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-   -   Should I demand he take it back? (Or F my life) (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f282/should-i-demand-he-take-it-back-or-f-my-life-53208.html)

CubbieBlue 06-16-2010 09:09 PM

Should I demand he take it back? (Or F my life)
 
Long story but I feel miserable and need to vent:

Well drove out to swap a tire with a 4x4 guy today and I told him how my mechanic removed the rear track bar to solve my death wobble.

He goes - wait, he didn't install another one?

Me - nope he said it's ok

Him - he is nuts.

He actually knows the mechanic, and said he is such a off road guy he doesn't get road safety. He says he would NOT drive a jeep without a rear track bar.

Anyways on way back to home I call mechanic and talk with him about this. He feels its safe, blah blah, says he has driven all over without one, etc. Regardless, I say I am ordering one!

When I get home I notice a puddle under neath my jeep. I start to shit a brick. I look at it...I thought oil but me and my neighbor think it is definitely transmission fluid, but it seems to be coming from the transfer case. We check the trans fluid and it is over the WARM hole on the stick. My neighbor is convinced someone overfilled it and now it has blown a seal.

Regardless, now I have two issues to deal with. I called the owner of the lot I bought it from and gave him my piece. He said to take it back to the mechanic tomorrow and have him look at it, not to worry about it, etc. But HOW CAN I NOT WORRY ABOUT IT? I just made a 15k investment in (what I thought to be) a dependable vehicle. I do NOT have the money to be ******* around with this forever.

What do ya'll think - about both issues?

jpdocdave 06-16-2010 09:16 PM

15,000? what year is your jeep, we need some info. if it is a tj, since we're in the tj forum, this guy is nuts. you can't just remove a trac bar on a tj. you can however on a yj. if he did remove your trac bar on a tj, the leak could be from the t case due to the drive shaft being all over the place since the axle isn't being held center at all.

Jerry Bransford 06-16-2010 09:30 PM

That mechanic who removed your rear trackbar is clueless about the requirements of a coil spring suspension like the TJ has. While older Jeeps that used leaf springs can get away without a track bar, the TJ's factory suspension absolutely (!) depends on the track bar's presence. The TJ uses the track bar to keep the axle (there is a front and rear track bar) centered left to right under the Jeep. The TJ's coil springs are not capable of doing that on their own. Leaf springs like are used on 1995 and older Wranglers are capable of keeping the axle centered on their own without the need for the track bar.

So for any '97 or newer Wrangler, the track bar is absolutely required. It's clear that "mechanic" doesn't know jack about this stuff.

CubbieBlue 06-16-2010 09:37 PM

Scott Automotive Vehicle repair and Auto shop in Peoria, Illinois 309-633-1337

Is the mechanics site who removed the track bar. He is supposed to be a BIG Jeep guy....he used to be a tech at a Jeep dealership and now runs his own place.

It is a 2005 Wrangler X Rocky Mountain Edition. 40k miles. I JUST bought it a week ago.

This is the vehicle: 2005 Used Jeep Wrangler ROCKY MOUNTAIN 4.0 LITER at The Auto Link in Bartonville, IL, IID 5437733

I paid ~15k with the taxes, title, etc. all that stuff, plus 4 new tires, new rear control rods, and a new front track bar, (and minus a rear one!!)

CubbieBlue 06-16-2010 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 658004)
15,000? what year is your jeep, we need some info. if it is a tj, since we're in the tj forum, this guy is nuts. you can't just remove a trac bar on a tj. you can however on a yj. if he did remove your trac bar on a tj, the leak could be from the t case due to the drive shaft being all over the place since the axle isn't being held center at all.

Dude - you think? No one noticed a leak prior to this track being removed. At least they will claim that.

Now even if I just run it for a bit, then stop it, and look down it will be dripping.

Getting it towed now. Good thing I added roadside assistance to my policy literally yesterday.

Ken Steele 06-16-2010 09:40 PM

The puddle may just be from the vent on the transfer case. If you can't find where it's leaking from, that's probably what's going on with the puddle. Jerry is right about the rear sway bar. You are probably experiencing torque steer without it also. To fix your death wobble just do a search. There are volumes worth of info on it here.

CubbieBlue 06-16-2010 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 658029)
That mechanic who removed your rear trackbar is clueless about the requirements of a coil spring suspension like the TJ has. While older Jeeps that used leaf springs can get away without a track bar, the TJ's factory suspension absolutely (!) depends on the track bar's presence. The TJ uses the track bar to keep the axle (there is a front and rear track bar) centered left to right under the Jeep. The TJ's coil springs are not capable of doing that on their own. Leaf springs like are used on 1995 and older Wranglers are capable of keeping the axle centered on their own without the need for the track bar.

So for any '97 or newer Wrangler, the track bar is absolutely required. It's clear that "mechanic" doesn't know jack about this stuff.

So I've driven this thing ~100 miles without this track bar at this point. Could I have damaged other stuff pretty bad? If this jeep is going to be plagued by issues because of this (for one reason or another) I absolutely cannot afford to deal with it.

