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-   -   Spark Plug HELL (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/spark-plug-hell-29072.html)

Willbanks 04-12-2009 01:48 PM

Spark Plug HELL
 
I think I know what the problem but I'm in denial.

I replaced the spark plugs yesterday, broke the first one lose and was shocked at what i seen. The spark plug tip was missing a piece of ceramic, in fact every damn one of them was missing a piece of ceramic. I took a vacuum to the holes to see if i could suck anything out and nothing came up. I replaced the plugs and wires now the jeep runs like shit. I need help narrowing it down and dealing with the potentially bad news. I also hear some "sucking" noise coming from the engine, when i turn the engine off it sounds like it takes a little breath before shutting off.

#1 I didn't gap the plugs , i know this can cause some rough running but i didn't/don't think it could be this bad
#2 I used sea foam in the gas tank a few days before

or

#3 The ceramic that was left behind just jacked my heads up


Any help would be appreciated, i'm lost trying to figure this out right now

97' sport 4.0

jpdocdave 04-12-2009 03:37 PM

i doubt its that bad. a gap thats off can cause all your probs, ask moa.

firing order could be off, and make sure you used champion regular spark plugs that are recomended, no other junk or platinum or ngk bosch and so on.

Willbanks 04-12-2009 04:39 PM

I did .35 gap on the plugs and it still runs sluggish. The more gas i give it the more it stutters. Used sea foam in the TB and smoked it off, no results.

slf41002 04-12-2009 05:15 PM

Well the ceramic more than likely blew right out the exhaust as soon as the valve opened as far as why it shattered all 6 plugs is what I would be looking for.What was it doing before the sea foam and did you suck the sea foam straight into the intake???Was the sea foam outside in the cold at the time of use???If it was cold and it was normal before the treatment then continue on to rechecking and setting your gap at around 40 and check as mentioned that you have the wires on in the right firing order.

Willbanks 04-12-2009 05:29 PM

Checked firing order, all is good

Willbanks 04-12-2009 06:06 PM

just got a check engine light, code 12, 43 and 55

43 = Peak primary circuit current not achieved with maximum dwell time. Misfire detected in one or more cylinders 1 thru 6. (4 and 6 cyls.)

I have no eff'n clue as to what the hell i broke but it looks like im going to spend the rest of my night researching this.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

slf41002 04-12-2009 09:00 PM

What plugs did you put in?Was it a good brand of wires,did you maybe drop a plug during install??? Lots of things could lead to a problem after a tune up but you will just have to pull everything and double check in all!!!

Willbanks 04-12-2009 09:14 PM

I used autolite wires and plugs, i used the plugs i originaly bought for my camaro but instead used on the jeep, i am going to go buy all new plugs and wires and try again.

BARKDOG67 04-12-2009 09:30 PM

Do you happen to know what a boriscope is. I use them alot it would be good to find one or rent one to check the cylinders out on the inside or maybe a compression tester to see if you have a hole in any of your pistons that ceramic had to go somewhere.

parrot head 04-12-2009 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willbanks (Post 354095)
I used autolite wires and plugs

Autolite makes junk plugs. I'm sure their wires aren't any better.
Some of my buddies who are mechanics have a saying about Autolite; "Autolite (augh to light) but they don't!"

Willbanks 04-12-2009 11:19 PM

Just replaced wires with another brand, still having problem. I reset the engine code and letting it run idle right now to see if it comes back on but it still stutters at low rpms and when giving alot of gas.

rrich 04-12-2009 11:51 PM

What usually breaks the ceramic is knock - ping. The plugs you had in it were too hot.
Use plain old Champions - use what the underhood label calls out or what the parts house computer says - except don't go by what Autochina says - their computer is wrong!

Avoid the gimmick plugs, splits, plats or any and all of the
trick plugs.
Gap them at .035.

Obviously you still have junk in the cylinders - deposits etc. When you start it, run it at about 1500 RPM for a few minutes, don't jazz it, hold it steady.
Then drive it.

Everything should clear up with a little TLC.

And -- check your timing - make sure it's at spec.

