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-   -   6 speed popping out of 1st gear. (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/6-speed-popping-out-of-1st-gear-35605.html)

1EYEDJACK 08-28-2009 12:41 PM

6 speed popping out of 1st gear.
 
I have a brand new 09 Unlimited X 4 door with 2700 miles. This past weekend the transmission popped out of first gear and into neutral when starting from a dead stop - have to immediately shift to second gear. This has happened 3 more times since. It has only happened when starting from a dead stop in first gear and depending on the RPM the popping out can be quite violent - enough to hurt your hand. First time it happened I thought someone had rear ended me. I have it scheduled at the dealer. Searching the web I have found that this seems to be a fairly common problem but I havent found the cure yet. Anyone have any insights?:mad:

Codeman911 08-28-2009 12:53 PM

You have already taken the appropriate step in contacting the dealer!

scottrock 08-28-2009 02:52 PM

FWIW, mine did that a few times when it was brand new. Scared the crap outa me every time. A very loud "BANG!" Now I'm a bit over 40k and it hasn't done it a very long time. Maybe it just needs to break in a bit more?

jk'n 08-28-2009 05:01 PM

My first 08 did it in second but my hand was on the shifter and I probably had applied some pressure to it just before getting ready to shift. It was under power and when it happened, the jarring on my hand and the noise really caught me by surprise. Had to check for skid marks :D.

It didn't do it again and it hasn't happened on the Rubi.

whitebomber 08-29-2009 06:16 AM

Haven't heard of that. We're at about 7k and haven't had that happen. Let us know what the dealer has to say.

JeepItUp 08-30-2009 10:30 AM

I have a 2009 2 Door Sahara that I purchased at the end of March. Around 1500k the transmission began popping out of 3rd gear. It was a pretty violent popping out, much like you guys described. I took it back to the dealer twice and never could get the transmission to do the same thing for them. On the third trip back it finally popped out for a tech that was riding with me. They kept the jeep and ordered new parts for the transmission that they said would "fix" the problem. The parts were on back order so I had to wait a week before they even began to work on it. After the parts were installed they called back to say that the parts did not fix the problem and they were going to put a new transmission in. I waited another week for the transmission to get there. Once it did, they put it in and called to say it was ready. I picked it up and on my way home it popped out of 1st gear!!! I immediately turned around and took it right back. They ordered another transmission and I waited another week. (i had a crappy little dodge caliber for a rental, which they paid for, this whole time...almost a month) Once this last transmission came in and was installed I finally got my Jeep back. I've had no problems since and I'm at 5500k. I hope that's the last of my troubles with my Jeep...I was starting to wonder if I had made a horrible purchase!! So, DEFINITELY take it back to the dealer and demand a new transmission!!

whitebomber 09-07-2009 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitebomber (Post 431499)
Haven't heard of that. We're at about 7k and haven't had that happen. Let us know what the dealer has to say.

Spoke too soon! At 7,777 miles I experienced the rather violent and very loud pop out of gear from a stop. As jtmdaniels mentioned also, my wife said it seemed like someone rear-ended us. Then again about 10 miles later I experienced a smaller but similar situation when downshifting to 2nd gear.

Very bummed. I'm hoping it was an anomaly and will quietly go away but must admit a bit skeptical.

USAntigoon 09-07-2009 10:49 AM

I responded in another forum to a similar issue as follows:

The 1/2 synchronizer sleeve (in which the 1/2 shift fork rides) moves towards first gear sliding over the synchro hub starting the synchronization process (synchro ring will be indexed and the cone will start picking up the cone of the first gear) Once the speed is equalized the coupler teeth will engage.. These teeth flanks have a back taper to assure positive engagement lock whilst transferring torque..
JOG (jump out of gear) can be created with following main conditions...
1) not enough spline (dogteeth) back-taper on synchro ring and coupler..(Manufacturing quality)
2) not FULL engagement during the shift cycle.. (shifting too fast or shifter boot interference)
3) the first gear has a triple cone synchronizer system and the floating synchro ring might drag too much (particularly in very cold weather..)
4) shift rail detent ball springs too weak (broken or worn out)

Everything has to be in balance to avoid "hard" shifts, (you still want to shift smoothly from 1-2 etc..) on one hand and to avoid JOG on the other hand..

