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-   -   winch question (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/winch-question-37360.html)

noljohn 10-01-2009 05:49 PM

winch question
 
Newbie here. Bought me a 2004 tj about a month ago and just bought a winch for it. My question is in the instructions I see nothing about fuse protection. The winch is a Smittybilt Xrc8. Also is there anything special about mounting the fairlead. Do I need to build a frame to mount it to. It doesn't attach to the winch itself does it. thanks for the help

Cons_Table 10-01-2009 05:53 PM

as far as mounting the winch goes, you probably need one of these, a winch mounting plate

http://www.4x4groupbuy.com/store/ima...inch_Plate.jpg

Jerry Bransford 10-01-2009 05:55 PM

No fuse is needed for a winch any more than a fuse is in your engine's starter motor circuit. Besides, since a winch can easily draw in excesso of 400 amps, it'd have to be a HUGE fuse.

A fairlead normally attaches to the front of the required winch mounting plate as shown above which has mounting provisions for a fairlead or hawse. :)

nicolas-eric 10-01-2009 06:08 PM

I would install an interrupt relay in the + cable from the battery to the winch. on that way you can turn the winch off when you donīt need it.

is a 8.000 lbs winch enough for a TJ?
since august I have a very fast 9.500 lbs winch (65 ft/min), before I had a cheap 12.000 lbs winch that was very slow. but somtimes I wish I still had the old winch. with teh new one I need a snatch block more often.

Jerry Bransford 10-01-2009 06:14 PM

Installing an "interrupt" relay is just introducing a point of failure into a circuit that needs to work when asked to. 99.999999999% of all the winch installations in Jeeps where virtually all installation instructions say to connect the winch directly to the battery are uneventful and create no problems. Besides, not many relays are designed to carry 400+ amps. There is no need to do anything for the winch except connect it directly to the battery. If there were any real or legitimate issues whatsover, you can bet for liability reasons all the winch manufacturers would have by now started including fuses, interlocks, etc. but they don't.

Nicolas, do you have an interrupt relay on your starter motor which is also connected directly to the battery? No? I didn't think so. ;)

And yes of course an 8,000 lb. winch is plenty for a Jeep with the usual recommendation of 8,000 to 9,500 being the recommended winching capacity for a Wrangler.

nicolas-eric 10-01-2009 06:19 PM

I use the starter only for seconds.
But after winching for a long time the winch can become very hot. If there is a short in the winch motor because the winding melts an interrup t relay is a good thing to prevent a damaged battery because of the short.

noljohn 10-01-2009 06:27 PM

thanks for the info guys I think that answers all my questions.

Jerry Bransford 10-01-2009 06:27 PM

Show us any winch manufacturer's instructions where they say to do anything other than to connect the winch directly to the battery and I'll eat my words. Of the MANY winch manufacturers out there, NONE... NONE... say to do anything but to connect the winch DIRECTLY to the battery.

Next do YOU have such a relay connected into your winch's circuit? Do you even have a winch? If you claim to have such a relay, I'd love to see a pic of how you have it installed. If you don't, then you're either being hypocritical or not speaking from experience.

Finally... again, if what you are wringing your hands over was a legitimate issue, the winch manufacturer's attorneys would have been all over requiring fuses, interlocks, etc. but they don't.

In other words, this is a non-issue despite your worrying about theoretical stuff that is all a non-issue.

nicolas-eric 10-01-2009 06:37 PM

Yes. I do have two winches. And I have such an interrupt relay and a HD relay instead of the cheap solenoid box and I have cables that are 4 time thicker than the cables that come with a stock winch (the old ones were 16 mm2, I have 50 mm2).

A friend works as an electronic technician in an atomic power plant. And he knows what he says. He told me to do all that things.

First I couldnīt believe what he told me. But after installing the new cables the voltage dropped 50% less than before with the thin cables.

If you donīt believe that and you want to see pics of my winch, wiring and parts, please ask me.

4point 10-01-2009 06:50 PM

Just as a note, IEC style components are much smaller than American standards and 400A fuses that are smaller than a smallest of cell phones are readily available. Right or wrong its all what you want to spend to protect the equipment and/or battery. And, yes it does create another point of possible failure.

Jerry Bransford 10-01-2009 06:52 PM

You have "a HD" relay instead of the cheap solenoid box? A solenoid box has at least two and the good ones have four relays in them. My Warn doesn't use any cheap relays, they are all US made sealed relays.