Every once in a while plugs get mislabeled - go to a different parts house this time.





p

Willbanks 04-13-2009 01:04 AM

ok ill try new plugs tomorrow, regular replacement plugs instead of the plats. Im wondering if it could also be from the sea foam i put in the gas tank a few days ago, like its just now hitting the fuel line. Its just kind of odd that as soon as i replace the plugs this starts to happen. It was running better with 6 broken spark plugs than it is now.

jpdocdave 04-13-2009 08:11 AM

i don't know about seafoam in the gas tank. but definately use only regular champion plugs.

also did you replace the cap and rotor? don't skip those.

rrich 04-13-2009 08:18 AM

So many of the plug mfgr's are trying to cut down on the vast numbers of plug variations. Streamlining inventories makes sense. Plus the advent of all the new "trick plugs" that they are all trying - because they have a higher profit aren't helping.
They are trying to get "one size fits all" - ask your wife how clothes like that fit her. No matter what anyone says, a plug that's designed for a Yugo won't work right in your Jeep!

Look at a parts BOOK - at Champion or AC plugs, notice the huge amount of plugs. Now look at the Bosch BOOK - very few numbers to cover the same vehicles? How do you think they can do that when others can't?

When a head is designed the engineer designs it around a particular plug - he's not just thinking of reach, but has to consider fuel types, heat range at ALL speeds and loads, indexing when torqued to spec, - all kinds of things. He selects the plug designs around it.

Substituting something else, especially a "trick" plug is rarely even close to what the designer wanted.

Using the wrong plugs can easily and quickly destroy an engine. Will Bosch or anyone get you a new engine because YOU used plugs not recommended by Jeep?

Run it awhile with the correct stock plugs - then do a compression check. Hopefully you are lucky.

The SeaFoam in the tank shouldn't make any difference, unless you used gallons of it. I believe it's an alcohol based product, it might lower octane very slightly, but not enough to notice.

Jerry Bransford 04-13-2009 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parrot head (Post 354134)
Autolite makes junk plugs. I'm sure their wires aren't any better.

Sounds like Ford vs. Chevy, not many including me would agree with your Autolite claim. I've been using Autolite plugs for many (maybe even long than you have been alive) years with great success and have been recommending them for years on many Jeep forums as well with literally everyone who reported back saying the same thing... their quality is literally as good as any brand of plug out there.

slf41002 04-13-2009 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 354302)
Sounds like Ford vs. Chevy, not many including me would agree with your Autolite claim. I've been using Autolite plugs for many (maybe even long than you have been alive) years with great success and have been recommending them for years on many Jeep forums as well with literally everyone who reported back saying the same thing... their quality is literally as good as any brand of plug out there.

X2 I have used and recommended Autolite quit often.Now if he had said Bosch I would have had to have agreed with him;)


Quote:

Originally Posted by rrich (Post 354278)
So many of the plug mfgr's are trying to cut down on the vast numbers of plug variations. Streamlining inventories makes sense. Plus the advent of all the new "trick plugs" that they are all trying - because they have a higher profit aren't helping.
They are trying to get "one size fits all" - ask your wife how clothes like that fit her. No matter what anyone says, a plug that's designed for a Yugo won't work right in your Jeep!

Look at a parts BOOK - at Champion or AC plugs, notice the huge amount of plugs. Now look at the Bosch BOOK - very few numbers to cover the same vehicles? How do you think they can do that when others can't?

When a head is designed the engineer designs it around a particular plug - he's not just thinking of reach, but has to consider fuel types, heat range at ALL speeds and loads, indexing when torqued to spec, - all kinds of things. He selects the plug designs around it.

Substituting something else, especially a "trick" plug is rarely even close to what the designer wanted.

Using the wrong plugs can easily and quickly destroy an engine. Will Bosch or anyone get you a new engine because YOU used plugs not recommended by Jeep?

Run it awhile with the correct stock plugs - then do a compression check. Hopefully you are lucky.

The SeaFoam in the tank shouldn't make any difference, unless you used gallons of it. I believe it's an alcohol based product, it might lower octane very slightly, but not enough to notice.

I think the sea foam is a mineral oil base but I have seen it foul out an old set of plugs but not distroy them.

jpdocdave 04-13-2009 10:50 AM

i'm not a big fan of autolite, but they are perfectly fine in many applications, such as ford. i can't prove it, but i thought motorcraft and autolite are from the same manufacturer. but i've seen autolite cause many problems in imports.

autolite is probably ok in jeep, but champion is the same price, and we all know that is the way to go in a jeep before the direct ignition.

rrich 04-13-2009 11:00 AM

Autolites another good one - I wouldn't hesitate to use them either. He He - my only gripe about them is they seem to be a little thinner than the others - seems like I'm always breaking them putting them in and out. But that's just me.