The negative back taper is designed to create a lock whilst torque is transferred, as soon as you coast (reduce torque) the lock becomes less and with a bump it might do a JOG .

Just do a slow shift (be sure it is fully engaged) into first and get moving, keep a constant acceleration and maintain a slight load on the shifter towards second gear.. You will feel the "bite" from the back taper...if something is not right you will detect an easy slide out..

Bring the acceleration to almost coast and try this again..with a slight force the shifter can be moved out of first..

Just trying to give some background music..

1EYEDJACK 09-08-2009 08:06 AM

I took it to the dealership 10 days ago and left it for the day. Unfortunately, they were unable to reproduce the problem. It happended again 2 more times this weekend. Needless to say, calling the dealership is one of my first priorities this morning.

whitebomber 09-08-2009 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtmdaniels (Post 437428)
I took it to the dealership 10 days ago and left it for the day. Unfortunately, they were unable to reproduce the problem. It happended again 2 more times this weekend. Needless to say, calling the dealership is one of my first priorities this morning.

Just curious, do you have your hand on the shifter when you are accelerating from a stop? My habit is to have my hand on the shifter most all the time, so it's on the shifter when pulling out also, in anticipation of shifting to second.

Not that I should have to but I'm trying real hard keep my hand off the shifter while pulling out and then grabbing it when it's time to shift to second. I've read other places that this seemed to be when it would happen, when the hand is on the shifter.

Either way it's not right but would maybe give a little insight. Read about a few people that had to have the transmission replaced to fix the issue.

1EYEDJACK 09-08-2009 03:36 PM

I am quite confident that I have not accidently "pulled" it out of gear. I do tend to keep my hand on the shifter - now moreso in case I have to quickly yank it into second when merging into or crossing traffic to keep from getting in an accident.

440junk 10-01-2009 03:41 PM

My '07 has done this intemittantly since new. But at around 30,000km it started to do it on a regular basis. When i took it to the dealership i also was told thet they could not replicate the problem. But then a couple weeks later i get a phone call saying there is a new transmission waiting to be fitted. Took it in, they fitted the trans, i picked it up, all was fine for about 1-2 weeks. Then it started doing it again, only this time it seems worse than before, and definatly does it more often than before. So back to the dealership, they still couldnt replicate it, so i strapped a video recorder to the center console and filmed it while i was driving. The dealership now has the footage, but have no idea what is going on. They are sending the film to jeep to see what they say.

jk'n 10-01-2009 03:47 PM

junk,

Welcome to WF :wavey:.

440junk 10-01-2009 03:56 PM

thanks for the welcome. I do wish now that i had got the auto trans.

schnutzy 10-01-2009 04:08 PM

sounds like there might be a potential recall or something coming up

USAntigoon 10-01-2009 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 440junk (Post 451736)
My '07 has done this intemittantly since new. But at around 30,000km it started to do it on a regular basis. When i took it to the dealership i also was told thet they could not replicate the problem. But then a couple weeks later i get a phone call saying there is a new transmission waiting to be fitted. Took it in, they fitted the trans, i picked it up, all was fine for about 1-2 weeks. Then it started doing it again, only this time it seems worse than before, and definatly does it more often than before. So back to the dealership, they still couldnt replicate it, so i strapped a video recorder to the center console and filmed it while i was driving. The dealership now has the footage, but have no idea what is going on. They are sending the film to jeep to see what they say.


In another forum I posted the following.. (Seen the fact that you got a new tranny, you might dig into this a bit further...)

"Just tell the dealer that you don't have enough positive coupler lock in first gear.. and it needs to be fixed.. I suggest you ask him to take the outer shifter boot off then realign the inner boot assembly over the shifter bracket/sled to which it is installed..I assume that the latter are add on items by the Chrysler assembly plant in their trans dress up line..I am sure this is just a bolt-on process without any positive lock (dowels etc..) My be this needs to be replaced and/or re-aligned..