On the interlock relay, since you believe it is needed so much, I'd say you need to contact the world's Jeep-size winch manufacturers and try to convince them they're all wrong by not including that with their winches. There must be some kind of a world-wide issue with this since none of them do include or even recommend one be added. And your winch powere cables are now 4X larger than what it came with? It's a good thing that you were never in any of my electronics classes I taught years ago. Going with 4x larger diameter cables is more than excessive and was not needed. A simple jump up to the next larger or two gauge cable would have been a nice upgrade without getting crazy about it.

Your 4x larger winch power cables are 50mm (2") in diameter now? 2"? Are you kidding us? Nothing like a little massive overkill. ;) Now THAT I would love to see a picture of. Yes please, I want to see a pic of your winch showing 2" diameter power cables running between it, your battery, and that solenoid. :D

popa 10-02-2009 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 451831)
On the interlock relay, since you believe it is needed so much, I'd say you need to contact the world's Jeep-size winch manufacturers and try to convince them they're all wrong by not including that with their winches. There must be some kind of a world-wide issue with this since none of them do include or even recommend one be added. And your winch powere cables are now 4X larger than what it came with? It's a good thing that you were never in any of my electronics classes I taught years ago. Going with 4x larger diameter cables is more than excessive and was not needed. A simple jump up to the next larger or two gauge cable would have been a nice upgrade without getting crazy about it.

Your 4x larger winch power cables are 50mm (2") in diameter now? 2"? Are you kidding us? Nothing like a little massive overkill. ;) Now THAT I would love to see a picture of. Yes please, I want to see a pic of your winch showing 2" diameter power cables running between it, your battery, and that solenoid. :D

I think that Nicolas was talking in sqmm (area) of the cross-section. The 50smm will lead to some 8 mm in diameter for the wires, plus the insulation.
On the other hand, I agree that maybe is not needed, but some folks in my country (that participate in various competitions) are using the same philisophy: a relay or a master-switch for the winch. They say that it prevents accidental damage if the winch fails to stop (it seems that there were some cases - bad contacts in the remote control or something else). Maybe is a difference in philosophy US vs Europe, I don't know.:confused:

csamn2007 10-02-2009 02:23 PM

I am purchasing the same winch, at what point do i need a new alternator/battery? If i am running 4 100w lights and a winch.

mudslinger150 10-02-2009 03:17 PM

nicolas can i see some pics of your wiring to your winch.

nicolas-eric 10-02-2009 03:17 PM

Yes I was talking about square-millimeters. I used a 50 square millimeters welding cable.

I have such an Albright waterproof HD relay instead of the stock solenoid box:
http://nakatanenga-tours.de/.media/990373501846.png

And in the cable between + of the battery and the relay there is a Warn interrupt relay.

nicolas-eric 10-02-2009 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudslinger150 (Post 452295)
nicolas can i see some pics of your wiring to your winch.

Albright HD relay:

http://up.picr.de/3011199.jpg

Warn interrupt relay, the pic is from 2008, there are still the old calbles on the pic:

http://up.picr.de/3011200.jpg

Winch (itīs a Horn Alpha 9.500 Fast (a company from Austria) with a 6.5 HP motor and 110:1 gears and a 125' 3/8" winch line):

http://up.picr.de/3004711.jpg

Jerry Bransford 10-02-2009 04:08 PM

I was really more interested in seeing the cables. But be advised that the Warn interrupt relay is only rated to 175 amps continuous in a circuit that can easily draw more than 400 amperes.

Your larger power cables (sorry, I read your first reply to mean they were 50 mm across) won't cause any problems but my concern about interrupt relays has always been that most are not rated highly enough for a winch. Your 175 amp relay is in a 400 amp circuit and could cause more problems than it could prevent.

That's why I always advise against such relays in a winch circuit, darned few are rated highly enough to handle the types of problems you are trying to protect against. If your winch motor or wiring shorts, it's going to draw more than that solenoid can handle and then its contacts will likely weld themselves shut unless you can get to the switch in seconds.

