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-   -   Before I replace my solenoid & starter.... (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/before-i-replace-my-solenoid-and-starter-321361.html)

Ryp 10-01-2013 02:33 PM

Before I replace my solenoid & starter....
 
2006 TJ Unlimited 4.0 6 speed manual.

Nothing happens but the whine of the fuel pump when ignition key is turned. here's what I've tried and found out.

Swapped out starter relay with identical one for fog lights ( the relays all look to be interchangeable)

Put 10 Amp fuse in clutch override.

Cleaned battery terminals. Battery tests at a little over 12 volts - drops about to around 11.8 when ignition turned. It might be a little low as I didn't use a digital meter until after testing solenoid and starter.

Solenoid S terminal tests at 11.8 when ignition is turned on.

Starter motor spins when directly connected to battery.

Tried to jump solenoid from battery. Engine cranks, but doesn't catch, and after several seconds starts to die down.

I'm not a mechanic, and haven't really worked on a vehicle since I had an old Chevy pickup 25 years ago, but the starter and solenoid look to be only a minor pain to swap out, and I'm just wondering if I should check anything else before taking that step. My mechanic is reasonable enough, that if I could just get it running, I'm tempted to drive it to him, rather than tow. I could try bump starting it, but I'm on a busy street, and have to roll it out of the driveway first.

If I do this should I swap out both the solenoid and starter or just the solenoid?

Thanks for any advice,

Richard

Jerry Bransford 10-01-2013 08:53 PM

When you jumped the solenoid from the battery to make it crank the engine and it didn't start, was the ignition switch turned on?

What does the voltage of the battery drop down to when the ignition switch is turned to Start and the starter motor should be turning but it's not?

Digger84 10-01-2013 09:38 PM

If touching 12 volts to small terminal on solenoid makes starter crank engine your prob is not the solenoid or starter as you just proved they work as they should

Ryp 10-02-2013 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 5016265)
When you jumped the solenoid from the battery to make it crank the engine and it didn't start, was the ignition switch turned on?

What does the voltage of the battery drop down to when the ignition switch is turned to Start and the starter motor should be turning but it's not?

The ignition was turned on. I tried it two ways. turning the ignition on before and after touching the s terminal.

the voltage dropped to about 11.8

Big Sarge 10-02-2013 08:44 AM

I would bet you have a broken actuator pin in the ignition switch itself. Check this out.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/wont...ml#post4116035

Ryp 10-02-2013 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digger84 (Post 5017729)
If touching 12 volts to small terminal on solenoid makes starter crank engine your prob is not the solenoid or starter as you just proved they work as they should

But the engine won't catch, and the solenoid still registers getting 11.8 when the ignition is cranked without a direct connection from the the positive terminal on the battery to the S terminal via jumper cable, but nothing happens.

If jumping a solenoid is it normal for the starter to wind down after several seconds if it doesn't catch, so as to not burn out the starter?

Jerry Bransford 10-02-2013 09:08 AM

No, it's not normal for the starter to slow down after only several seconds of cranking.

Digger84 10-02-2013 12:53 PM

Depends on battery and connections proves nothing about the starter

My wife fried her starter when key stuck and it bump started in less than 2 feet of roll

I drove it home and replaced starter

By the way power is product of amps and volts so volts alone ain't the whole story

Bottom line it only takes minimal engine turning to start unless you have other probs

But heck if you want to waste money replacing a working starter go for it it's your money not mine

Ryp 10-02-2013 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 5027601)
No, it's not normal for the starter to slow down after only several seconds of cranking.

Tested it again this morning. Battery was reading 12.18 - a little low, but still should get some response from starter under normal circumstances. I tested the voltage at the solenoid terminal for the positive batt cable and the engine ground, and still got 12.18, so I think I can rule out bad connections to the battery. First time I tried to jump the s terminal, it cranks for a few seconds before dying, try again a few seconds later, and it's less, and finally a third time and it barely cranks. I tested all the connections again with jumper cables connecting a brand new battery to the jeeps, and was getting solid readings above 13 volts at all connections, and also jumped the big terminals on the solenoid, getting electrical motor noise from the starter but no cranking. After I get back from some errands, I'm going to pull the starter and get it bench tested at autozone, but I can't figure out what else it could be at this point other than a bad solenoid.

