but HERE HERE and HERE your getting busted.

yes these are moral issues. i believe the leaders of our country should have morals.

lets start with stem cells, how many advances haev we made by killing babies and using embrionic stem cells in all these years: answer is 0.
but we have made hundreds from adult stem cells and those from umbilical cords that do not require death.

abortion is all too rampid, everyone decides ahh screw it. who cares. just a problem with the direction of our country. but i have to stop to do some work.

tiny terror 02-14-2009 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 324705)
abortion is all too rampid, everyone decides ahh screw it. who cares.

You are blatantly wrong with that assertion. Sorry. But again, has nothing to do with the stimulus package.

jupiterboy 02-14-2009 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 324637)
rules and standards? :eek: lets talk about democrats and abortion and embrionic stem cells just to start.

I’m referencing Habeas Corpus specifically, FWIW. Maybe you can have a few surgeries and bring a couple frozen embryos to term.

jpdocdave 02-14-2009 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiny terror (Post 324720)
You are blatantly wrong with that assertion. Sorry. But again, has nothing to do with the stimulus package.

my thread has nothing to do with the stimulus. i was forced to make my point way to short cuz work is really retarded right now, my point on abortion is this:

our country figures sure lets get married, if it doesn't work, we'll just get divorced. no one is gonna argue the divorce rate with me. next, obama is making, or has made i'm not sure if he's done it yet, measures to basically give anyone anywhere anytime the ability to get an abortion. no parental contact for a minor, and they are forcing pharmacists to dispense drugs that are against their beliefs. secondly, that baby doesn't think, ahh, whatever my mom thinks about it is cool. that baby has a heartbeat, and a life. what about the rights of an unborn baby.

there are circumstances and much to talk about here. i am against this administrations approach which is abortions for all, which by the way he said was not his stance while campaigning. that is all.

to get back to topic, jupiter replied to my first post saying republicans trash rules and standards, please elaborate if you would.

edit: i do see why stimulus came up, my intent was the fact of how much power the democrats have now.

tiny terror 02-14-2009 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 324745)
my thread has nothing to do with the stimulus. i was forced to make my point way to short cuz work is really retarded right now, my point on abortion is this:

our country figures sure lets get married, if it doesn't work, we'll just get divorced. no one is gonna argue the divorce rate with me. next, obama is making, or has made i'm not sure if he's done it yet, measures to basically give anyone anywhere anytime the ability to get an abortion. no parental contact for a minor, and they are forcing pharmacists to dispense drugs that are against their beliefs. secondly, that baby doesn't think, ahh, whatever my mom thinks about it is cool. that baby has a heartbeat, and a life. what about the rights of an unborn baby.

there are circumstances and much to talk about here. i am against this administrations approach which is abortions for all, which by the way he said was not his stance while campaigning. that is all.

to get back to topic, jupiter replied to my first post saying republicans trash rules and standards, please elaborate if you would.

edit: i do see why stimulus came up, my intent was the fact of how much power the democrats have now.

You specifically posted about checks and balances and the stimulus package in your very first post. Maybe you should have stated you have an issue with government money going toward things which you personally think are morally wrong, but once again, morals are a choice that everyone has and not everyone holds the same set.

But blanket statements that women get abortions because they figure screw it is crap and you know it. I invite you to sit with a woman who's been violently raped and beaten half to death and tell her she has no right to her own body.

jupiterboy 02-14-2009 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiny terror (Post 324750)
I invite you to sit with a woman who's been violently raped and beaten half to death and tell her she has no right to her own body.

Against my better judgment, but then I don’t really have much anyway…

If abortion was legally murder, and the woman in the above scenario, and many other compelling scenarios, had no legal choice but to carry to term, what would we do with miscarriages? In an instance where a woman, for example, did not adhere to optimum nutritional standards, and the child suffered as a result, or if a mother took a prescription that harmed a her child before she realized she was pregnant, would we have a legal situation—grounds for manslaughter or other charges?

How would the insurance industry handle the legal snarl? How would we ensure that any expectant mother would carry full term and deliver without some liability?

I have a sister-in-law that has several special needs children, two that have exposed spines. She didn't go in for basic pre-natal care and didn't take folic acid which reduces this condition by a factor of 70%. She has mental issues for sure.

Do we really want the federal government dictating every aspect of our lives and do we want to make any woman of child bearing age property of the state in an attempt to make ourselves "morally" satisfied?

