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-   -   TJ died with no warning and no codes??? (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/tj-died-with-no-warning-and-no-codes-73935.html)

Keiger 12-30-2010 05:47 PM

TJ died with no warning and no codes???
 
So its been awesome weather here all winter until today and I get the call that the TJ died in the road. O-yea its snowing over 8" on the roads and its 0*.
So my wife ran down to the post office, she put gas in and went about 3 miles and it just died in the road.
I got down there and it wants to start but will only sputter and die.
I have checked for codes and there are none.
Could it be the gas? We have gotten gas here for over 10 years and never had a problem.
Its a 2000 and never had a single problem? Any thoughs?

The fun was rope towing it home on the snow and ice up roads, with a wife that not very keen on dead sticking a Jeep with 33's on thourgh the mountain roads. We had a few pucker factors, I for got to tell her not to mash the brakes on me.:eek:

JeremyW 12-30-2010 05:57 PM

I have had fuel pumps die like this on older cars.......never my TJ though.

Jerry Bransford 12-30-2010 06:57 PM

The way to tell if there is fuel in the system is by checking for fuel pressure and the presence of fuel at the fuel injector fuel rail on the driver's side of the engine. This is what all of your fuel injectors are plugged into and what provides their fuel.

There is a Shraeder valve, like an overgrown tire inflation valve, on the fuel rail. It should be located kinda toward the front of the fuel rail, with a black black plastic cap screwed onto it. Unscrew the cap and the valve will have a little push-pin in it just like a tire valve does. Place an absorbant rag underneath and then press on the pin to see if gasoline sprays out, it won't spray a huge amount so no worries. If there is fuel and fuel pressure present in the fuel rail, it's not the fuel pump.

If there is no fuel pressure when you check, cycle the ignition key a few times to allow the fuel pump to pump and send fuel up to the fuel rail. If you're in a quiet location when you do this, you should hear the fuel pump cycle on for about 2 seconds and then shut off. If there was no fuel pressure at the Schaeder valve, you'll need to cycle the fuel pump on multiple times to give it enough "on time" so it can get the fuel up to the fuel rail. Once that happens and you verify the presence of fuel pressure at the fuel rail, try starting it.

If there is fuel pressure at the rail and it doesn't start, I'd next suspect the Crankshaft Postition Sensor or the Camshaft Position Sensor. Both of which provide critical timing signals for the computer and if either is missing, the engine will die suddenly.

notuck 12-30-2010 07:11 PM

Sounds just like what mine did. Water in the fuel. Just like you, I had bought gas at this place for years without a problem, but seals on the stations fill valves can go bad. With heavy snow and runoff they could have water in their fuel tanks. Figured out what it was, called the station and told them what had happened and they were more than happy to send a wrecker to get it and had it towed to be fixed at their cost. Mine wasn't the only one they got to pay for, and they quickly shut down that grade of fuel to save anyone else from having a problem.

Keiger 12-30-2010 08:09 PM

Notuck, just call them and they have heard nothing.

Jerry thank you for all the info. I will check that out tonight or tomorrow and get back here and let you know what I find out. Thanks for the help. Keig

Keiger 12-30-2010 08:28 PM

So I could not stand it and went down and check out as per Jerry B. recommendation and there is no fuel coming out of the valve. "Skippy"
I did cycle the key numerous times and still not a drop.
So I am guessing I need a new fuel pump?
So where is a good place to buy one of said dead parts.

crazyredneck 12-30-2010 08:49 PM

if you can, before you spend the money on a fuel pump, find a heated garage to "store" the jeep in at least overnight if not a day or two. then try to fire it up. if it does fire up then you have water in the fuel, and it just simply froze, plugging the line.

If it works, i would recomend putting a fuel treatment product in your fuel like "heat".

Keiger 12-30-2010 10:51 PM

Crazy, that is a great idea! It is in my heated garage now I will try and start it in the am. Fingers crossed and JD in the glass.

