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-   -   Oil consumption. (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/oil-consumption-30000.html)

joemd60 05-02-2009 03:46 PM

Oil consumption.
 
Hello everyone, my jeep has about 40,000 miles. It does not burn nor leak oil. My question, I change the oil every 3k or 3 months whichever comes first. I usually have to add oil at about 1700 miles. So essentially a quart between changes. I am told that is normal, is it? Thanks:)

jpdocdave 05-02-2009 04:34 PM

i would not say normal, but is it terrible...na.

my current 4.0 is 13 yrs old, has 127k and it uses zero oil, never have to add, and i check every few weeks.

w/ only 40k yours shouldn't use any oil either. i'd make sure you don't have a leak anywhere, just cuz you don't see it on the ground, doesn't mean its not leaking.

otherwise it is burning it, thats the only two ways its gonna leave, outside the engine, or exiting by gowing through the cumbustion chamber.

you are filling it w/ 6 qts if its a 4.0 right?

joemd60 05-02-2009 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 365542)
i would not say normal, but is it terrible...na.

my current 4.0 is 13 yrs old, has 127k and it uses zero oil, never have to add, and i check every few weeks.

w/ only 40k yours shouldn't use any oil either. i'd make sure you don't have a leak anywhere, just cuz you don't see it on the ground, doesn't mean its not leaking.

otherwise it is burning it, thats the only two ways its gonna leave, outside the engine, or exiting by gowing through the cumbustion chamber.

you are filling it w/ 6 qts if its a 4.0 right?

Thanks jp, yes I am filling it and I agree I should not be having to add oil. I do not see drops on the ground and I look for blue smoke which I do not see. I have also kept an eye on the oil pressure and it is fine. I will have to keep an eye out because it is hard to chase something you cannot see.

Jerry Bransford 05-02-2009 05:42 PM

My '97 TJ's 4.0L engine has 180,000 miles on it and I don't have to add any oil between my 5,000 mile interval oil changes. I'd definitely say that needing a quart every 1700 miles is way excessive and no, it's definitely not even close to being normal.

By the way, I also believe changing the oil regularly every 3000 miles is excessive too. That only started becoming popular when all the Jiffylube-type quick oil change joints started pushing it to pad their bottom line.

joemd60 05-02-2009 05:47 PM

So any suggestions on what my options are to find where it is going. Or is my motor prematurely on it's way out?

Jerry Bransford 05-02-2009 05:52 PM

A compression check and/or leak-down test would probably give you a good idea what the problem is. Nearly any good mechanic can do that. It could be caused by a plugged positive crankcase ventilation system. Perhaps the valve seals are excessively worn. Maybe the valve guides are excessively worn. It’s also possible that the piston rings are seized as a result of excessive sludge and varnish deposits.

jpdocdave 05-02-2009 05:52 PM

oh yeah, check your air filter, make sure its not going there:D

and jerry...i hate the quick lubes with a passion, especially as an auto technician.

but the explanation i've received from the business isn't the jiffy lubes pushed 3k changes, but that was the factory recomendation back then.

not untill those idiot quick lubes cut into the dealer's return service business, then the manufacturer came out with longer intervals to cut the jiffy lube business in half. and to use as a selling point for new vehicles, less maintenance.

the second the manfucturer said 5k and 6k oil changes, quick lube business went in half, think about it.

this is what is explained to me from people that own/have owned quick lubes, and shop owners that have been in business since the 70's and 80's.

also lexus and other manufacturers had to redetermine their interval, lexus ended up warrantying a ton of motors because the oil wasn't changed enough by the factory schedule, and they were all burning oil and smoking.

its the only thing you can do for the inside of your motor. i've taken apart way too many sludged up nasty motors, i change mine at 3k.

Jerry Bransford 05-02-2009 06:14 PM

Oil change intervals were able to be increased from better engine manufacturing techniques that improved engine tolerances and reliability. Plus better oils with neutralizers and new additives that helped reduce the toll from naturally occurring combustion byproducts, acids, etc.. That's why the intervals went up, not because the Jiffylubes of the world were taking business away from the dealerships. At least that's my personal opinion that I formed after being curious about it enough to read whatever I could find on the subject some years back. :)

jpdocdave 05-02-2009 08:17 PM

to hijack the thread i think its a load of bs what the manufacturers are saying on their maintenance. and i'm not talking about oil changes now at all.

look through the maintenance schedule on a newer vehicle, you will see nothing.

maybe a trans service at 100k:eek: will they warranty the trans that long, nope....and don't even start with chrysler's power train crap.

almost all of the newer vehicles have zero maintenance scheduled, and its a load of crap, to make it sound like they're low maintenance.

coolant, diffs, t cases, transmissions, brake fluid, power steering fluid, fuel filters (which are becoming non serviceable:rolleyes:) suspension parts aren't greasable so they just go bad eventually and so on. you won't find maintenance on these items.

joemd60 05-02-2009 10:36 PM

When I bought this jeep it only had 25k on it. I have changed the oil every 3k and even less. What puzzles me is now at 36k which is when it first started she is using oil. I take very good care of my jeep. Which means there is something else going on here. What I do know is the issue is only going to get worse as the mileage increases. I will pursue this Monday with my Mechanic and see what he can do to find this problem. Thank you guys for the advice.

joemd60 05-02-2009 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 365594)
A compression check and/or leak-down test would probably give you a good idea what the problem is. Nearly any good mechanic can do that. It could be caused by a plugged positive crankcase ventilation system. Perhaps the valve seals are excessively worn. Maybe the valve guides are excessively worn. It’s also possible that the piston rings are seized as a result of excessive sludge and varnish deposits.