I would love to hear more discussion of the real-world implications if this decision was taken from the mother and placed with the government.

jpdocdave 02-14-2009 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiny terror (Post 324750)
You specifically posted about checks and balances and the stimulus package in your very first post. Maybe you should have stated you have an issue with government money going toward things which you personally think are morally wrong, but once again, morals are a choice that everyone has and not everyone holds the same set.

But blanket statements that women get abortions because they figure screw it is crap and you know it. I invite you to sit with a woman who's been violently raped and beaten half to death and tell her she has no right to her own body.

i think i covered some of that in my edit, i am the one who said the word stimulus. and yes, you worded some of it better than i. i am on the edge right now at work and stuck late cuz stupid driver's have screwed up parts twice in a row. so i'm a little grumpy. i never inferred, or meant to infer that blanket statement

and rape and insest is obviuosly grounds for debate, i have heard stories of women that have carried and raised babies from those instances with love and they dealt with what God gave them, and wouldn't have changed it. i don't know if i could. and thats why i said there's much to be talked about here, and i am against this administrations stance. doctor's push you to find out if your baby has issues while in the womb, such as down's syndrome, so they can offer you an abortion. some of the tests aren't even definitive.

i do not think there should be zero abortion, but, it is way to easy and acceptable to do it just cuz, same as divorce. this is very important to me personally, i was 20 when my wife (girlfriend at the time) got pregnant. and i told her to get an abortion and we went right up to the night before, and i thank God that he wouldn't leave me alone that night, and i couldn't go through with it. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF MY LIFE, and i thank God everyday when i look at my boy that i didn't do it. i'm ashamed to admit i was gonna do that, i was young and dumb, and all it took was a yellow pages and a phone call. i also have family that has gone through with it, and she carries that around every day, and regrets it. and by God's grace she has two small girls now.

jpdocdave 02-14-2009 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiterboy (Post 324765)
Against my better judgment, but then I don’t really have much anyway…

If abortion was legally murder, and the woman in the above scenario, and many other compelling scenarios, had no legal choice but to carry to term, what would we do with miscarriages? In an instance where a woman, for example, did not adhere to optimum nutritional standards, and the child suffered as a result, or if a mother took a prescription that harmed a her child before she realized she was pregnant, would we have a legal situation—grounds for manslaughter or other charges?

How would the insurance industry handle the legal snarl? How would we ensure that any expectant mother would carry full term and deliver without some liability?

I have a sister-in-law that has several special needs children, two that have exposed spines. She didn't go in for basic pre-natal care and didn't take folic acid which reduces this condition by a factor of 70%. She has mental issues for sure.

Do we really want the federal government dictating every aspect of our lives and do we want to make any woman of child bearing age property of the state in an attempt to make ourselves "morally" satisfied?

I would love to hear more discussion of the real-world implications if this decision was taken from the mother and placed with the government.

again, no one is talking about this kind of extreme, most of that post is for arguements sake i believe.

orange05tj 02-14-2009 12:42 PM

Im all for abortion. At least it's better then a prom night dumpster baby.

jupiterboy 02-14-2009 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 324775)
again, no one is talking about this kind of extreme, most of that post is for arguements sake i believe.

I think that people on the pro-choice side have real fears about these issues. If they were addressed and the pro-life platform would flesh out these issues they would have more people willing to listen.

tiny terror 02-14-2009 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiterboy (Post 324778)
I think that people on the pro-choice side have real fears about these issues. If they were addressed and the pro-life platform would flesh out these issues they would have more people willing to listen.

Pro-lifers also need to realize pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion.

jupiterboy 02-14-2009 12:55 PM

Well that is part of the propaganda, that women have some deep seated desire to kill their babies and only the state can stop the. Every gender has their share of straight up dunces, but most women I know would never approach something like this lightly. I also think if men were able to actually be put in the position they would sober up pretty fracking quickly.

Back to stimulus.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29179715

jpdocdave 02-14-2009 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiny terror (Post 324782)
Pro-lifers also need to realize pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion.

back to abortion:D

i'm sure there are pro lifers that think that way. but have you considered the extreme pro choice that really equal pro abortion. i've personally listened and read stories, of young women, some under 18, going to a clinic for info, being pushed to abort their baby. uneducated idiots behind that counter, telling young women, it is the best thing for you. you don't want to have a baby, it would be a terrible mistake, here have an abortion it will make things all better.

tiny terror 02-14-2009 01:48 PM

Naw. Morals are a choice and I can sight an equal number of instances on the other side so it's a waste of time on my part to discuss it any farther as I do not subscribe to organized religion or the moral majority in any way, shape, or form.