One time I was having difficulty with plugs - seemed like they all were way too cold and fouling out or too hot and burning up. I don't remember the brand, probably AC's or Champs because I stocked them. I compared some I had to some I took out of a vehicle - same number but very different.
I found out later quite a bit of my cabinet stock was mislabeled at the factory, plugs and boxes had the wrong numbers on them. Since we weren't sure which were right and which were wrong, the Mfgr took them all back and gave me new ones.

I ended up sending my mechanic to my customer's homes to swap in the new ones - an "in home recall!"

That's why I suggested getting the plugs from a different parts house - just in case.

Sea Foam - even oil based it shouldn't cause trouble in the small quantity - unless it cleaned out a ton of junk in the tank and lines - still a good thing.

We'll see when he changes to the correct "stock" plugs if they fouled or burned up. Please be sure to let us know.

Remember - Jeep is American - Bosch, NGK etc isn't.

za_mhz 04-13-2009 12:55 PM

sorry guys i gotta ask. What is this seafoam you all speak of?

nutsandboldts05 04-13-2009 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by za_mhz (Post 354441)
sorry guys i gotta ask. What is this seafoam you all speak of?

Sea Foam

It works wonders on all types of applications. It can be bought at most local auto parts stores.

Willbanks 04-14-2009 12:02 AM

Didn't have time to throw different plugs in, was at the range all day watching people attempt to qualify. I'll definitely post the results as soon as I get around to replacing them tomorrow.

DUCKIT 04-14-2009 12:16 AM

[QUOTE=Jerry Bransford;354302]Sounds like Ford vs. Chevy, not many including me would agree with your Autolite claim. I've been using Autolite plugs for many (maybe even long than you have been alive) years with great success and have been recommending them for years on many Jeep forums as well with literally everyone who reported back saying the same thing... their quality is literally as good as any brand of plug out there.[/QUOTE
I'm with Jerry...............I have been Running Autolite AP985 gap. at .035 without any problem:D

parrot head 04-14-2009 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 354302)
Sounds like Ford vs. Chevy, not many including me would agree with your Autolite claim. I've been using Autolite plugs for many (maybe even long than you have been alive) years with great success and have been recommending them for years on many Jeep forums as well with literally everyone who reported back saying the same thing... their quality is literally as good as any brand of plug out there.

I have only had spark plug issues twice in my life. Both times they were fairly new plugs. Both times the whole end of the plug burned away, I mean electrode insulator all gone so that it looked like someone melted the end with a cutting torch. Two different vehicles, both times they were Autolite plugs. Both times I replaced them with another brand and had no further issues with either vehicle. I will NEVER use Autolite products again.
Just my own experience.:blunt:

Willbanks 04-15-2009 12:08 AM

Ok i replaced the spark plugs with champion coppers. And i have to say even though I'm still having the problem it runs on the better end of bad. I'm still having code 43 and im still having power/stutter problems.

So far:

Replaced wires
Replaced plugs x2
Replaced Distributor Cap/Rotor
Checked firing order
Ran Seafoam through TB and Gas tank

Any suggestions from here?

rrich 04-15-2009 12:52 AM

The cylinders probably have deposits left in them from before. Run it awhile, see if it clears up - or gets worse. If it starts the "thump thump" from a dead cylinder, pull that plug and have a look. If the plug looks good, do a compression check on that cylinder.
You might have to clean the plug a couple of times till the deposits are gone.

To decide which cylinder is not firing properly, simply pull each plug wire out of the cap - if it was working, it'll miss and slow down. If it's not firing properly, it won't make any change. Preferably use insulated pliers, but once you pull the wire out, you are holding onto a dead wire - the shocking voltage is in the cap tower.

Hopefully the deposits in it will burn off, rather than internal engine damage.

The Sea Foam in it shouldn't make any difference, but don't add anything else. If there's much room in the tank, add some fresh gas.

Carefully watch engine temp and oil pressure too.

parrot head 04-15-2009 06:46 AM

How about putting the old wires back on? The problem started when you did the tune up right? If it runs the same with the old wires then at least you've eliminated one variable. I would also try the old cap and rotor if the old set of wires doesn't change anything.

MOz 04-15-2009 06:48 AM

Have you checked your primary coil?

parrot head 04-15-2009 06:52 AM

I just re read your original post. Did you find the sucking noise? You may have disconnected or damaged a vacuum line while working on the tune up.

nutsandboldts05 04-15-2009 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parrot head (Post 355536)
I just re read your original post. Did you find the sucking noise? You may have disconnected or damaged a vacuum line while working on the tune up.

Good catch, I didn't notice that at first until you posted.

Definitely check for the "sucking" noise.


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