Jerry if the crankcase ventilation system were plugged. Or if
Piston rings were seized, wouldn't my jeep run terribly? My jeep runs great with no noticeable loss of power, and I always thought if the valve seals were worn you would see puffs of blue smoke which I do not. On another note when I am topless there is never a scent of oil burning, nor is there any unusual odors.

jpdocdave 05-02-2009 11:15 PM

your jeep could still run fine, and not blow blue smoke, and still be burning oil, and there's many fine running 4.0 w/ an air box full of oil, very common. it happens. but a quart at 1700 miles you'd think you'd see some sign. check your air filter for oil, have it checked for leaks, maybe there's a combination of small leak and small consumption. the valve cover can leak from the top down and sometimes you'll never see the drip.

if the previous owner was lax on the oil changes, rings or guides could be worn.

the piston has more than one ring obviously, the oil control ring can be cracked or worn, and it would run fine forever. could have clogged oil passages in the head that don't let oil go back down, keeping the oil on top and seeping in the guides. there's tons of possibilites.

now, there are products that can reduce, and even limit oil consumption for worn engines, and yours being so low mileage would probably give results. i've had some hi mileage jeep engines that used about the oil you're talking, even a hair more. i used lucas w/ the oil changes, and after a few oil changes the oil consumption was gone, and i didn't have to keep using the lucas, i reduced to every other oil change adding lucas, and then to once or twice a year. and like i said, i fixed some oil leaks, and used that additive, and bam, no consumption in 3k.

i'd also consider hi mileage oil, i like valvoline max life. and also consider oil flush as well.

rrich 05-03-2009 03:37 AM

Oil change intervals -

When was the last time you heard of an engine that was ruined because the oil was changed too frequently?

joemd60 05-03-2009 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 365824)
your jeep could still run fine, and not blow blue smoke, and still be burning oil, and there's many fine running 4.0 w/ an air box full of oil, very common. it happens. but a quart at 1700 miles you'd think you'd see some sign. check your air filter for oil, have it checked for leaks, maybe there's a combination of small leak and small consumption. the valve cover can leak from the top down and sometimes you'll never see the drip.

if the previous owner was lax on the oil changes, rings or guides could be worn.

the piston has more than one ring obviously, the oil control ring can be cracked or worn, and it would run fine forever. could have clogged oil passages in the head that don't let oil go back down, keeping the oil on top and seeping in the guides. there's tons of possibilites.

now, there are products that can reduce, and even limit oil consumption for worn engines, and yours being so low mileage would probably give results. i've had some hi mileage jeep engines that used about the oil you're talking, even a hair more. i used lucas w/ the oil changes, and after a few oil changes the oil consumption was gone, and i didn't have to keep using the lucas, i reduced to every other oil change adding lucas, and then to once or twice a year. and like i said, i fixed some oil leaks, and used that additive, and bam, no consumption in 3k.

i'd also consider hi mileage oil, i like valvoline max life. and also consider oil flush as well.

Thanks again jp, i followed your and Jerry's advice. I gave my jeep another hard look this morning. The air cleaner is dry as a bone, and there are no visible signs of leaks anywhere. Which leaves the obvious that she is burning it but it is subtle. I am bringing it in on my vacation in a couple of weeks for another oil change. Hopefully he can do some tests like Jerry mentioned and it may find something. As for the lucas I may give that some thought as well.

jpdocdave 05-03-2009 08:18 AM

i would, honestly you've almost determined that its consuming it. if you have a mechanic test it, thats what he will say. i'd just ask him to take a good look, and explain the deal, if he sees nothing what difference does it make. the only real fix is overhaul. you can do a bunch of tests and see if you can get away with rebuilding just the top, but whats the point. if its using oil, the engine got worn, most likely from over due oil changes, might as well replace/rebuild the whole thing.

i'd definately do engine flush, max life oil and lucas before overhauling. i'd be more willing to bet you could solve the problem with this. i was shocked when i did it myself. i figured i'd have to keep using the stuff all the time, but its like it reconditioned the motor, w/ frequent maintenance and the lucas, the engine came back, and like i said i was able to gradually ween off of it while consumption stopped.

Wrestling Wrangler 05-03-2009 09:45 AM

Here's a silly question. How do you drive? maxing out RPM's and MPH?