With a "healthy" set-up you should feel the positive detent engagement whilst shifting in first or any gear..

This was going to be my approach.."


The above mis-alignment can/will affect any gear..

Good Luck..

yjwes 10-01-2009 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USAntigoon (Post 436868)
I responded in another forum to a similar issue as follows:

The 1/2 synchronizer sleeve (in which the 1/2 shift fork rides) moves towards first gear sliding over the synchro hub starting the synchronization process (synchro ring will be indexed and the cone will start picking up the cone of the first gear) Once the speed is equalized the coupler teeth will engage.. These teeth flanks have a back taper to assure positive engagement lock whilst transferring torque..
JOG (jump out of gear) can be created with following main conditions...
1) not enough spline (dogteeth) back-taper on synchro ring and coupler..(Manufacturing quality)
2) not FULL engagement during the shift cycle.. (shifting too fast or shifter boot interference)
3) the first gear has a triple cone synchronizer system and the floating synchro ring might drag too much (particularly in very cold weather..)
4) shift rail detent ball springs too weak (broken or worn out)

Everything has to be in balance to avoid "hard" shifts, (you still want to shift smoothly from 1-2 etc..) on one hand and to avoid JOG on the other hand..

The negative back taper is designed to create a lock whilst torque is transferred, as soon as you coast (reduce torque) the lock becomes less and with a bump it might do a JOG .

Just do a slow shift (be sure it is fully engaged) into first and get moving, keep a constant acceleration and maintain a slight load on the shifter towards second gear.. You will feel the "bite" from the back taper...if something is not right you will detect an easy slide out..

Bring the acceleration to almost coast and try this again..with a slight force the shifter can be moved out of first..

Just trying to give some background music..

WC Engineering : 5th Gear Pop-Out

thewJEEPsand 10-01-2009 08:07 PM

Glad you are fighting with your dealer...
 
...I have had this issue from Day 1. I have a 2009 rubicon unlimited, it has been to the dealer and is currently at the deal for this. They are unable to reproduce the problem. It has happened probably 60-100 times (in 7500miles), and they claim that they have never heard of this issue before (bull sh*t).

I did talk to the tranny tech and he let it slip that this is a "common manual transmission problem". Yet the dealer still will not fix the problem because they cannot induce it. I'm writing a letter to corporate, hoping that they will do something. Honestly i either want them to fix it or my money back.

You would expect after paying 30K+ for a automobile it would work right for at least the first year??? Plus this is the 5th issue i've had with mine so until they fix it, i will be negetive nancy. Other than that it is sweet!!!!

sorry for the rant! Please make sure to have the Dealer post the solution on there internal message boards!!!!

USAntigoon 10-01-2009 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yjwes (Post 451891)

I have some serious issues with that "general" overview..Synchro couplers have back tapers to assure positive lock whilst torque is transferred..
My previous reference was typical for the JK manual transmission..
The reference to the helical gear axial forces is correct however the effect on the synchro is minimal as this movement is all included into the design parameters...

USAntigoon 10-01-2009 08:42 PM

The first important job in analyzing a JOG (Jumping Out of Gear) condition is to separate the problem into two main root cause possibilities.. (assuming proper shifting techniques are applied)
1) is it shift lever interference or bad assembly..(external)
2) is it an internal transmission issue....

I am including a pic from their parts catalog to better depict how interferences can be existing between the different boot assemblies (4-5), the shifter sled bracket (8) and its position onto the transmission case..(as referred in above post #16) Any issue here will affect full engagement travel, hence setting you up for a JOG condition..

