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-   -   Synthetic Oil? (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/synthetic-oil-5298.html)

tigertribe 01-16-2007 01:26 AM

Synthetic Oil?
 
I've read in these forums that many people noticed a marked increase in fuel economy after 10,000 or more miles on a 4.0 engine. This would seem to mean that the engine is not fully broken in until that point. WHAT do you all think about using Mobil One or some other synthetic before that point? (A few people have told me that you shouldn't use a synthetic oil until the engine is broken in, but Mobile's website says that some car manufacturers including Porsche and BMW are using synthetic oil from day one, at the factory..) My 2006 Wrangler 4.0 is almost to 3,000 miles and I'm wondering whether or not I should wait to use synthetics. Also, what is your opinion of the best synthetic oil out there?

As always, thank you very much for your time and your help.

Best regards-

Nick

gcdcpakmbs 01-16-2007 05:48 AM

I'm changing to synthetic on my 9,000 mile change. Waiting simply for the same reason you described. I don't know authoritatively, but I have heard the same from a mechanic that owns his own shop and races. As good as oils are today, I can't see how running it for 10K can hurt.

tigertribe 01-16-2007 07:17 AM

Thank you!
 
I'm sure the advantages of synthetic oil would be evident no matter when you changed to it. 9000 miles makes sense, unless anyone else has information they want to give us...

Again, thank you for taking the time to reply.

Best regards-

Nick

skeeter 01-16-2007 08:30 AM

Amsoil
From what I was told when I purchased a new Dodge Cummins diesel years ago, the synthetics don't allow for proper seating of moving parts in a reasoable amount of time.
All engines are too tight when first assembled and need to "break in" the moving parts need to form to one another and the synthetics make that process take far longer than it should, until that happens you expend a great deal of your potential energy in friction.
My Dodge went from 16 mpg to 24 mpg highway at about 16,000 miles but it's the only new vehicle I've ever owned and I've never done a side by side comparison of 2 engines running the different oils to see if there's any truth in what I was told.

BTW, don't base any decision on what the factory does, drive trains today will easily outlast the warrenty even with no maintenance barring defects in design or material.

bmxstreet15 01-16-2007 10:51 AM

When ever you switch to synthetic make sure that you get all the conventional oil out of the engine. Once you go to synthetic you can never go back. If you mix conventional oil with synthetic oil it WILL form sludge. SO when you change to synthetic let the oil drain for a good couple hours to make sure you get as much of the old oil out as possible.

gcdcpakmbs 01-16-2007 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmxstreet15 (Post 46242)
When ever you switch to synthetic make sure that you get all the conventional oil out of the engine. Once you go to synthetic you can never go back. If you mix conventional oil with synthetic oil it WILL form sludge. SO when you change to synthetic let the oil drain for a good couple hours to make sure you get as much of the old oil out as possible.

Good point. When you change, definitely use a flush, and let it drain completely.

binaryking 01-16-2007 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigertribe (Post 46187)
I've read in these forums that many people noticed a marked increase in fuel economy after 10,000 or more miles on a 4.0 engine. This would seem to mean that the engine is not fully broken in until that point. WHAT do you all think about using Mobil One or some other synthetic before that point? (A few people have told me that you shouldn't use a synthetic oil until the engine is broken in, but Mobile's website says that some car manufacturers including Porsche and BMW are using synthetic oil from day one, at the factory..) My 2006 Wrangler 4.0 is almost to 3,000 miles and I'm wondering whether or not I should wait to use synthetics. Also, what is your opinion of the best synthetic oil out there?

As always, thank you very much for your time and your help.

Best regards-

Nick


I've been using quaker state synthetic blend for 4x4's and Frams tough guard filter since I bought my Jeep brand new 7 years ago. No problems after 80K miles so far. Just after you go synthetic, I hear it's a bad thing to go back to regular oil.

ct-tj 01-16-2007 05:17 PM

Im using synthetic my diffs... it quited them down quite a bit. I also just switched to it in the engine too, but Ill never trust the claims of 15k between oil changes.

AzTJ 01-16-2007 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ct-tj (Post 46319)
Im using synthetic my diffs... it quited them down quite a bit. I also just switched to it in the engine too, but Ill never trust the claims of 15k between oil changes.

Oil is oil and it will always break down, and no mater what they say, 5K IS THE MAX!


Not all companies ship thier new cars with synthetic, most of them are just going to lighter wieghts... and some are only avail in a synthetic formula such as a BMW takong 0W-30. Synthetics do resist heat a little better but wont last you another 10K between changes.


I donno about the break in time for a Jeep 4.0L... but on the Toyota 3.0L I-6 motors, it was somthing like 20-30K break in time. My friends mom has a 1995 Lexus SC300 that has 245K on the clock and still runs strong. She didn't start using synthetic untill 80K and has only needed regular maintnance on it.

If you do decide to go the synthetic route, I'd go for Royal Purple.

gcdcpakmbs 01-17-2007 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzTJ (Post 46342)
Oil is oil and it will always break down, and no mater what they say, 5K IS THE MAX!