If it was an ignition, starter relay or clutch safety switch problem, I shouldn't be getting a reading at the S terminal when cranking the ignition, correct?

Digger84 10-02-2013 01:52 PM

Load test the battery

Ryp 10-02-2013 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digger84 (Post 5034025)
Load test the battery

I;ll take the battery in for a test, but I get nothing hooking up to a brand new battery out of my Honda. And the starter just clicks now, when I try to jump the s terminal, so I'll take it in for a test as well.

Digger84 10-02-2013 05:15 PM

Unless you remove the old battery jumping will divert mostly into drained battery

Also check and clean all main cables
Both battery terminals
The ground connection of battery ground
Starter pos to solenoid

Ryp 10-02-2013 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digger84 (Post 5038297)
Unless you remove the old battery jumping will divert mostly into drained battery

Also check and clean all main cables
Both battery terminals
The ground connection of battery ground
Starter pos to solenoid

Thanks, did all that. Now I'm dealing with a frozen nut on the starter.

Ryp 10-03-2013 10:03 PM

turns out the battery was going bad , but replacing it didn't fix my problems, starter tested good at autozone. Nothing happens when turning ignition, even though voltage checks out to all connections. Still can't get the engine to fire when cranking the starter with a direct jump to the s terminal, and can smell gas ,and the fuel pump seems to work.

Is it possible that something like the PCM could impede the amperage but not the voltage available to the solenoid through the ignition system, and still prevent the injectors from working even when the ignition is bypassed? I guess I'll have to take it to a mechanic.

RUBI 4 MY MRS 10-04-2013 01:13 AM

The ’05 & ‘06s work a little differently than the earlier ones & for some reason, I’m not sure why, it seems they won’t start with the key on & jumping the solenoid. The relay control from the clutch switch or the park/neutral switch (depending on which trans you have) goes to the PCM rather than to the relay & power from the ignition switch also goes to the PCM as well as the relay so somewhere the PCM apparently knows it’s not seeing the proper signal to the relay & won’t give ignition &/or fuel is my best guess. So you have to get all the signals to the relay to get it to start. One is apparently missing & you need to find it.

Try pulling the starter relay & test the terminals in the socket as follows: Make sure that the #30 terminal has power (from fuse 6 in the PDC) & with the trans in neutral, make a jumper wire & jump to the 87 terminal. That should engage the starter & crank the engine. If good, then see if one (usually 85) gets grounded when you push the clutch in. If no ground, the clutch switch may be bad so try jumping the across the 2 wires there (don’t rely on adding the fuse). Then see if one of the terminals in the socket (usually 86) gets power when you turn the key to the start position. If no power you may have a bad ignition switch or broken actuator pin keeping the key from turning the switch all the way to the start position. You can try removing the switch from the key cylinder assembly & turning the switch with a screwdriver.



I’m guessing that either you are not getting power or ground to the relay where you need it.

Digger84 10-04-2013 07:08 AM

Even with fuel and cranking if no ignition spark no start

I never played with 05 06 but if you have the sentry key crap and the key chip fails [like when my mom dropped her ford keys] thy key wont crank and a jumper to solenoid wont start engine as no spark as ecu is trying to keep jeep from being stolen

Ryp 10-04-2013 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUBI 4 MY MRS (Post 5075761)
The í05 & Ď06s work a little differently than the earlier ones & for some reason, Iím not sure why, it seems they wonít start with the key on & jumping the solenoid. The relay control from the clutch switch or the park/neutral switch (depending on which trans you have) goes to the PCM rather than to the relay & power from the ignition switch also goes to the PCM as well as the relay so somewhere the PCM apparently knows itís not seeing the proper signal to the relay & wonít give ignition &/or fuel is my best guess. So you have to get all the signals to the relay to get it to start. One is apparently missing & you need to find it.