jpdocdave 02-14-2009 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 324824)
back to abortion:D

i'm sure there are pro lifers that think that way. but have you considered the extreme pro choice that really equal pro abortion. i've personally listened and read stories, of young women, some under 18, going to a clinic for info, being pushed to abort their baby. uneducated idiots behind that counter, telling young women, it is the best thing for you. you don't want to have a baby, it would be a terrible mistake, here have an abortion it will make things all better.

and to add to that point, the extreme movements of these moral issues to me is huge. same thing with the homesexual agenda. i do not hate homesexuals, i'm a christian and they are people to that are to be loved. but most people who call themselves christian know one thing. God is love. and thats it. God hates sin, and its a fact. the homesexual agenda is what i hate. they are forcing their agenda into public schools, televisoin, hollywood and so on. not just cuz they want to be who they are, they want more. these are the things that i have a problem with. trying to force immorality on our country as acceptable, and beyond that, attractive.

the great deceiver is constantly seaking whom he can devour, and i don't think anyone walked into geoffrey dohmer's apartment cuz he looked like he would eat them.

turdhurdler 02-14-2009 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange05tj (Post 324776)
Im all for abortion. At least it's better then a prom night dumpster baby.

YouTube - Family Guy - Musical Dumpster Baby

I know this is a touchy subject, mods can delete and I will understand

Jeff

jupiterboy 02-14-2009 02:38 PM

Another laugh.

YouTube - Bill Hicks-Christianity and Abortion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA_XM...eature=related

G54 02-14-2009 02:47 PM

What makes one person’s opinion right and another person’s opinion wrong? Why do most people agree that murder is wrong? What about assault? How about stealing? Adultery? Child pornography? Wouldn’t most agree that those things are wrong? But why? How do we determine what is right in cases that maybe don’t seem so clear cut? Say, capital punishment? Spanking children? Welfare? Bailouts? Drug laws? Land use? And apparently - abortion? Can morality be left out of lawmaking? If so, what is the basis for laws? If not, what is the basis for morality? Can necessity be a basis for laws? If so, then who determines what is necessary, and why should we believe them? If people’s opinions are so varied, what is the common ground that we share that determines right from wrong?

G54 02-14-2009 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiterboy (Post 324853)
Another laugh.

Who is so bold as one that mocks God?

jupiterboy 02-14-2009 02:57 PM

Almost all of what we call moral is subjective and cultural. If you had missed a previous post where I mentioned a US officer that had a special pistol for killing Indian infants because he felt it distasteful to use the gun he used on adults, well, that makes a strong point. That was only a few hundred years ago.

For any taboo, there is a human culture that practices that taboo as normal and acceptable in everyday life.

Consensus establishes norms. Civilization is built around indoctrination to establish morality.

There is a reason that Christian universities do not have anthropology programs.

jupiterboy 02-14-2009 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldgus (Post 324863)
Who is so bold as one that mocks God?

Although Mr. Hicks is pretty rough, I believe he is mocking the humans that project their own reality and desires as the will of a god.

The first lie of the church is to hold up a bible and call it the “word of god” when it is clearly understood that it is the words of men. How can you claim belief and tell such a fundamental untruth.

jpdocdave 02-14-2009 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiterboy (Post 324868)
Although Mr. Hicks is pretty rough, I believe he is mocking the humans that project their own reality and desires as the will of a god.

The first lie of the church is to hold up a bible and call it the “word of god” when it is clearly understood that it is the words of men. How can you claim belief and tell such a fundamental untruth.

to a christian the bible is not the word of man, every word was given and inspired by God. christians are built on faith, this is a huge dividing point for me in churches. you either believe the bible is of God or not, some churches wanna pick and choose what parts of the bible they like and what they don't. thats like taking parts of the constitution and not the whole thing.

so the bible is not the words of man. if you wanna find out if the bible is of God ask him, he'll tell you. and just to avoid any confusion there, or cause more. faith is faith cuz we believe in and worship a God we cannot see, or physically talk to or touch.

read the bible for a while and find out why its called "the living word" it speaks as authoratatively today as it did as a whole 2,000 years ago.

G54 02-14-2009 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiterboy (Post 324868)
The first lie of the church is to hold up a bible and call it the “word of god” when it is clearly understood that it is the words of men. How can you claim belief and tell such a fundamental untruth.

Your claim that it is merely the "words of men" is only "clearly understood" to unbelievers such as yourself. To the many believers such as myself, it is "clearly understood" that the Bible IS the Word of God.

You see my friend, our basis for Truth certainly differs.


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