Not all companies ship thier new cars with synthetic, most of them are just going to lighter wieghts... and some are only avail in a synthetic formula such as a BMW takong 0W-30. Synthetics do resist heat a little better but wont last you another 10K between changes.


I donno about the break in time for a Jeep 4.0L... but on the Toyota 3.0L I-6 motors, it was somthing like 20-30K break in time. My friends mom has a 1995 Lexus SC300 that has 245K on the clock and still runs strong. She didn't start using synthetic untill 80K and has only needed regular maintnance on it.

If you do decide to go the synthetic route, I'd go for Royal Purple.

I use synthetic in my truck and change the oil and filter every 3K. But living in SoTex, the heat on the highways in the summer is extreme. I agree, 10k on an oil change can't be wise.

ct-tj 01-17-2007 11:23 PM

Just make sure you flush the system. Ive heard some horror stories with the synthetic separating from the normal oil + turning to a foamy milk.... kinda like coolant in your oil.

skeeter 01-18-2007 07:01 AM

An easy way to find out if it'll last or not is to have it analyzed, it's fairly inexpensive and can give you some valuable information on how your engine is doing, I used to do it when I owned my own semi, when your oil changes are $150 a pop and the book says you need one every month you try and stretch em as far as possible.

BenMobile 12-20-2015 09:43 AM

Oils don't break down, the additive package does. Traditional oils add a Viscosity Index (VI) improver to allow them to extend higher Temerature ranges. So, a 10W30 is a 10 weight oil with an additive to allow it to perform like a 30 weight at higher temps (140F). Over time, this additive breaks down. More importantly, oil just gets dirty. A good filter is the best solution.

Synthetics do NOT have VI improvers, but naturally extend a wider Temerature range compared to mineral oils. This is due to the process they use to produce synthetics (they come from the gas phase of the cracking). In doing this, the product has the same sized molecules. Due to this, there is less internal fluid friction, thus reduced energy consumption.

All in all, synthetics have advantages over the life of your engine. The most important thing to change is your filter, typically 5k. The synthetics can last 10-15k, depending on your driving habits. In the end, fresh oil changes are cheap maintenance.

SecondTJ 12-20-2015 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMobile (Post 23079586)
Oils don't break down, the additive package does. Traditional oils add a Viscosity Index (VI) improver to allow them to extend higher Temerature ranges. So, a 10W30 is a 10 weight oil with an additive to allow it to perform like a 30 weight at higher temps (140F). Over time, this additive breaks down. More importantly, oil just gets dirty. A good filter is the best solution.

Synthetics do NOT have VI improvers, but naturally extend a wider Temerature range compared to mineral oils. This is due to the process they use to produce synthetics (they come from the gas phase of the cracking). In doing this, the product has the same sized molecules. Due to this, there is less internal fluid friction, thus reduced energy consumption.

All in all, synthetics have advantages over the life of your engine. The most important thing to change is your filter, typically 5k. The synthetics can last 10-15k, depending on your driving habits. In the end, fresh oil changes are cheap maintenance.

you resurrected an almost 9 year old thread?!

Habib 12-20-2015 02:54 PM

Hooooo boy!
 
................resurrected to mix in myths and bad info to boot. :tomatoes:


With only one post, this reeks of an 'independent marketing manager' for an over-hyped brand of oil.:banned:

DannyTX 12-20-2015 02:58 PM

Synthetic oil is better for a cold morning start up. It isn't near as thick as conventional oil when cold.

Jerry Bransford 12-20-2015 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyTX (Post 23083682)
Synthetic oil is better for a cold morning start up. It isn't near as thick as conventional oil when cold.

It has to be extremely cold for that to be a significant factor.

Habib 12-20-2015 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 23083930)
It has to be extremely cold for that to be a significant factor.


..............and even then, it may be slight.

jarata 12-21-2015 11:43 AM

dont waste your money

Stranger 12-21-2015 04:30 PM

Hmmmm.......whole lot of bull snuff in this old thread.

Atthehop 12-21-2015 04:32 PM

Don't drink the Kool Aid.

Silvercreek 12-22-2015 09:41 AM

Changing to full synthetic oil is a personal choice, no other reason. Full synthetic oils were developed for the aerospace industry and found its way onto the race car market. Full synthetic engine oils run a little cooler for engines that operate under extreme conditions. Synthetic oils have properties that remain on bearing surfaces which reduces engine wear. For conventional engines, the factory recommended oil are just fine. I have never heard or read where an engine failure was caused by the use of factory recommended oil.

Jerry Bransford 12-22-2015 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvercreek (Post 23114241)
Full synthetic oils were developed originally for the aerospace industry

Synthetic lubricants were originally developed by Germany during WWII after we started bombing the crap out of their oil refineries. There was no aerospace back then.

Silvercreek 12-22-2015 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 23114505)
Synthetic lubricants were originally developed by Germany during WWII after we started bombing the crap out of their oil refineries. There was no aerospace back then.

I'm talking about the US market. They didn't have high tech engine in the Jeeps during WWII. A lot of folks think that the entire content of an oil container is Full synthetic oil.

