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Vaultzz 06-18-2010 03:29 PM

Need Help with court
 
:wavey: Got my first Jeep related ticket today :banghead:

He pulled me over for having my windshield down and secure. However the guy was really nice and actually encouraged me to fight it in court since "my argument had just as much force as his"

So I already have the pa laws regarding review mirrors and I win that part. and I know I'll win the part about the windshield I just need some help getting the law documentation.

My argument is more or less: The vehicle was origionaly (and is still) designed to be able to fold the windshield down. Also according to PA law motorcyclists are required to have a windshield as well and they aren't required to wear helmets. Now I can bring up over 50 street legal motorcycles that DO NOT have a whidshield.

And to help my case I was wearing DOT approved safety sunglasses.

To top it off there is no reference of a law on the ticket and the description on the notes says and I quote, "Operated Jeep on highway w/ safety glass (windshield) secured to hood." Now according to that my windshield is secured to my hood but it does not describe where it is secured or that it was folded down. I doubt that that would do anything in court but its still there.

Also the ticket has a HUGE faded VOID written across it... so I'm confused

Help me stick it to the man guys :) I'm not paying a $109 ticket for something this stupid

drivebytruckerz 06-18-2010 03:36 PM

Show up at your court date.. you know what happens if you lose? You pay $109.00.. which you would have to do anyway.

Vaultzz 06-18-2010 03:38 PM

I plan on showing up, but that doesn't help me argue the case :p

drivebytruckerz 06-18-2010 03:39 PM

Your argument was sound already.. just state what happened. Also.. bring the safety glasses you were wearing with you to court, as well as pictures of your jeep with window up and down printed out. The part about the motorcycles is a great argument.

Vaultzz 06-18-2010 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drivebytruckerz (Post 660168)
Also.. bring the safety glasses you were wearing with you to court, as well as pictures of your jeep with window up and down printed out. The part about the motorcycles is a great argument.

Now thats what I'm looking for :D I wouldn't have thought to bring pictures inside I would have just brought my Jeep

cheli 06-18-2010 03:43 PM

Sometimes its cheaper to pay the fine, if you go to court, there is a chance they will end adding court cost and such on top of the initial fine, unless you feel you were in the right.

daggo66 06-18-2010 03:50 PM

If he thought you had a sound argument, why he he issue a summons? Personally I think it was pretty dumb to drive on the road with the windshield down. Off road yes, but not on.

drivebytruckerz 06-18-2010 03:54 PM

He should have given you a warning. He was probably meeting a quota.

Twitch Boy 06-18-2010 03:59 PM

IANAL, but I'd say go to court.

First off, if the cop doesn't show up, you walk, and a lot of times they have better things to do with their time than sit in court and haggle over a ticket.

Overall, it sounds to me like he was unsure of the situation and decided to write the ticket just to keep up appearances for his superiors - possibly a new guy trying to do things by the book to look good. If this is the case and he didn't really care about the issue, he might just no-show or concede the ticket once he sees your evidence.

This is what the court system is for - to interpret stuff like this.

Geoff@Bestop 06-18-2010 04:00 PM

Vaultzz:
I do NOT think your motorcycle argument is all that compelling. If you are correct, then it just means they need to start arresting motorcyclists, not let you off the hook. It's a little bit like saying "but all the other kids jump off the bridge...."

Also, unfortunately, I believe that Jeep has said for years that the windshield should not be folded down when the vehicle is on a public road. So the vehicle design argument may not work all that well either.

The "fine print" argument about how the ticket is written and the way it's printed may be tough to argue as well. Judges get really ticked off about people trying to use small details as a way to avoid the ticket.

How big is the city/county? In my experience, if it's a bigger location, they will plea-bargain you out to something really quickly, mostly to save time. I've had speeding tickets reduced to "unsafe equipment," (no points, about 1/3 the fine) just because the cop wrote "polite guy" on the ticket. And to keep me from going before the judge and wasting time.

Good Luck

JIMBOX 06-18-2010 04:05 PM

:cool: Heh Heh, if I was the judge, I'd just hang ya !!

:rofl::rofl: JIMBO

Vaultzz 06-18-2010 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff@Bestop (Post 660191)
Vaultzz:
1. I do NOT think your motorcycle argument is all that compelling. If you are correct, then it just means they need to start arresting motorcyclists, not let you off the hook. It's a little bit like saying "but all the other kids jump off the bridge...."

2. Also, unfortunately, I believe that Jeep has said for years that the windshield should not be folded down when the vehicle is on a public road. So the vehicle design argument may not work all that well either.

3. The "fine print" argument about how the ticket is written and the way it's printed may be tough to argue as well. Judges get really ticked off about people trying to use small details as a way to avoid the ticket.

4. How big is the city/county? In my experience, if it's a bigger location, they will plea-bargain you out to something really quickly, mostly to save time. I've had speeding tickets reduced to "unsafe equipment," (no points, about 1/3 the fine) just because the cop wrote "polite guy" on the ticket. And to keep me from going before the judge and wasting time.