Gorving3 12-30-2010 11:02 PM

If these in-tank fuel pumps can fail so easily and maybe leave you stranded out in the boonies miles from nowhere, would it be advisable to install an electric pump under the hood before the problem rears its ugly head? Can an electric pump work if the in-tank pump fails?
My 2001 Wrangler only has 59,000 miles on it and I thought I could expect many more trouble-free miles but after reading several of these posts about failing fuel pumps I'm beginning to wonder.

Keiger 12-30-2010 11:12 PM

Gorving, thats a great thought, you had better get on it mine only has 54,000 on it and it has a gas tank skid that has not been used in a few years.

Keiger 12-31-2010 11:53 AM

Well after spending all night in the heated garage, still no start and now I can't even get it to sputter.
So is there a good place to order a fuel pump. Can I use aftermarket or do I need to get it from Jeep?

Jerry Bransford 12-31-2010 11:54 AM

So there's no fuel pressure in the fuel rail no matter what you do with cycling the ignition key as suggested?

If you can't get any fuel pressure at all, you can get one pretty inexpensively from www.rockauto.com as I did and just installed last week. I got the Spectra fuel pump for $160 which includes a new fuel pressure regulator and fuel gauge sender. So in addition to it fixing my slow start problem, my fue gauge is finally accurate again! :)

Keiger 12-31-2010 12:23 PM

Thanks Jerry for all the help.
Got to thinking a bit, and for the past 3 weeks I have been doing quite a bit of highway driving in the jeep and it has been idling high and not drooping down in the revs when I shift. I had thought it was my thumb throttle hanging up, then I checked the foot cable and cleaned it too but it was still sticking from time to time. Could that have been a tattle tale sign of the pump starting to go?

Was looking through sites and came across for an alternative for a pump. Does this work and if so what do you do with the one in the tank?
Mallory Fuel Pump - Universal Product Clearance
Universal


MALLORY 250 SERIES HIGH PERFORMANCE ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP, IN-LINE -- A high pressure 12-volt fuel pump that delivers 250 plus GPH free flow at 12.5 volts and 230 plus GPH at 6 PSI; Number 8AN inlet and outlet port, number 8AN return port; Includes a complete hardware package for easy mounting; Features precision CNC-machined pump housing to ensure longer life than cast housings; Its gerotor design reduces noise versus louder vane and turbine pumps and eliminates vane breakage problems; All its aluminum components are anodized for corrosion and wear resistance; Service parts available for use with alcohol/methanol applications; For gasoline; Use regulator part number 4200, 4201, 4300M, 4301, or 4316M for best performance; With Mallory's 1-year limited warranty.
Type: Universal Product Clearance

Jerry Bransford 12-31-2010 12:28 PM

That won't work, you need the type of fuel pump the TJ has inside the fuel pump. Plus it'd take longer to install that type of pump and get it working than it would to simply drop the tank and install the correct pump. It can be done in an hour with nothing more than a 1/2" wrench.

Keiger 12-31-2010 12:45 PM

Very good, well looks like rockauto will be getting 233.45 and the Hell Bitch will be getting a new fuel pump.
I guess I cant complain to much this is the first issue I have had with her in 11 years. I should probably do a tune up too.

Jerry Bransford 12-31-2010 12:48 PM

$233? Did they not have the same brand Spectra pump in stock for your Jeep that I found for $160 for my '04? Airtex is the cheap pump that I would go with.

Keiger 12-31-2010 12:52 PM

They have a bosh Kit for 130.00 and a bosh assembly for 320.00
The one I am looking at is the carter assembly for 233

Keiger 12-31-2010 12:58 PM

I just found a Spectra Fuel Pump at OvernightAutoParts for 189.00

Jerry Bransford 12-31-2010 01:10 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I almost forgot, you do need a strap wrench to get the fuel pump's big nylon plastic lock-down ring off and then back on tightly enough again.

Any strap wrench like this one will work...

http://www.rothenberger-usa.com/file...rap_Wrench.jpg

It's for that big white ring you see below that holds the fuel pump in the tank.

mtbikbob 12-31-2010 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford (Post 956283)
I almost forgot, you do need a strap wrench to get the fuel pump's big nylon plastic lock-down ring off and then back on tightly enough again.