CubbieBlue 06-16-2010 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Steele (Post 658057)
The puddle may just be from the vent on the transfer case. If you can't find where it's leaking from, that's probably what's going on with the puddle. Jerry is right about the rear sway bar. You are probably experiencing torque steer without it also. To fix your death wobble just do a search. There are volumes worth of info on it here.

Well the death wobble without the track bar is gone, just a bit of bump steer remains (i am assuming that is the torque steer you refer to), I am assuming a rear ADJUSTABLE bar would keep the problem solved.

jpdocdave 06-16-2010 09:43 PM

Quote:

http://scottautomotive.com/img/content/4106_4110.gif

Superchargers

Turbo's

4x4

I'm a JEEP specialist and enthusiast!

Lift kits, Lockers, Roll cages, axle mods,and accessories..
wow.........are you sure he removed your trac bar, i'd do some more checking on the terminology of what was done.

stevens243 06-16-2010 10:00 PM

At 40K miles, maybe this "mechanic" changed the tcase fluid and didn't bother to clean up after himself. Check to see if the skid plate has a oil slick in it that may be leaking onto your driveway. If that's the case, all should be well there but I'd take it back and make him clean it up.

I cannot believe that someone would remove a rear trackbar out of a TJ. Idiocy.

CubbieBlue 06-16-2010 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 658066)
wow.........are you sure he removed your trac bar, i'd do some more checking on the terminology of what was done.

Yes. I can see the where you would install it and bolt it in.

CubbieBlue 06-16-2010 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevens243 (Post 658100)
At 40K miles, maybe this "mechanic" changed the tcase fluid and didn't bother to clean up after himself. Check to see if the skid plate has a oil slick in it that may be leaking onto your driveway. If that's the case, all should be well there but I'd take it back and make him clean it up.

I cannot believe that someone would remove a rear trackbar out of a TJ. Idiocy.

Nah dude, I wiped the skid plate CLEAR, and it keeps dripping down into it. I filled up a paper towel worth of fluid.

To be clear - is transmission the same as transfer fluid? Different? Because the trans fluid keeps showing high levels. Maybe the transfer is what is leaking all over the f'ing place. I thought the transfer fluid wouldn't drop unless I was in 4 wheel though...

jpdocdave 06-16-2010 10:18 PM

t case is always being used even in 2wd because the rear drive shaft comes out of it. and it is filled with auto trans fluid.

can you post pics of the rear suspension, i wanna see that someone actually removed a rear trac bar from a tj and sent it on its way.

CubbieBlue 06-16-2010 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdocdave (Post 658119)
t case is always being used even in 2wd because the rear drive shaft comes out of it. and it is filled with auto trans fluid.

can you post pics of the rear suspension, i wanna see that someone actually removed a rear trac bar from a tj and sent it on its way.

Tow truck just left.

I mean, I called him today and he told me to go ahead and order a "rear adjustable track bar" online if I wanted one.

The 4x4 guy I talked to today saw it and couldn't believe it. He said he have seen guys off road like that, but not drive on the road like that.

CubbieBlue 06-16-2010 10:24 PM

HOWEVER - back to my question:

I really like the Jeep. HOWEVER, if this has screwed something up long term, I DO NOT WANT IT.

If they fix this leak - however - and slap on a new track bar and tighten stuff down should I be good to go? Or will this cause me problems down the road?

00FORESTSAHARA 06-16-2010 11:17 PM

well if your track bar was removed and your axle has been shifting i would:
check to make sure your springs are seated properly
check the bushing on your shocks and control arms for irreagular wear
after only 100 miles it shouldn't have affected them that bad..
but if it screwed wit your T-case its possible

solman 06-16-2010 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CubbieBlue (Post 658126)
HOWEVER - back to my question:

I really like the Jeep. HOWEVER, if this has screwed something up long term, I DO NOT WANT IT.

If they fix this leak - however - and slap on a new track bar and tighten stuff down should I be good to go? Or will this cause me problems down the road?

Once the leak is fixed and the new track bar is installed you should be fine. As for the death wobble I would complain to the dealer you got it from for selling a vehicle with an unsafe condition. If you get no help from the dealer then there is tons of info on the net that will help you fix it. It may be as simple as getting a $40 front end alignment.
BTW, nice looking jeep!

rrich 06-16-2010 11:58 PM

Have a look at the insides of the rear tires - if the axle moves very far, the inside of the tire can rub the frame. They may be a deep unsafe gouge in the tires.

CubbieBlue 06-17-2010 09:18 AM

Bumping this up so guys in the morning may see and comment on it..

cavediverjc 06-17-2010 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CubbieBlue (Post 658124)
Tow truck just left.

I mean, I called him today and he told me to go ahead and order a "rear adjustable track bar" online if I wanted one.

The 4x4 guy I talked to today saw it and couldn't believe it. He said he have seen guys off road like that, but not drive on the road like that.

Not without a trackbar, unless the rear suspension is triangulated. Some people offroad without a rear SWAYBAR, but not without a rear trackbar. That's just begging for breakage when offroad. I think your 4x4 guy has his head up his bum......