Good Luck

1. I believe the motorcycle argument is solid. Why should one privately owned street legal vehicle be allowed to ignore a state law and another should be forced to follow it? Thats discrimination.

2. I've been through all the PA state laws regarding vehicles, even if Chrysler advised to not use the vehicle on road with the windshield folded theres no law prohibiting it

3. Small details aside, the ticked has a huge faded VOID written on it

4. I'm not sure how big the county is I'll have to find out

Geoff@Bestop 06-18-2010 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaultzz (Post 660238)
1. I believe the motorcycle argument is solid. Why should one privately owned street legal vehicle be allowed to ignore a state law and another should be forced to follow it? Thats discrimination.

The best that argument will get you is a pat on the back and a chance to appeal. Local courts do not make decisions on the validity or constitutionality of a law. They just say "that's the law, you broke it." Appeals courts make decisions on validity of laws.

Quote:

2. I've been through all the PA state laws regarding vehicles, even if Chrysler advised to not use the vehicle on road with the windshield folded theres no law prohibiting it
That's a good argument. But there may be an over-riding "unsafe vehicle" regulation that the officer is using. In other words, there's no specific law saying I can't drive with a milk crate instead of a seat. But it's an unsafe vehicle violation, and everyone knows it.

Quote:

3. Small details aside, the ticked has a huge faded VOID written on it
I can't answer that at all. I'd just be surprised to find an office who made a mistake like that. And I can't imagine why anyone would have "voided" ticket books. I'm thinking there's a reason for it, and it ain't "get out of jail free."

Hey - I'm not trying to talk you out of fighting this. I think everyone should fight tickets, just to see how the system works. Just to exercise your rights. Just for the civics lesson.

Just trying to be a devil's advocate, and make your arguments better.

Vaultzz 06-18-2010 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff@Bestop (Post 660250)
Hey - I'm not trying to talk you out of fighting this. I think everyone should fight tickets, just to see how the system works. Just to exercise your rights. Just for the civics lesson.

Just trying to be a devil's advocate, and make your arguments better.

Completely understandable :)

medic2936 06-18-2010 05:18 PM

Just a small thought I had. If you do take it to court and you take the safety glasses remember to bring some type of documentation to prove they are DOT approved safety glasses. It might help.

Vaultzz 06-18-2010 05:26 PM

I actually have the documentation in my glove box, but he cop didn't ask for it

birdhunter 06-18-2010 05:38 PM

I have heard of people in your state
getting tickets for going doorless.
Something about orig safety equipment
They could spin that as the windshield
being down also
By your reasoning motorcycles would
need seatbelts???

tiny terror 06-18-2010 06:05 PM

The void is most likely so the ticket cannot be scanned and changed.

domeshots 06-18-2010 06:13 PM

next time just wear a full racing helmet, tear off's, and a mouth guard. i would love to those pigs try to give you a ticket in that get up :rofl:


O and take a picture and put it on WF

GroundHawg 06-18-2010 06:49 PM

I don't think you did anything wrong. I hate laws like this. Like we actually need the state to protect us from ourselves. Vault did nothing wrong. That's not going to hurt anyone. He even took an extra precaution to wear safety glasses.

PA is seriously a bunch of street Nazis. No lie, I'd tell them to shove that ticket up their a**.

No don't. I did that with a wheelin' ticket...actually it was criminal trespassing and destruction of property. I went to court, I wanted to fight it saying I was singled out for using a Jeep, but little quads and bikes run the trail, as do hikers. They don't get tickets. But I do? WTF? Apparently the cop said I was rude and hostile, whatever that means. I called BS and was upset and swearing at the cops, but I wasn't hostile.

In a nutshell, I didn't even get to talk :rofl: he did knock off my destruction citation and I paid $100 for trespassing. Between that and skateboarding back in the day, I've gotten around 6 or 7 of those tickets.

It's wrong IMO, but I think you're f'ed.

Don't feel bad though. PA's going to nail me for no mirrors sooner or later

N39-W120 06-18-2010 06:54 PM

I think you may be screwed if you take it to court.... PA Vehicle code:

4526. Safety glass.
(a) Safety glass required
.--It is unlawful to sell or to operate on any highway in this Commonwealth any vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1934, and registered in this Commonwealth unless the vehicle is equipped with safety glass or similar material, which is in compliance with regulations promulgated by the department, wherever transparent or translucent material is used in the vehicle in doors, windows, windshields and wings.

If you have a clean record your best chance is to take a copy of that, present it to the Judge, apologize for your indescression and beg for a "probation" peroid.

Vaultzz 06-18-2010 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N39-W120 (Post 660328)
I think you may be screwed if you take it to court.... PA Vehicle code:

4526. Safety glass.
(a) Safety glass required
.--It is unlawful to sell or to operate on any highway in this Commonwealth any vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1934, and registered in this Commonwealth unless the vehicle is equipped with safety glass or similar material, which is in compliance with regulations promulgated by the department, wherever transparent or translucent material is used in the vehicle in doors, windows, windshields and wings.