TJGarm06 12-22-2015 11:40 AM

I personally think that full synthetic is a waste. There's a reason that high performance engines need it and that's because the tolerances are tighter. The sloppy 4.0 is just fine with regular convention or semi synthetic oil. Your throwing money out the window with full synthetic. As long as you change your oil religiously every 3 - 5k your perfectly fine. My .02

00silverTJ 12-22-2015 12:20 PM

51 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by TJGarm06 (Post 23117457)
I personally think that full synthetic is a waste. There's a reason that high performance engines need it and that's because the tolerances are tighter. The sloppy 4.0 is just fine with regular convention or semi synthetic oil. Your throwing money out the window with full synthetic. As long as you change your oil religiously every 3 - 5k your perfectly fine. My .02

I hope you don't mind me using your post to make a point. Nothing personal...

One part of this debate never gets addressed. That is the question of whether people are expressing financial concerns or purely performance concerns. There are forever comments made such as these:

".....synthetic is a waste."
".... High performance engines NEED it." ( emphasis added)
"... The 4.0 is just fine with regular...."

It is also often stated something like " in cold temps there is some benefit but you don't NEED it if you live in the warmer regions...."

These, to me, point to a financial decision, and financial advice. Personally, I'm not looking for financial opinions but performance opinions.

The financial advice is never explicitly stated.

If Mobil 1 is recommended for really cold climates, why would you recommend changing that during summer months?

Only reason I can see is a financial reason, but again, that is never expressly stated.

Strip out the financial concerns and the egos being concerned withe being right, and having been doing everything right for the 50 years you've been wheeling, and it is clear that synthetics are better for our engines, financial concerns notwithstanding.

Jerry Bransford 12-22-2015 04:05 PM

I just hate it when threads go down an analysis paralysis argumentative rathole and someone gives some lame reason they made up on why they're correct and those who disagree are incorrect. Choosing not to install or run something that also happens to be more expensive does not mean it's a financial decision.

Here's a great illustration of my point: in 52 years of driving, I have chosen to stay with conventional motor oils. Never once have I had an engine failure or other problem caused by lubrication. Never a bad engine bearing, never a worn camshaft, never needed an overhaul though I've driven many of my many cars over 200k miles. Even after some major engine overheats over those 52 years from the rare occasional cooling system problem.

So what benefit would my engines have enjoyed had I run a synthetic all those years rather than simply the good quality conventional motor oils I have run? And by that I mean nothing more exotic than 5W-30 or 10W-30 Valvoline, Castrol, Mobil, Shell, Chevron, etc. which is all I've ever run. To hear some describe synthetics and how they're so much better than conventional motor oils, I should have had multiple engine failures by now and in fact, I should feel lucky to even make it to work and back running a conventional engine oil. :rofl:

TJGarm06 12-22-2015 04:39 PM

Here let me put it plain and simple. If your engine REQUIRED it the factory would have put it in there from day one. Some manufactures require it for good reason. As Jerry said, why haven't we had any catastrophic failures with conventional?

00silverTJ 12-22-2015 04:42 PM

51 Attachment(s)
This is the most enlightening thread I have seen in a long time. Excellent information!

j3ph3ry_j33p 12-22-2015 05:18 PM

I'm the original owner of a '95 XJ w/ the 4.0l inline6 HO engine. I am presently at 386,286 miles on my odometer. I have run Shell Rotella 15w-40 in summer and Shell Rotella 10w-40 in fall/winters since new. At 300,000 miles I learned about Prolong HD oil stabilizer and use 1qt of it with 4 qts of the Shell since then. I use Wix filters in it. The most important oil change consideration is to actually change it. I do so immediately at the 3000th mile and have never varied. At 3000 miles , the venerable inline6 4.0liter motor is not even close to broken in. Break-in will be between 20 & 40 thousand miles. I also have a rock crawler '11 JKUr that has 80 some-odd thousand miles and I do run synthetic in it (Amsoil) due to its more refined tolerances and oil passages .... Again, after as much mileage and experience as I have had with the engine you speak of ( I also have a 94 Wrangler with 120k but it was towed for 80k of those so it is an anomaly for this subject although it runs same oil as the Cherokee and at same change interval...I've also owned several other Jeeps) ,it is so robust and tank-like I believe you could dump fryer grease in the thing and it'd continue to run (do not do this) but a good 10w-40 or 15w-40 dino oil is fine ....there is no 'extended life ' BS in mine regardless - all three get changed at exactly 3000 miles like clockwork. No questions asked; filter and fresh oil , every 3000 and you're likely to be able to pass on knowing your grandchildren will be driving your old Jeep around ....
(I'd kill to have an inline6 4liter with 3000miles on it . !!)

<edit: the OP had inquired about mileage improvements and again ,note that i own three Jeeps; I don't even look at what kinda mileage the 4.0l equipped ones get but I can betcha its about 15-18mpg as each have 31" tires. The JK has 37s and when on the rocks it probably gets 8mpg ...it gets about 17 on freeway. I don't look at gas mileage affected by oil or break-in ...your talking about such miniscule miles per gallon its futile with Jeeps,really >


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