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EMTJEEP 09-05-2013 10:58 PM

Ring and pinion masters enter here.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hopefully there is some good R&P masters here on this forum. I am reading up on my homework for my rebuild of my rear and have a question about some math related in the process.

I have been using the 30 page BillVista gear setup and I find it to be really helpful and he breaks everything down and even gives you a background on what each term means and what it does which it very helpful. But I am having some trouble grasping the Starting Shim stack calculations. I am able to understand it a little bit but it is the only thing that is bringing down my confidence on doing the rebuild. http://www.wranglerforum.com/images/...ing%20hair.gif


I would like a little more explaining about it. Here is the text I am at. If someone who has done this or knows any source to look up that info would be great!!

Starting shim stack calculations
If you are just changing the gears or if you are replacing the carrier and re-using the old gears, the quickest method is to simply start with new shims equal to the old shim stacks. You should measure each shim individually when calculating the old and assembling the new shim stacks, as measuring a stack of shims together can lead to inaccuracies. Note that any slingers or baffles (i.e. part numbers 2 and 6 in Figure 9) form part of the inner pinion shim stack. This means that if you are re-using gears that had a slinger or baffle (or both), but you aren't re-using the slinger and/or baffle, you must add the thickness of the deleted slinger/baffle to the starting inner pinion shim stack. The same is true in reverse. If you are using a slinger and/or baffle with a set of gears that didn't use them originally, you must delete the thickness of the newly added slinger/baffle from the starting inner pinion shim stack.
If both the old and new pinions have checking distance markings (aka depth codes), the starting point for the new inner pinion shim stack can be further refined as follows:
  • calculate the size of the old shim stack.
  • calculate the adjustment by subtracting the new pinion marking from the old, being careful to observe the signs. For example, if the old pinion marking is (+4) and the new pinion marking is (-2) the result will be (4)-(-2) = (4)+(2)=(6). If the old number was (0) and the new number (+2), the result would be (0)-(2)=(-2).
  • If the adjustment figure is negative, subtract that many thousandths of an inch from the shim stack and if the adjustment number is positive, add that that many thousandths of an inch to the shim stack.
  • Example: old shim stack = 0.035 (35 thou), old pinion marking is (-2), new pinion marking is (+1). Adjustment =(-2)-(1)=(-3). New shim stack will be (35)-(3)=32 thou.
Alternatively, you can use the following chart to calculate a new inner pinion shim stack


Thanks for the help!!!

Here is the chart that goes with the text.

YjKalamity 09-06-2013 12:41 AM

The most important thing to do is to take account of everything you have when you take it all apart. I always put slingers and baffles back in so you don't have to do all of that silly math it's talking about. Whenever I do gears I start off with the exact same shim stacks. This last set that I did had .002 shims for the pinion depth so I put that same amount on the new pinion. I think my carrier shims were 26 and 28, so I put them back in the same way. I generally like to get my side to side adjusted first and then my pinion depth. Pirate 4x4 has a really good guide and I would recommend checking it out. Just google "setting up gears" and it should be the first one.

EMTJEEP 09-06-2013 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YjKalamity (Post 4334017)
The most important thing to do is to take account of everything you have when you take it all apart. I always put slingers and baffles back in so you don't have to do all of that silly math it's talking about. Whenever I do gears I start off with the exact same shim stacks. This last set that I did had .002 shims for the pinion depth so I put that same amount on the new pinion. I think my carrier shims were 26 and 28, so I put them back in the same way. I generally like to get my side to side adjusted first and then my pinion depth. Pirate 4x4 has a really good guide and I would recommend checking it out. Just google "setting up gears" and it should be the first one.


I heard of people doing that too and just didn't know if it was acceptable and that it wouldn't screw anything up.