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2432/...fa3d13c322.jpg

yjwes 10-01-2009 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USAntigoon (Post 451910)
I have some serious issues with that "general" overview..Synchro couplers have back tapers to assure positive lock whilst torque is transferred..
My previous reference was typical for the JK manual transmission..
The reference to the helical gear axial forces is correct however the effect on the synchro is minimal as this movement is all included into the design parameters...

i an not at all familiare with the jk 6 speed however in most cases synchros play no roll on a trans popping out of gear

USAntigoon 10-01-2009 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yjwes (Post 451918)
i an not at all familiare with the jk 6 speed however in most cases synchros play no roll on a trans popping out of gear

I respectfully disagree:

The internal splines of the synchro sleeve have a "backtaper" to assure positive lock with the gear coupler teeth (dogteeth) once the synchronization has been done..In fact these gear dogteeth have a backtaper as well.. This is the locking feature to avoid JOG..

Enjoy

yjwes 10-01-2009 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USAntigoon (Post 451924)
I respectfully disagree:

The internal splines of the synchro sleeve have a "backtaper" to assure positive lock with the gear coupler teeth (dogteeth) once the synchronization has been done..In fact these gear dogteeth have a backtaper as well.. This is the locking feature to avoid JOG..

Enjoy

i do believe u are correct in the fact that may cause pop

out however i think in most cases it is a alignment problem do to bad bearings case and point a lot of transes pop out of reverse and reverse isnt synchronized also for no synchronized transes its the sliding clutches that cause pop out

USAntigoon 10-01-2009 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yjwes (Post 451929)
i do believe u are correct in the fact that may cause pop

out however i think in most cases it is a alignment problem do to bad bearings case and point a lot of transes pop out of reverse and reverse isnt synchronized also for no synchronized transes its the sliding clutches that cause pop out

I will also admit that backtaper issues are NOT the only cause for JOG..I have been heavily involved with HD manual transmission sync and non sync. Those transmission having multiple inner walls are very "sensitive" to shaft misalignment and will indeed induce JOG..

Anyway, I don't want to highjack this thread and like to stick to the JK transmission...Quite some Jeepers have JOG issues starting with low mileage and in my humble opinion the shift lever tower, which is a final assembly line item, is the first thing I was going to look into..
I don't know whether there is a way for a dealer to remove all of shift boots, shifter sled, etc.. and road test the JOG Jeep with the shifter straight to the transmission shift stub. This will eliminate all these possible interferences..

Outcome of this test will define the next step..either fix the interferences or get a new transmission..;)

1EYEDJACK 10-02-2009 11:35 AM

Going back into the shop for the 3rd time next week. They are planning to keep it for a couple of days and hopefully dig deeper into the problem beyond driving it and being unable to reproduce the problem.

Has anyone heard more about a potential recall?

USAntigoon 10-02-2009 11:48 AM

I did a check in the NHTSA data base of the complaints and investigations and I couldn't find any..
Only the issue with auto transmissions overheating..

1EYEDJACK 10-02-2009 11:52 AM

It would seem that this is not an isolated case - in fact is fairly common. Not sure what it takes for someone to take notice.

abarabas 10-02-2009 01:43 PM

My Tremec T-56 pops out of 1st now and then but it's due to a crappy shifter (04-06 GTO's had sloppy shifter linkage) and lazy shifting by me.

thewJEEPsand 10-05-2009 05:51 PM

Lucky
 
Dealer sent me home and stuck me with the rental car bill. Did i mention it poped out on my way home!!!!

You can imagine I'm Pissed :banghead: very pissed :firedevil:

I sent a letter to corporate, salesman, General service manager and i will be trying to get in contact with the Jeep rep when they come for there quarterlty visit.

Also in the mean time i am documenting the mileage, time, date, condition of each issue (i have 3 issues they refuse to resolve). I got my jeep back on friday, it poped out 6 times this weekend.

This is really turning me off of Jeep.

Other issues include:

Navigation/Cd player turns off intermittenly
Key Fob fails to operate

anyone have these issues?

440junk 10-09-2009 11:25 PM

i have removed the console and the upper and lower shifter boot yesterday, and so far it has not done it since. I will put them back in one at a time and see if i can isolate the culprit. On the other hand, if it does do it in the next couple of days with the boots off, that only really leaves the gearbox itself. will post up progress for those interested


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