Any strap wrench like this one will work...

http://www.rothenberger-usa.com/file...rap_Wrench.jpg

It's for that big white ring you see below that holds the fuel pump in the tank.


Geezsh.... now you tell us.

Just kidding. Thanks for the info Jerry. I am learning lots on this forum.

BobO

Jerry Bransford 12-31-2010 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtbikbob (Post 956297)
I am learning lots on this forum.

I learn cool stuff every day about our Jeeps, that's why I love the forums too. I'm up to a BA in Jeepology now with all the years I've been learning stuff on these Jeep forums., it's the guys with their MAs and PhDs in Jeepology like mrblaine that never cease to amaze me. :)

NHrubicon 12-31-2010 01:49 PM

Be super careful with the 'snap clips' on the hoses...my 03 died the same way...was acting funny at idle and then out of town it died. First thing we tried was just a Napa replacement fuel pump, and I broke one of those clips...that didn't work right, back in on a tow truck and let the mechanic replace the ENTIRE assembly that goes in the fuel tank...and he had to buy something with the same clips on it just to salvage the clip needed for secure hose..they are not 'slide' on ends. So be careful. Use a floor jack to hold the weight of that gas tank when you drop it-gas WEIGHS a lot and if your tank isn't empty, it's going to be freekin' HEAVY when you are laying under there trying to drop it!

Keiger 12-31-2010 01:53 PM

Ahhh, I will get one of those too.
NH, thanks. Yea my wife just put in about 10 gallons 3miles before it died. I think I will drain some out, and get a friend to help.
Go figure I have been off work pretty much the last 2 weeks and on the 3rd I am hammerd for the next 3 weeks.

Keiger 12-31-2010 02:31 PM

So is this everything I need?
Overnight AutoParts Catalog - Spectra Fuel Pump 4294963365 1557&mk=Jeep&md=TJ&y=2000&Nr=OR(AND(make:Jeep,mode l:TJ,year:2000),AND(universal:1))

burton160w 12-31-2010 04:36 PM

It is, and there is a fantastic thread that some power user wrote on here all about how to go about doing the swap!

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/jeep...ing-53554.html

There was his problem. He faced an issue similar to yours!

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/how-...ter-52353.html

And there is guide on how he fixed a clogged intake, but the swap for the fuel pump is exactly the same!

When you're unscrewing the locking cap, just take your time undoing it. Then when putting it back on, MAKE SURE it's seated properly. I didn't use a strap wrench, instead I used a plastic handled punch. It worked fine.

Jerry Bransford 12-31-2010 04:40 PM

Just double checking, the Spectra p/n I came up with for your 2000 is SPISP7115M. Is that the p/n you're about to order?

Don't panic when you insert it down into the fuel tank and it seems too tall to fit, it is spring loaded so push it down against the spring until the gasket seals. You'll need to seat the gasket into the tank opening with your fingers as you push down on the pump. Be careful to insert it so the fuel float arm doesn't get bent or hung up.

Keiger 12-31-2010 05:39 PM

Hey Jerry thats the one. Thanks everyone for all the help and tips. I will let you know how it went most likely next week. Keig

Keiger 01-11-2011 10:04 PM

Update on problem solved
 
So it went pretty easy and the tanked droped out. After removing the pump I got to looking and noticed the wire shorted out inside the tank.
After getting it instaled it still would not start and looking at the wires again and thinking they shorted out. I pulled out the fuel pump fuse and it had blowen too. Quick change the fuse and she roared to life.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/attachm...3/img_5433.jpg

So how is it this thing did not blow up like a bomb?

So a few things that I used to get it in and out.

Dropping the tank out full of fuel, I borrowed my buddys ATV lift. Man this was awesome no balancing act on a floor jack and you could move it in and out with ease.

I had no strap wrench for the big plastic nut on top of the fuel pump so I used a Quick clamp to twist it off, it worked great and saved me from having to spend more money.
Thanks again for everyones help and tips. Keig


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