And the article I have been reading is BillVista's which is from Pirate 4x4 that you are referring to about google setting up gears.

dale 3 09-06-2013 08:49 AM

Just had my front done by a pro.Couple things to think about it take practice to get it right.The price for gears,carrier,bearings then towing ain't worth,YA I CAN DO IT.How much$$ are you saving? Unless your hard core hammering over rocks,slipping spinning wheels often maybe good to learn your own fixing cause it will break again on 30's and 35's.Just my opinion here.:D

YjKalamity 09-06-2013 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMTJEEP (Post 4334385)

I heard of people doing that too and just didn't know if it was acceptable and that it wouldn't screw anything up.

And the article I have been reading is BillVista's which is from Pirate 4x4 that you are referring to about google setting up gears.

The guy who taught me how to set up gears has built over 60 rear ends and neither of us have had an issue with that method. As long as everything is in good shape there should be no issues.

EMTJEEP 09-06-2013 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dale 3 (Post 4340041)
Just had my front done by a pro.Couple things to think about it take practice to get it right.The price for gears,carrier,bearings then towing ain't worth,YA I CAN DO IT.How much$$ are you saving? Unless your hard core hammering over rocks,slipping spinning wheels often maybe good to learn your own fixing cause it will break again on 30's and 35's.Just my opinion here.:D

I want to learn how to do them because for one I use to work at a off-road shop and I miss doing that work and also I want to save money. I can get gears and the master install kit/lube locker for about $350 and they are not crappy brands. Everywhere that does rears want about $900 for the whole process and price includes gears. So I would be saving around $600 which is good to me.

EMTJEEP 09-06-2013 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YjKalamity (Post 4341929)
The guy who taught me how to set up gears has built over 60 rear ends and neither of us have had an issue with that method. As long as everything is in good shape there should be no issues.

I know in the BillVista arctile is states another way to do it and it said to use your old setup as a starting point and then just add or subtract from there. So maybe this math thing is just getting in my way and I can go around all this.

I may send you a PM once I get this rolling if I got any problems along the way if that is cool to you.

fltopp1 09-06-2013 11:46 AM

I have a gearing question for the pro's...................I have a 2002 TJ with 33's x 12.5 and the diffs are a 30 up front with the typical 35 in the rear. I dont do a ton of wheeling but am paranoid to do anything offroad because its still the stock gearing. Would you guys suggest going to a 4.56? or maybe 4.88??? what is the best to run???

YjKalamity 09-06-2013 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMTJEEP (Post 4344137)

I know in the BillVista arctile is states another way to do it and it said to use your old setup as a starting point and then just add or subtract from there. So maybe this math thing is just getting in my way and I can go around all this.

I may send you a PM once I get this rolling if I got any problems along the way if that is cool to you.

That's basically how I do mine. No reason for any of the math. There are different patterns that are acceptable, but I'll never use anything in my rig that's less than perfect ie a dead center pattern...which can be a pain. The ford 8.8 that I'm doing right now has been a pita.

Feel free to message me whenever. As long as I'm not in the shop at the time I usually get back to people very quickly.

YjKalamity 09-06-2013 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fltopp1 (Post 4344169)
I have a gearing question for the pro's...................I have a 2002 TJ with 33's x 12.5 and the diffs are a 30 up front with the typical 35 in the rear. I dont do a ton of wheeling but am paranoid to do anything offroad because its still the stock gearing. Would you guys suggest going to a 4.56? or maybe 4.88??? what is the best to run???

What transmission do you have? If its the 5 speed manual 4.56s would be ideal, but I wouldn't bother throwing money into the 35 unless you plan on staying at 33s. There's also no reason to be paranoid to wheel with stock gears, it's the rear axle that you should be worried about, but even then as long as you don't hop it and get throttle happy it should be fine.

WOKNROX 09-06-2013 05:18 PM

Am I the only one who still uses a case stretcher...?
I like um tight..

dale 3 09-06-2013 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMTJEEP (Post 4344057)
I want to learn how to do them because for one I use to work at a off-road shop and I miss doing that work and also I want to save money. I can get gears and the master install kit/lube locker for about $350 and they are not crappy brands. Everywhere that does rears want about $900 for the whole process and price includes gears. So I would be saving around $600 which is good to me.