Pontiackid87 06-17-2010 10:37 AM

I wouldent try and take it back. It all depends on how much time you have had it. most dealerships have a 3 day return policy but if yours dosent they are not legaly obligated to take it back its technecley not a new car so you cant lemonlaw it and the dealership is only suposed to make it that it will pass inspection.

PTaylor 06-17-2010 10:40 AM

You got to be careful and use your head when buying a car. very careful when buying a used car. extremely careful when buying a used off road vehicle like a Jeep. Many people use Jeeps like they are tanks, and dog them out.

AfterMath 06-17-2010 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pontiackid87 (Post 658575)
technecley not a new car so you cant lemonlaw it and the dealership is only suposed to make it that it will pass inspection.

Um...lemon laws cover all vehicle sales (private, dealership, etc) for up to 30 days.

Edit* - Depending on state. Here in NY you have 30 days. All states have some form of Lemon Laws, some up to 90 days I think?

Anyways, the only way for a person that sold a lemon to get out of the Lemon Law is to have "Sold As Is" as part of the deal. If the vehicle is sold as is, Lemon Law does not apply.

Maddogmick 06-17-2010 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AfterMath (Post 658580)
Um...lemon laws cover all vehicle sales (private, dealership, etc) for up to 30 days.

Edit* - Depending on state. Here in NY you have 30 days. All states have some form of Lemon Laws, some up to 90 days I think?

Anyways, the only way for a person that sold a lemon to get out of the Lemon Law is to have "Sold As Is" as part of the deal. If the vehicle is sold as is, Lemon Law does not apply.

I actually replaced a vehicle under the lemon law 2 years after i had it from new as the same problem kept happening.
They took it back full price and removed all the added stuff into the new vehicle.
All it took was a letter from my lawyer.

Mick

TJeepman 06-17-2010 11:12 AM

No track bar, can't believe it. Jeeps are hard enough to hold on the road without messing with that critical "stability" mechanism. Your Mechanic set you adrift, so to speak.
From this site:
Quote:

The factory Track bars locate the body in relation to the axle. It is located at the framerails and runs down to the axles.
When a jeep is lifted, the axles shift sideways. This is definitely noticeable with lifts at or over 3". This 'bar bind' causes the chassis and axle to continuously "tug" against each other resulting in uneven ride height (side-to-side), chassis / frame misalignment and "roll and yaw". An adjustable front track bar is your best option, as opposed to using a relocation bracket particularly on the front or in the rear on lifts over 2.5 inches.... since the bar's arc-of-travel must remain in-sync with the drag link's arc-of-travel or steering wheel "kick" will result.

Our track bars eliminate these problems by mounting it in the original location and having an adjustable tie rod end to accommodate up to 6" of lift on Jeeps thru 2006.
Do you still have a rear sway bar? It is a small diameter bar that actually has a curve in it where it goes over the rear differential (to the front of the axle that it is bushinged to) and has links at each end connecting it to the frame.

Does the Mechanic actually work for the Dealer? a Jeep Dealer? Sounds like you should keep the Dealer responsible. The Salesperson seems to want to downplay the poor advice/service from the Mechanic.

CubbieBlue 06-17-2010 11:19 AM

Wellllll...turns out that the leak was from the speedo seal, as the gear had just been replaced. Ordering track bar now though.

CubbieBlue 06-17-2010 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJeepman (Post 658602)
No track bar, can't believe it. Jeeps are hard enough to hold on the road without messing with that critical "stability" mechanism. Your Mechanic set you adrift, so to speak.
From this site:


Do you still have a rear sway bar? It is a small diameter bar that actually has a curve in it where it goes over the rear differential (to the front of the axle that it is bushinged to) and has links at each end connecting it to the frame.

Does the Mechanic actually work for the Dealer? a Jeep Dealer? Sounds like you should keep the Dealer responsible. The Salesperson seems to want to downplay the poor advice/service from the Mechanic.

No the mechanic does not work for the dealer I got it from, but he is a former Jeep dealer mechanic and says he teaches Jeep classes, etc.

Yes it still has a rear sway bar.

CubbieBlue 06-17-2010 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AfterMath (Post 658580)
Um...lemon laws cover all vehicle sales (private, dealership, etc) for up to 30 days.

Edit* - Depending on state. Here in NY you have 30 days. All states have some form of Lemon Laws, some up to 90 days I think?

Anyways, the only way for a person that sold a lemon to get out of the Lemon Law is to have "Sold As Is" as part of the deal. If the vehicle is sold as is, Lemon Law does not apply.

In illinois lemon only applys to new cars from a dealership

TJeepman 06-17-2010 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CubbieBlue (Post 658608)
Wellllll...turns out that the leak was from the speedo seal, as the gear had just been replaced. Ordering track bar now though.

One problem solved. :deadhorse: What did they do with your old track bar?

CubbieBlue 06-17-2010 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJeepman (Post 658611)
One problem solved. :deadhorse: What did they do with your old track bar?

Probably sitting in a pile of trackbars lol. I need an adjustable one though or the DW will come back. It was causing the rear end to bind up


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