As I said, such a relay can create more problems than it can prevent. That's why such an interrupt relay is not recommended by any winch manufacturers in their instructions. :)

mrcarcrazy 10-02-2009 04:18 PM

Jerry, read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by popa (Post 452043)
I think that Nicolas was talking in sqmm (area) of the cross-section. The 50smm will lead to some 8 mm in diameter for the wires, plus the insulation.
On the other hand, I agree that maybe is not needed, but some folks in my country (that participate in various competitions) are using the same philisophy: a relay or a master-switch for the winch. They say that it prevents accidental damage if the winch fails to stop (it seems that there were some cases - bad contacts in the remote control or something else). Maybe is a difference in philosophy US vs Europe, I don't know.:confused:


Quote:

Originally Posted by nicolas-eric (Post 452296)
Yes I was talking about square-millimeters. I used a 50 square millimeters welding cable.


Jerry Bransford 10-02-2009 04:22 PM

Gotcha, they're not 2" in diameter. Thanks mrcarcrazy, I corrected that.

nicolas-eric 10-02-2009 04:45 PM

Tha data sheet from Warn that came with the relay says that itīs a 500A relay.

rrich 10-02-2009 04:48 PM

I can see heavier cables -- IF you are running them farther than normal, like wrapping them around the seats 3 times. But under normal circumstances you wouldn't need them.

As far as the relay goes - it's supposed to be protection in case the motor shorts out? It's not a thermal device, it has to be activated by hand with a switch, so it's still manually operated. And it's just one more thing to fail.

If one is still uncomfortable, they make simple battery interrupt switches and knife switches, Jegs and RV supply stores. It too is a manual device - simple, cheap, and easy. Not sure, but I think the knife switches are rated for 400 amps.

I put a switch on my Rubi - it shuts off everything "just in case" - everything BUT the winch.
I also have a knife switch on the engine battery and a switch on the aux battery on my motorhome - "just in case."

Timberman 10-02-2009 04:58 PM

Nol John,

Before the old guard went off on their IEEE tangent, you asked a couple of questions..

You will not need fuse protection as Jerry answered earlier in the thread.

You will need a winch mount plate and fair lead like Cons Table said..

Thats it man; you will be good to go after that..

Just out of curiosity, why did you go with the XRC8? I am up in the Northwest and we rarely see those.. I did see one smitty built, but the guy placed a warn sticker on it and called it "Day Dreamin."

Jerry Bransford 10-02-2009 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicolas-eric (Post 452351)
Tha data sheet from Warn that came with the relay says that itīs a 500A relay.

Look again, that's only a peak rating. Its true continuous rating is closer to (if not exactly) 175 amps.

nicolas-eric 10-02-2009 05:08 PM

Oh thats not good.
Then I should install a 2nd relay parallel to the other one.
Under full load my winch needs +400A..

30-284 10-02-2009 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicolas-eric (Post 452351)
Tha data sheet from Warn that came with the relay says that itīs a 500A relay.


I use relays like that every day and they are rated at 50 amps cont. There is no way that relay is rated at 500 amps cont. maybe intermintent, but not cont. I have opened those relays up to see what size of contacts they have and I don't believe you could get contacts big enough in those little cases to handle that many amps.

Donn

30-284 10-02-2009 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 452365)
Look again, that's only a peak rating. Its true continuous rating is closer to (if not exactly) 175 amps.


Having seen inside those relays I think 175 amps is even pushing it

Jerry Bransford 10-02-2009 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicolas-eric (Post 452370)
Oh thats not good.
Then I should install a 2nd relay parallel to the other one.
Under full load my winch needs +400A..

If I were you, I'd get rid of it entirely. Adding another relay in parallel merely doubles the chance that something will go wrong in that circuit.

30-284 10-02-2009 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 451797)
Installing an "interrupt" relay is just introducing a point of failure into a circuit that needs to work when asked to.


^^^ Exactly

Donn

4point 10-02-2009 05:35 PM

This outfit is selling the SW80 series for winch applications.
Devon 4x4 Off Road - Albright HD Solenoid : DC88-276P : Off Road Equipment from Devon 4x4


Here is the tech data on the relay unit. It does not appear to be up to the task.
Albright SW80 Series DC Contactors

nicolas-eric 10-02-2009 06:23 PM

My relay has a cont. load of 485A. The leading European winch manufacturer uses these relays instead of a normal solenoid box.
Relaiskasten, wasserdicht, universal - Artikeldetailansicht - Nakatanenga 4x4-Equipment fÞr Land Rover & Outdoor

I just ordered a on/off unipolar relay with the same load to replace the warn relay.


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