Nothing wrong with learning.But you need a good teacher.Just thinking the first set you mess up will cost you 700 (not counting your time) to get running again.That pressing the pinion bearing of and on to shim properly is tricky to not screw the cage up,then the crush sleeve is a throwaway each time.Gonna need a stockpile of shims,dial indicator,inch pound torque wrench,what else,a .hit load of PATIENTS! Cost me 1200 all spicer gears including spiders,bearings and oversized carrier. Happy trails!

EMTJEEP 09-06-2013 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dale 3 (Post 4355377)
Nothing wrong with learning.But you need a good teacher.Just thinking the first set you mess up will cost you 700 (not counting your time) to get running again.That pressing the pinion bearing of and on to shim properly is tricky to not screw the cage up,then the crush sleeve is a throwaway each time.Gonna need a stockpile of shims,dial indicator,inch pound torque wrench,what else,a .hit load of PATIENTS! Cost me 1200 all spicer gears including spiders,bearings and oversized carrier. Happy trails!


My friend is the store manager for a 4wheel parts by me and I know all the mechanics there and have access to all the their tools. Also have a couple other connects with other shops that will lend me their tools and their knowledge of doing the gear setup. So I am not that worried about the tools as much just the math part.

But I understand where you are coming from and it makes sense.

Just hoping that my ARB isn't shot either.

dale 3 09-07-2013 04:16 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by EMTJEEP (Post 4359041)
My friend is the store manager for a 4wheel parts by me and I know all the mechanics there and have access to all the their tools. Also have a couple other connects with other shops that will lend me their tools and their knowledge of doing the gear setup. So I am not that worried about the tools as much just the math part.

But I understand where you are coming from and it makes sense.

Just hoping that my ARB isn't shot either.

ARB?
ARB - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What is that? Sounds like your good to go.GREAT! This is my carrier that the original owner thought he'd try to do gears? MORON grinded the carrier on both sides so he could just SLID the bearing on.Don't know how many miles he put on but i put maybe 4k on it before the noise started.

EMTJEEP 09-07-2013 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dale 3 (Post 4363585)
ARB?
ARB - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What is that? Sounds like your good to go.GREAT! This is my carrier that the original owner thought he'd try to do gears? MORON grinded the carrier on both sides so he could just SLID the bearing on.Don't know how many miles he put on but i put maybe 4k on it before the noise started.

I run an ARB locker in the rear so I don't have a carrier like the one you posted. It is an older model locker so if it is broken it will be hard to find the right parts easily and new lockers cost about 1k for each.

This is how my setup will look like once I get it out of the housing.
http://www.quadratec.com/Assets/Know...age/photo4.jpg

WOKNROX 09-07-2013 01:55 PM

[QUOTE=dale 3;4355377]Nothing wrong with learning.But you need a good teacher.That pressing the pinion bearing of and on to shim properly is tricky to not screw the cage up,then the crush sleeve is a throwaway each time.

I myself use a crush sleeve eliminater whenever possible.
When shimming for pinion depth you can buy pinion bearings with a slightly larger bore ( from places like Rand's R&R) for easy removal ....this way you don't have to keep pressing on and pulling off the pinion bearing.
Once you find your depth you press on the new bearing.

WOKNROX 09-07-2013 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMTJEEP (Post 4370641)
I run an ARB locker in the rear so I don't have a carrier like the one you posted. It is an older model locker so if it is broken it will be hard to find the right parts easily and new lockers cost about 1k for each.

This is how my setup will look like once I get it out of the housing.
http://www.quadratec.com/Assets/Know...age/photo4.jpg

You probably already know this but....you'll need to notch the spacer shim to clearance the air tube on the ARB....at least on the newer style you do....and they need to be in there really tight so they don't spin and break the air tube (copper line) that's where a case stretcher come in handy...
Just something to think about.


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