Try pulling the starter relay & test the terminals in the socket as follows: Make sure that the #30 terminal has power (from fuse 6 in the PDC) & with the trans in neutral, make a jumper wire & jump to the 87 terminal. That should engage the starter & crank the engine. If good, then see if one (usually 85) gets grounded when you push the clutch in. If no ground, the clutch switch may be bad so try jumping the across the 2 wires there (donít rely on adding the fuse). Then see if one of the terminals in the socket (usually 86) gets power when you turn the key to the start position. If no power you may have a bad ignition switch or broken actuator pin keeping the key from turning the switch all the way to the start position. You can try removing the switch from the key cylinder assembly & turning the switch with a screwdriver.



Iím guessing that either you are not getting power or ground to the relay where you need it.

Thanks. I think it is the actuator pin. I got cranking on 30 to 87 connection but no turn over. I got a reading ( 32V- is that right?) testing the 85 socket but nothing on the 86 socket either off or when turning ignition. With the relay module halfway in - I can jump it from the 30 to the 85 and the engine RUNS. Also testing the 86 connection with the relay module halfway in, I get a 30V reading when turning the ignition. I guess taking apart the ignition is next - I have a Torx set, but I guess I need a special T10 security head for the ignition.

Big Sarge 10-04-2013 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryp (Post 5086409)
Thanks. I think it is the actuator pin. I got cranking on 30 to 87 connection but no turn over. I got a reading ( 32V- is that right?) testing the 85 socket but nothing on the 86 socket either off or when turning ignition. With the relay module halfway in - I can jump it from the 30 to the 85 and the engine RUNS. Also testing the 86 connection with the relay module halfway in, I get a 30V reading when turning the ignition. I guess taking apart the ignition is next - I have a Torx set, but I guess I need a special T10 security head for the ignition.

You probably are missing a . in there and it is reading 3.2v-

As far as the actuator pin i posted a link with a video back in post 5 for you.:welcome:

RUBI 4 MY MRS 10-04-2013 02:32 PM

So the 85 is from the ignition switch which is not giving power to close the relay. By jumping the terminal you are closing the relay AND back feeding the PCM as I thought & allowing the engine to run. That is good info. So yes the ignition switch/actuator pin is next. I have read that you can break out the security pin in the Torx bolts with a small punch but haven’t actually had to try that.

I don’t know why you would get those high voltage readings from the ground side of the relay coil. You should be getting continuity to ground with the clutch in or bypassed, not voltage but only if the relay is out or no power is on the other terminal of the coil. If power is on the other side you will get some power coming through the coil but it should be less than battery voltage (maybe as Big Sarge says). But who knows, as long as it works.

Seafire327 10-04-2013 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Sarge (Post 5088937)
You probably are missing a . in there and it is reading 3.2v-

As far as the actuator pin i posted a link with a video back in post 5 for you.:welcome:

I JUST fixed this exact same problem on my '03 last week. Same symptoms. The ignition actuator pin was in pieces when I took it off of the ignition switch. When I put it back together, started right up.

(Note: Not sure if my ignition switch was bad, but I replaced it anyway. Total cost for everything was $60 from Advance)

Ryp 10-04-2013 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Sarge (Post 5088937)
You probably are missing a . in there and it is reading 3.2v-

As far as the actuator pin i posted a link with a video back in post 5 for you.:welcome:


Thanks very much - you were right, and the video was very helpful. I should have taken apart the ignition earlier, but was thrown by the fact that the solenoid wire was still showing a charge when the ignition was turned. And checking the starter and solenoid seemed less intimidating than taking the whole ignition assembly apart ( less and larger screws for me to drop and have trouble finding).

Everything working fine now.

Ryp 10-04-2013 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUBI 4 MY MRS (Post 5089273)
So the 85 is from the ignition switch which is not giving power to close the relay. By jumping the terminal you are closing the relay AND back feeding the PCM as I thought & allowing the engine to run. That is good info. So yes the ignition switch/actuator pin is next. I have read that you can break out the security pin in the Torx bolts with a small punch but havenít actually had to try that.

I donít know why you would get those high voltage readings from the ground side of the relay coil. You should be getting continuity to ground with the clutch in or bypassed, not voltage but only if the relay is out or no power is on the other terminal of the coil. If power is on the other side you will get some power coming through the coil but it should be less than battery voltage (maybe as Big Sarge says). But who knows, as long as it works.

Thanks for all your help. As it turned out, i didn't need a security Torx, I was able to get the screws out with a regular T10


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