If you have a clean record your best chance is to take a copy of that, present it to the Judge, apologize for your indescression and beg for a "probation" peroid.

Thats exactly what I just talked to the cop about (I got the ticket nulled btw :D)

He told me that "in compliance with regulations promulgated by the department" refers to § 175.80. Inspection procedure. section F

Quote:

(2) Check glazing.

(i) Reject if any of the following apply:

(A) Approved safety glazing is not used in every windshield, window and wing.

(B) A sign, poster or other material whose design prevents a driver from seeing through the material, obstructs, obscures or impairs the driver’s clear view of the highway or an intersecting highway. Under FMVSS No. 205, this restriction does not apply to the rear side windows, rear wings or rear window of trucks or multi-purpose passenger vehicles.

(C) A sign, poster or other material, whose design prevents a driver from seeing through the material, extends more than 3 1/2 inches from the lowest exposed portion of the rear window, rear side windows or rear wings of a passenger car.

(D) A vehicle displays a sticker other than those prescribed under § 175.67(c) (relating to glazing), or displays a parking sticker in a location described in § 175.67(d).

(E) Glass is shattered or broken or has exposed sharp edges.

(F) The windshield is removed.
Now the windshield wasn't removed, it was simply folded. I believe that I could fight this is court if necessary, and I do plan to get legal authority to fold my windshield

GroundHawg 06-18-2010 07:53 PM

You should be allowed. The windshield by design, stock, no modification, can fold down. It's not like a Pirate Ship Jeep Waggy with the roof and doors sawed off.

Laws suck

Pontiackid87 06-18-2010 08:04 PM

In pa it is illegal to have your windshield folded down. its a screwed up rule but they do strictley enforce it. reason for it being is say your behind some tractor trailer and it kicks up a rock at you. they'll come at you with the speed of a bullett and if you get knocked unconciusis (spelling) you could lose control of your jeep and cause some more damage. The sad part is there more worried about you damageing property rather than hurting yourself but yes it is illegal. and street bikes do have a windshield's but the law for a street bike it it dosent have to be clear it just has to be there to protect your instrumentation's on the bike.. take it to court and state you dident know it was illegal to have your windshield down but to answer your question on the road it is illegal.

Vaultzz 06-18-2010 08:08 PM

They say its illegal, following state laws theres nothing saying that I can't and If you want I'll post up numerous pictures and links to street bikes that have no windshields and if a rock came at the windshield at the speed of a bullet then theres no way in hell that its going to stop at the windshield, th rock would still hit me anyways

RatherBNarizona 06-18-2010 09:14 PM

Not trying to be the bad guy, but I know here the cop does NOT need to be present in court. Most do because they get overtime pay for it. Not sure about your state, have to check.

Pontiackid87 06-18-2010 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaultzz (Post 660404)
They say its illegal, following state laws theres nothing saying that I can't and If you want I'll post up numerous pictures and links to street bikes that have no windshields and if a rock came at the windshield at the speed of a bullet then theres no way in hell that its going to stop at the windshield, th rock would still hit me anyways


Well maby not as fast as a bullett but they can still shoot up pretty fast and if its a big enough one it can knock someone out if it hits ya right. I cant really speek on street bikes because i never really got into motorcycle inspection but bikes are able to get away with a lot more than a car can. From what i understand they need to have some kind of cowel on the front of the street bike to protect the instermentation there windshield is not really there for protection of the rider this is why whenever your on a bike you need to have some kind of sunglasses on. Im not a licenced inspection mechanic in PA but i have study'ed PA inspection throughley and know most of the in's and outs of it... the its a stupied rule but for any motor vehical on the road it has to have some kind windshield this is why when in PA if your in an accident if your windshield is damaged 9 times out of 10 they wont let you drive the vehical away even if it is driveable. Rule of thumb for windshield cracks and inspection is if your windshield wipers pass over the crack it fails inspection. Im not tryin to be an a$4hole here im just trying to tell you before you go into court that having your windshield down on a public roadway at least in PA is illegal lol hell if i wanted to i could get my inspection licence but by law im not allowed to inspect my own cars and i dont want to be a mechanic for a living so theres no point in getting it:D

Pontiackid87 06-18-2010 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RatherBNmexico (Post 660446)
Not trying to be the bad guy, but I know here the cop does NOT need to be present in court. Most do because they get overtime pay for it. Not sure about your state, have to check.

PA all county's except for philly's Traffic court (1st hearing only) the arresting officer has to be present at the hearing. PA's law is and for some reason philly dosent apply to this. You have the right to face your accuser in court in this case the officer.

Vaultzz 06-18-2010 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaultzz (Post 660337)
(I got the ticket nulled btw :D)

Just to clarify :) I'm still going to go talk to someone more powerful at a state police station and present my case and get a final answer before I start my appeal :D

Ageless Stranger 06-19-2010 12:33 AM

Glad they tore it up Vaultzz. :D


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