Jerry Bransford 05-03-2009 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrich (Post 365853)
Oil change intervals -

When was the last time you heard of an engine that was ruined because the oil was changed too frequently?

Did anyone here say that? I don't think so. :wavey:

joemd60 05-03-2009 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 365876)
i would, honestly you've almost determined that its consuming it. if you have a mechanic test it, thats what he will say. i'd just ask him to take a good look, and explain the deal, if he sees nothing what difference does it make. the only real fix is overhaul. you can do a bunch of tests and see if you can get away with rebuilding just the top, but whats the point. if its using oil, the engine got worn, most likely from over due oil changes, might as well replace/rebuild the whole thing.

i'd definately do engine flush, max life oil and lucas before overhauling. i'd be more willing to bet you could solve the problem with this. i was shocked when i did it myself. i figured i'd have to keep using the stuff all the time, but its like it reconditioned the motor, w/ frequent maintenance and the lucas, the engine came back, and like i said i was able to gradually ween off of it while consumption stopped.

I think what I will do after I discuss it with my Mechanic is live with it. If an engine flush or a bunch of tests runs me into a huge expense than it is not worth it. What happens if the engine flush does not work? Although it does sound like a good idea. If the problem worsens than I will cross that bridge when it I get there. I talked to my StepDad before I posted here and claims there is nothing to worry about. His theory is if I do not see smoke or leaks than keep an eye on it and just drive it. I am still going to follow all of your advice and try to find the source.

joemd60 05-03-2009 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrestling Wrangler (Post 365900)
Here's a silly question. How do you drive? maxing out RPM's and MPH?

No different than I did when I bought it. My foot is not jammed down to the floor all the time.
This problem is recent, and I am also comparing this to my 95 Toyota pickup. It was a 4 cyl. 4wd with 155k when I sold it. And a lot of my driving was hard and that old truck was bullet proof, never burnt a drop of oil.

jpdocdave 05-03-2009 12:18 PM

oil flush is dirt cheap, just buy the chemical at the parts store, and run it in the oil for 5 mins, then change the oil. its worth it.

joemd60 05-03-2009 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 365987)
oil flush is dirt cheap, just buy the chemical at the parts store, and run it in the oil for 5 mins, then change the oil. its worth it.

Great thanks jp, I will keep that in mind.:)

Wrestling Wrangler 05-03-2009 12:40 PM

Try this. Hook up a OBD2 scanner and see what your emmissions level is. Takes a few seconds and it's free.

jpdocdave 05-03-2009 01:10 PM

i'm gonna try to be as nice as i can, but that is just plain wrong. you cannot tell how or why an engine would be burning oil from a scanner, i own one (scanner, not code reader) and i use them every day. we have 4 in my shop.

nothing in that scanner says anything about that. an exhaust gas analyzer could give you info about hydrocarbons and so on, but a scanner will not help here. even an exhaust gas analyzer, i'm not sure would help. besides, its pretty much nailed down its consuming it.

scanners have tons of info, that will just confuse someone that doesn't know what to do with it.

Wrestling Wrangler 05-03-2009 04:24 PM

My point was if you are running too lean the engine will try to find something to burn aka. engine oil. Maybe not much to see or smell.
Just another idea to kick around.
How about checking the spark plugs. They also can tell a story.
The engine flush is the way to go or at least a good place to start.

Jerry Bransford 05-03-2009 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrestling Wrangler (Post 366089)
My point was if you are running too lean the engine will try to find something to burn aka. engine oil.

Now THAT'S an interesting concept. Where'd you come up with that? :)

Wrestling Wrangler 05-03-2009 04:33 PM

Working on heavy equipment for 30 years. I know these are gas engines not diesels. When a 500hp engine starts starving for fuel it will suck up oil past the rings. I'm very old school.

joemd60 05-03-2009 04:50 PM

I may try the engine flush, I will throw it around with my Mechanic and see if he will do it. As for the plugs and not to sound stupid but where the hell are they? Another thing, while I am not too happy about the quart per change. The couple of dollars will not break me, so if it stays at needing a quart as opposed to hundreds of dollars to fix it than I will live with the problem until it gets worse. Also this jeep passed emissions without any problems.

jpdocdave 05-03-2009 05:21 PM

the plugs are on the passenger side of the head, if your jeep is newer its direct ignition so if you don't see plug wires going to them, they are under a long coil pack

i agree, it is probably liveable. and the flush and lucas will most likely help if you choose that route, i doubt you need to repair anything.

whenever i had a jeep that used any oil at all i checked it at evey gas up, cuz if it gets worse, and too low, you're screwed.

joemd60 05-03-2009 05:36 PM

All you guys who have posted have been very helpful, thank you. I always check my oil at every other fill up which is to me a give in. But what matters the most I still love my jeep!:)

Bignuke 05-03-2009 05:45 PM

I agree with JP, I checked my air filter and I had oil all over it. How did it get there? I have no clue.


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